New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I’m not sold on 60 point IG squads, it wasn’t so hot in the past editions and it is pricy for extra wounds on a BS 4+ lascannon. The auto-wound is probably a balm to distract the steep drop in dice shots. Some people have been screaming for an IG squad price hike for years so this might be the “compromise”?

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options. Personally mine are still boxed and will likely stay that way until a new book comes out. What GW did to the Guard by the time Psychic Awakening started was unforgivable. They need to earn some trust through actual good-faith effort.

I don't get where you're coming from here. For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim! But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have.

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD. HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP. Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game. Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.

didn’t hit us nearly as hard as everything else.

We still get 2 opportunities to wound them, 16% chance for an autowound, if that fails you still get your normal chance to wound them.

I think we’re better off against power armor now than we were before the dataslate

[MrKoolPants]

 

didn’t hit us nearly as hard as everything else.

We still get 2 opportunities to wound them, 16% chance for an autowound, if that fails you still get your normal chance to wound them.

I think we’re better off against power armor now than we were before the dataslate

 

I think so as well. I was always a fan of Punisher TC over Demolisher TC, but now I feel the meta shifted towards that choice for sure. Toss out 40 shots, go fishing for 6s. No AP to begin with, so you're good to go. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by LtColKool

[The Pounder]

Yeah, the sheer volume of dice has given the Punisher a new lease of life.

 

In my own near future I reckon I’ll be working on some Quadlaunchers! (4D6 shots each!)

[TCC]

 

 

 

I’m not sold on 60 point IG squads, it wasn’t so hot in the past editions and it is pricy for extra wounds on a BS 4+ lascannon. The auto-wound is probably a balm to distract the steep drop in dice shots. Some people have been screaming for an IG squad price hike for years so this might be the “compromise”?

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options. Personally mine are still boxed and will likely stay that way until a new book comes out. What GW did to the Guard by the time Psychic Awakening started was unforgivable. They need to earn some trust through actual good-faith effort.

I don't get where you're coming from here. For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim! But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have.

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD. HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP. Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game. Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.

didn’t hit us nearly as hard as everything else.

We still get 2 opportunities to wound them, 16% chance for an autowound, if that fails you still get your normal chance to wound them.

I think we’re better off against power armor now than we were before the dataslate

 

I think so as well. I was always a fan of Punisher TC over Demolisher TC, but now I feel the meta shifted towards that choice for sure. Toss out 40 shots, go fishing for 6s. No AP to begin with, so you're good to go. 

 

i have painted up a Punisher cannon this weekend and swopped it out for DC, playing Nids tomorrow so will see how effective it is.

[BloodyB]

AoC has given me a lot to think on, playing both sides has made some things apparent to me. Firstly, I am not too concerned with finishing most non-Meq troops off, just mauling them makes things a lot easier for me, this is doubly true with guard, seeing as the best way as to stop autowound-fishing is to reduce the amount of hit rolls being attempted. If of 2 IG squads, I wipe one and drop the other to 9 guys, the various reroll oreders can affect 9 guys at a time, while dropping one squad to five and the other to four actually makes my guys a little safer. This isn't always true, but it is a fair guideline for targetting priorities.

 

While playing guard, I am going to have to focus on thumping shots down range. Mortars and Missiles are going to be my main heavy weapon from now on, with at least a few of my Demos getting shuffled for Punishers. Eradicators are looking good now, simply for dealing with Eliminators, which look disgusting now.

 

I think I might even change from plasma to grenade launchers in my basic squads for more autowound chances. I think it is interesting that Flamers cannot autowound. I might swap over to bolters on my artillery because of that.

 

Maybe even sentinels with missile launchers? Sheer weight of fire seems a good idea.

 

In any case, I might be tempted to invest in trenchwork fortifications, simply to better defend my massed infantry form enemy fire.

 

I hope my disjointed thoughts are helpful, my blood-to-alcohol levels are a bit askew right now.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

AoC has given me a lot to think on, playing both sides has made some things apparent to me. Firstly, I am not too concerned with finishing most non-Meq troops off, just mauling them makes things a lot easier for me, this is doubly true with guard, seeing as the best way as to stop autowound-fishing is to reduce the amount of hit rolls being attempted. If of 2 IG squads, I wipe one and drop the other to 9 guys, the various reroll oreders can affect 9 guys at a time, while dropping one squad to five and the other to four actually makes my guys a little safer. This isn't always true, but it is a fair guideline for targetting priorities.

