New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[Diagramdude]

Don’t forget you get a voxcaster and the sergeant gets a plasma pistol and power sword.

 

Minmaxed 60pt infantry squad load out is now

 

Sergeant with plasma pistol and power sword

Voxcaster with lasgun

Special weapon trooper with melta or plasma gun

Heavy weapons squad with lascannon

5 lasgun troopers

 

This full kit would have cost 100pts per squad before the update.

[OldWherewolf]

Goonhammer has this clarification from the War Zone Nachmuch DT Mission pack:
 

Q: Can I include Militarum Tempestus units in the same army as
units from another Regiment (e.g. Cadian)?
A: Yes. Though Militarum Tempestus is a sub-faction keyword, it is
not a keyword that is selected by the player (i.e. it is not presented
within angular brackets), and so is exempt from the rules that
require every unit that has a selectable keyword to have the same
selectable keyword. Note though that if the Militarum Tempestus
units are using the Ordo Tempestus rules from Psychic Awakening:
The Greater Good (which gives them the <Tempestus Regiment>
keyword), then all Militarum Tempestus units from your army
must be from the same Tempestus Regiment.

From the reading of "is exempt from the rules that require every unit that has a selectable keyword to have the same selectable keyword".

 

From the reading, scions don't stop the auto-wounding on 6s, but they don't get it either.

[Galron]

Enjoy it while it lasts. I am looking forward to having my nicely painted red coats on the field again. With Battle scribe you just add a plasma or melta gun and boom you are at 60 and then simply equip each WYSIWYG. I am still using my vet squads since they havs BS3+ and have three special weapons. I usually give them an LT with the knife of Tsugamama and throw them and a second vet squad in reserves and come up behind enemy lines to plasma things in the back. As for standard squads though most of my line squads have lascannons and plasma as standard. Might have to build up a few dudes with power swords. My 500 point will have 2 heavy weapon squads with mortars. 6d6 shots  averaging 18, hitting on 9 and getting 2 or 4 6s. Maybe not great but there are ways to improve on this. At 500 any kills are a good thing. 

[ScionOfCorlesia]

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor. 

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders. 

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword. 

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders. 

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor. 

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So I’m seeing a lot of people talking about lascannons as the go to for their infantry squad, but HotE I think just really rewards getting as many shots as possible, so maybe hvy bolters just became king of heavy weapons?

 

3 chances to roll one or more 6s vs 1 or 2 chances. If you don’t get the 6, it’s still a decently strong gun with AP-1

 

They killed the autocannon even mor

Edited April 15, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule the older kit isn’t.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[ScionOfCorlesia]

 

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

 

 

I'll admit to being abit biased! Ha.

 

Honestly I can believe that's the case, but as much as I love some grimdark I'd rather hold out some hope that it's not come down to that. If it has? Well.. call me KasrkinOfCorlesia!

[MrKoolPants]

 

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule the older kit isn’t.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

Honestly that’s a pretty good read on the situation. Maybe they’ll do something wild and give them ObSec, and we can run full Kasrkin/Shock Troops armies.

 

I’m also hoping the models look good and aren’t $70 per kit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule the older kit isn’t.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

Honestly that’s a pretty good read on the situation. Maybe they’ll do something wild and give them ObSec, and we can run full Kasrkin/Shock Troops armies.

 

I’m also hoping the models look good and aren’t $70 per kit.

i’ll bet 55-70 for 5 models.

Probably won’t get OBSEC naturally but I could see a 1CP strat to do it for a turn

[MrKoolPants]

 

 

 

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule the older kit isn’t.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

Honestly that’s a pretty good read on the situation. Maybe they’ll do something wild and give them ObSec, and we can run full Kasrkin/Shock Troops armies.

 

I’m also hoping the models look good and aren’t $70 per kit.

i’ll bet 55-70 for 5 models.