 

While playing guard, I am going to have to focus on thumping shots down range. Mortars and Missiles are going to be my main heavy weapon from now on, with at least a few of my Demos getting shuffled for Punishers. Eradicators are looking good now, simply for dealing with Eliminators, which look disgusting now.

 

I think I might even change from plasma to grenade launchers in my basic squads for more autowound chances. I think it is interesting that Flamers cannot autowound. I might swap over to bolters on my artillery because of that.

 

Maybe even sentinels with missile launchers? Sheer weight of fire seems a good idea.

 

In any case, I might be tempted to invest in trenchwork fortifications, simply to better defend my massed infantry form enemy fire.

 

I hope my disjointed thoughts are helpful, my blood-to-alcohol levels are a bit askew right now.

can’t they autowound?

The rules simply say that they auto hit, I don’t see anything that says you still can’t roll to hit. Previously there was no point and it just wasted time. Now there’s a reason to do so.

[sairence]

Auto-hits just count as a succesful hit. You can't choose to roll for an already succesful result. I don't have the specific rules paragraph in front of me, but thst's definitely how it works.

 

And previous interactions were always FAQd that auto-hits do not count as any specific result, so can never trigger any results working off a specific roll.

 

Flamers will still be decent choices. Assault weapons are nice to have, and most of our hit rolls will not be 6s. Not having to roll a 4+ BS is still helpful. Plus, there's always overwatch potential. I wouldn't discount them.

Edited April 17, 2022 by sairence

[Galron]

Grenadiers strat on OW just got awesome. 10d6 shots. If you hit, you wound. Yeah, its only one or 2 marines but hey. Also good for taking out elves on the attack I think. 

[Diagramdude]

Wow I didn’t even think about overwatch. So overwatch 6s just straight up wound now… very spicy.

[MrKoolPants]

Grenadiers on OW. What a riot. A couple cheeky wounds on a MEQ squad can help you stay on an objective.

 

It would also be a good strat to pull in a scenario where you can’t get FRFSRF off for an infantry squad for some reason (although with free vox, that should not happen too often).

 

I’m also thinking of Dagger of Tu’Sakh. You could yeet a barebones infantry squad (sergeant with a boltgun) with a Platoon Commander for FRFSRF. If the opponent has something squishy there, that’s an 85pt investment to challenge that objective.

[sairence]

Not sure why so many people are so keen on a boltgun. Plasmapistol is better overcharged or not and most of the time you'll be in 12" range. :)

[MrKoolPants]

That’s a good point. For me it’s 1) synergy/ease of use with the 24” range on the lasguns, and 2) I have a feeling free plasma pistols are going away in a couple months when the ‘Dex drops, and I don’t want to convert and then convert back.

[Diagramdude]

I think the laurels of command is back on the menu for cadian infantry. FRFSRF is a must but rerolling misses from take aim is a huge buff as well.

 

Does anyone know if the second layer order procced off Laurels can be bounced to all neighboring squads? Bc that would be a giant blob of double-shooting, hit-rerolling laser guns.

[sairence]

It does not bounce. Can only roll Laurels for the unit directly ordered by the officer. Every other unit still has the 1 order max in place. Edited April 18, 2022 by sairence

[MrKoolPants]

I believe that’s accurate. The wording on Laurels indicates that another order is issued “to that same unit.”

 

For your adjacent squads, the wording on Voice of Command indicates that “a unit may only be affected by one order per turn.”

[Diagramdude]

Okay then one CC with superior tactical training and Laurels of command might be a strong combination to bring in to maximize the number of squads that get double orders of FRFSRF and take aim.

 

30 conscripts with just FRF expect 20 auto wounds, add a stationary take aim and that climbs to 33.3 auto wounds

[MrKoolPants]

Okay then one CC with superior tactical training and Laurels of command might be a strong combination to bring in to maximize the number of squads that get double orders of FRFSRF and take aim.

 

30 conscripts with just FRF expect 20 auto wounds, add a stationary take aim and that climbs to 33.3 auto wounds

I play Tallarn mostly, so I’d forgotten about that WL trait. If you roll 4+ consistently, that would certainly work.