Probably won’t get OBSEC naturally but I could see a 1CP strat to do it for a turn

Oh that would be cool. Or maybe on the turn they arrive. Or on a turn in which they kill an enemy model on the same objective. Really lean into the “shock troops” stuff.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

Just gonna' throw my two pence in on the Scions and Hammer of the Emperor.

 

Scions treat <Tempestus Regiment> as <Regiment> otherwise we wouldn't be able to use orders.

It's commonly accepted we can use orders despite not having this <Regiment> keyword/it being replaced by the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Why is this different? By the logic that we're unable to benefit from Hammer of the Emperor we also shouldn't be able to use orders.

 

I would assume the rule as intended would be that Scions DO get the Hammer of the Emperor.

I would also assume there'll be a FAQ shortly as this has been argued over Discord/Facebook groups ever since the dataslate update dropped.

your username indicates you might be a bit biased lol.

 

We know Kasrkin are coming soon, and many theorize that they’ll get <regiment> straight up, so how do you incentivize people to buy the new kit that fills a similar if not identical role to another older kit? Easy, make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule the older kit isn’t.

 

Despite the name, GW is not about the game, GW is about selling minis. They’ve invested a lot of money in making the new Kasrkin sculpts they’re going to want to sell them.

Honestly that’s a pretty good read on the situation. Maybe they’ll do something wild and give them ObSec, and we can run full Kasrkin/Shock Troops armies.

 

I’m also hoping the models look good and aren’t $70 per kit.

i’ll bet 55-70 for 5 models.

Probably won’t get OBSEC naturally but I could see a 1CP strat to do it for a turn

Oh that would be cool. Or maybe on the turn they arrive. Or on a turn in which they kill an enemy model on the same objective. Really lean into the “shock troops” stuff.

it would make sense, but GW isn’t really known for making sense.

 

Personally I think OBSEC makes more sense on elite units than on on troops.

 

Like why do standard troopers have OBSEC, when veterans don’t?

[War of the Eagle]

Eh, troops have it to encourage their use as strictly a game mechanic. If you wanted an in universe reasons maybe because your better off having a squad of average joes sitting around holding a point then your skilled veterans that should be on the move killing stuff. Edited April 16, 2022 by War of the Eagle

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Eh, troops have it to encourage their use as strictly a game mechanic. If you wanted an in universe reasons maybe because your better off having a squad of average joes sitting around holding a point then your skilled veterans that should be on the move killing stuff.

but just like the game, killing stuff isn’t actually the goal in war, it’s to reach, take, and hold tactically/strategically important locations and items, and that’s what actual elite soldiers are trained to do.

[jarms48]

People, let me explain Scions to you as simply as possible.

 

1) CA2022 FAQ is irrelevant to Hammer of the Emperor. All it does is clarify that Militarum Tempestus is not a selectable <Regiment> keyword and <Tempestus Regiment> is a different selectable keyword to <Regiment>. This allows you to take both factions in the same army in the Muster Army Section of the Grand Tournament Pack Point 2. That’s it. It’s irrelevant.

 

2) <Tempestus Regiment> is also irrelevant to Hammer of the Emperor. It is a bonus keyword Militarum Tempestus units receive when taken in a Militarum Tempestus detachment.

 

3) Militarum Tempestus is their <Regiment> keyword. It’s what Tempestor Primes use to give out Orders, it’s what Tempestor Primes use for Laurels of Command. This is relevant to Hammer of the Emperor.

 

4) Hammer of the Emperor advises that the entire army must be from the same <Regiment>. Which means if you have Cadians and Militarum Tempestus in the same army it breaks the ability as this is 2 <Regiment> keywords. Nowhere does it say selectable.

 

* * * * *

 

What does this mean? You can only take pure Guard or pure Scions if you want Hammer of the Emperor.

Edited April 16, 2022 by jarms48

[Diagramdude]

I’m hoping for a swift official clarification, but at first glance HotE would be BONKERS on 2000pts of Lambdan Lions spamming dakka primes and mass hotshot lasgun infantry

[jarms48]

Apparently I need a second post with evidence. Cause there's too many people who don't understand how Scions work. It's pretty crazy.

 

Scions don’t stop it. You cut out the part right before that where it’s all referring to <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>

 

Firstly, you're wrong. I didn't cut anything. The section I copied comes directly from the <Regiment> ability in the codex. 

 

 

Militarum Tempestus is their <Regiment> keyword. If this was NOT the case they couldn't be ordered at all. 

 

 

 

 

* * * * *

 

 

GW needs to clarify about the Sions. As i read it according to "the Greater Good" Sions are <Tempestus Regiment> no longer <Regiment>, but i can see the arguments for your interpretations as well. I think the intend was for Sions to not get or break it, otherwise they would have worded it a bit different.

 

 

Scions don't block the auto-wound change, because they are not regiment, but tempestus regiment. They also don't benefit from it though, by the same logic with which you can still mix Scions and regular Guard.

 

This is wrong. 

 

 

<Tempestus Regiment> is merely a bonus keyword Militarum Tempestus units receive when taken in a Militarum Tempestus detachment. It doesn't replace anything, it's in addition to MIlitarum Tempestus. As shown above, Militarum Tempestus is their <Regiment> keyword. It's just a non-selectable one. <Tempestus Regiment> means nothing to Hammer of the Emperor.

 

* * * * *

 

 

This means nothing to Hammer of the Emperor. This only applies to WAR ZONE NACHMUND: GRAND TOURNAMENT GAMES 2. MUSTER ARMIES. Which yes it lets you ally Militarum Tempestus and Guard, but this is completely irrelevant to Hammer of the Emperor. 

 

 

Whereas Hammer of the Emperor is:

 

 

Nowhere does it say Selectable Faction keyword. It says every <Regiment> unit in your army is drawn from the same Regiment.

 

Militarum Tempestus is a <Regiment> and Cadians are a <Regiment>. The only difference is Militarum Tempestus is not selectable. Like Creed being Cadian and not <Regiment>, Harker being Catachan and not <Regiment>, DKOK Engineers being Krieg and not <Regiment>.

 

You cannot take Militarum Tempestus in a regular Guard army if you want Hammer of the Emperor. Pure Militarum Tempestus armies get Hammer of the Emperor, and pure Guard armies get Hammer of the Emperor.

Edited April 16, 2022 by jarms48

[sairence]

I've come around to that POV myself by now. You're correct, Voice of Command would not have worked for Scions since the start of 8th, if Militarum Tempestus wasn't their fixed <Regiment>.

 

So yeah. Pure Guard gets it, pure Scions get it, any mixing breaks it. Would still be nice to get an FAQ to adjust it and extend the MT exception from the Codex or From the Nachmund FAQ to this, so you can at least still bring basic Scions in gour normal Guard detachments, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited April 16, 2022 by sairence

[MrKoolPants]

Jarms48 is 100% correct. Actually, by that same logic, taking a Baneblade (or variant) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment will also prevent you from getting HotE unless you pay the Tank Ace tax.

 

So to take a Baneblade: that’s a 3CP tax, and then giving up a Warlord Trait, and then giving up an actually good Tank Ace, and maybe paying an extra 1CP to give out at least one Tank Ace. Garbage.

[jarms48]

Jarms48 is 100% correct. Actually, by that same logic, taking a Baneblade (or variant) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment will also prevent you from getting HotE unless you pay the Tank Ace tax.

So to take a Baneblade: that’s a 3CP tax, and then giving up a Warlord Trait, and then giving up an actually good Tank Ace, and maybe paying an extra 1CP to give out at least one Tank Ace. Garbage.

Baneblades still have the <Regiment> keyword. The only thing the Tank Ace does is give them Regimental Doctrines. So it won’t break Hammer.

Edited April 16, 2022 by jarms48

[MrKoolPants]

 

Jarms48 is 100% correct. Actually, by that same logic, taking a Baneblade (or variant) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment will also prevent you from getting HotE unless you pay the Tank Ace tax.

So to take a Baneblade: that’s a 3CP tax, and then giving up a Warlord Trait, and then giving up an actually good Tank Ace, and maybe paying an extra 1CP to give out at least one Tank Ace. Garbage.

Baneblades still have the <Regiment> keyword. The only thing the Tank Ace does is give them Regimental Doctrines. So it won’t break Hammer.

Ah, that’s good news. Man, so many rules sources to sift through.

[Glute]

 

Jarms48 is 100% correct. Actually, by that same logic, taking a Baneblade (or variant) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment will also prevent you from getting HotE unless you pay the Tank Ace tax.

So to take a Baneblade: that’s a 3CP tax, and then giving up a Warlord Trait, and then giving up an actually good Tank Ace, and maybe paying an extra 1CP to give out at least one Tank Ace. Garbage.

Baneblades still have the <Regiment> keyword. The only thing the Tank Ace does is give them Regimental Doctrines. So it won’t break Hammer.

 

I just ran a Super Heavy Detachment (Baneblade, Stormsword and Stormlord) last week using Cadian.  It was pretty fun.   But I think I'm going to switch to Catachan because of the reroll opportunity.   It would be interesting to see what the extra attacks may bring for auto wounds of 6's on hits.

 

I also take a battalion to get 2 conscript squads and 2 regular squads.   Having toughness 4 may help a bit more than the Cadian doctrine since they typically aren't staying still but advancing to objectives.

 

My lists aren't really super competitive but I just enjoy the theme.  Some days I just get rolled by turn 2 other days I make it miserable for my opponent.

[sairence]

 

 

Jarms48 is 100% correct. Actually, by that same logic, taking a Baneblade (or variant) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment will also prevent you from getting HotE unless you pay the Tank Ace tax.

So to take a Baneblade: that’s a 3CP tax, and then giving up a Warlord Trait, and then giving up an actually good Tank Ace, and maybe paying an extra 1CP to give out at least one Tank Ace. Garbage.

Baneblades still have the <Regiment> keyword. The only thing the Tank Ace does is give them Regimental Doctrines. So it won’t break Hammer.

Ah, that’s good news. Man, so many rules sources to sift through.

Also, Superheavy Aux is only 1cp if the unit has the same faction keyword as your WL. So a guard WL with a guard superheavy for example.

[jarms48]

I'm pretty excited to try both pure Infantry Squad spam with all the bells and whistles, as well as pure Scion spam. 

[Guardsman Bob]

But what happens if you don't want heavy weapons in every squad

Then GW has screwed your standard infantry numbers by up to 33% for the same point cost.

 

If you have an excess of lasguns the aforementioned White Shields might be an option.

 

I’m not sold on 60 point IG squads, it wasn’t so hot in the past editions and it is pricy for extra wounds on a BS 4+ lascannon. The auto-wound is probably a balm to distract the steep drop in dice shots. Some people have been screaming for an IG squad price hike for years so this might be the “compromise”?

 

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options. Personally mine are still boxed and will likely stay that way until a new book comes out. What GW did to the Guard by the time Psychic Awakening started was unforgivable. They need to earn some trust through actual good-faith effort.

 

They aren’t treating my Necrons much better so any enthusiasm towards 40K is pretty low these days. Part of me almost wishes I had just dumped 40K during the Ward Era. Only had Guard back then and I would have saved a lot of money, stress, and disappointment.

[OldWherewolf]

I’m not sold on 60 point IG squads, it wasn’t so hot in the past editions and it is pricy for extra wounds on a BS 4+ lascannon. The auto-wound is probably a balm to distract the steep drop in dice shots. Some people have been screaming for an IG squad price hike for years so this might be the “compromise”?

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options. Personally mine are still boxed and will likely stay that way until a new book comes out. What GW did to the Guard by the time Psychic Awakening started was unforgivable. They need to earn some trust through actual good-faith effort.

I don't get where you're coming from here.  For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim!  But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have. 

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD.  HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP.  Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game.  Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.