 

Edit: yeah, if you roll hot and/or burn a command point to ensure two 30-man conscript squads get the goods, that’s 66.6 damn wounds. This is assuming (dubiously) your opponent walks up to within 12” and doesn’t kill anything.

Edited April 18, 2022 by LtColKool

[jarms48]

Punishers might be more viable. 40 shots is 6 - 7 auto wounds, then an extra 8 - 9 wounds against T4 or less. The tank ace isn’t even required if you have a lot of Armour of Contempt factions in your meta, as AP-1 is worthless against them. So that’s an average of 14 - 16 wounds, assuming a 3+ save that’s around 2 - 3 dead marines.

 

That’s actually better than a Demolisher. Which only kills about 2 marines after AoC. The best part is regardless of if you’re tagged in CC, on the bottom bracket, or suffering from a -1 to Hit the auto wounds will still kill 1 marine on average. Though that’s still a terrible trade sadly.

 

* * * * *

 

The biggest winner is definitely Lambdan Lions with FRFSRF. That’s 6 - 7 autowounds, then another 6 wounds for a total of 12 - 13. Which unlike the Punisher will force Armour of Contempt factions on a 5+ still. Which will kill 8 - 9 marines.

Edited April 19, 2022 by jarms48

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’d also say the stormlord is now the best LoW we have access to as well.

[TCC]

 

 

 

 

I’m not sold on 60 point IG squads, it wasn’t so hot in the past editions and it is pricy for extra wounds on a BS 4+ lascannon. The auto-wound is probably a balm to distract the steep drop in dice shots. Some people have been screaming for an IG squad price hike for years so this might be the “compromise”?

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options. Personally mine are still boxed and will likely stay that way until a new book comes out. What GW did to the Guard by the time Psychic Awakening started was unforgivable. They need to earn some trust through actual good-faith effort.

I don't get where you're coming from here. For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim! But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have.

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD. HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP. Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game. Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.

didn’t hit us nearly as hard as everything else.

We still get 2 opportunities to wound them, 16% chance for an autowound, if that fails you still get your normal chance to wound them.

I think we’re better off against power armor now than we were before the dataslate

 

I think so as well. I was always a fan of Punisher TC over Demolisher TC, but now I feel the meta shifted towards that choice for sure. Toss out 40 shots, go fishing for 6s. No AP to begin with, so you're good to go. 

 

i have painted up a Punisher cannon this weekend and swopped it out for DC, playing Nids tomorrow so will see how effective it is.

 

Played the game last night, Nids used their new codex and a list without synaptic. Ended up winning 90 to 47 but it was closer than that - a couple of my tanks went to 1 and 3 wounds but could have easily died under different dice. Punisher was good, it took out 16 termagants in one go (without using any of the heavy bolters). The HotE was very effective and I was dropping 6’s all over the place. My 20 conscripts firing only once did 7 HotE. The heavy bolters in my infantry was effective and allowed me to hold the squads back (saving them from first turn charges) but allowed them to do some damaged due to the HB range, also powerswords are effective! 

Edited April 19, 2022 by TCC

[MrKoolPants]

I’d also say the stormlord is now the best LoW we have access to as well.

Pay the whole 750 points for the Stormlord, four Sponsons (for the twin HB), and two bare bones infantry squads to rapid fire from the gun deck. Move up to within 12” and farm sixes. That’s 14 auto-wounds just from rolling to hit.

 

It would be more if you could order the unit inside to FRFSRF, but I don’t think that works. Because the wording for Voice of Command states that the the Orders must be on ‘infantry units within 6” of this unit.’ Units in transports are not technically placed on the battlefield, IIRC, and therefore are not within 6” of anything.

[MrKoolPants]

 

Played the game last night, Nids used their new codex and a list without synaptic. Ended up winning 90 to 47 but it was closer than that - a couple of my tanks went to 1 and 3 wounds but could have easily died under different dice. Punisher was good, it took out 16 termagants in one go (without using any of the heavy bolters). The HotE was very effective and I was dropping 6’s all over the place. My 20 conscripts firing only once did 7 HotE. The heavy bolters in my infantry was effective and allowed me to hold the squads back (saving them from first turn changes) but allowed them to do some damaged due to the HB range, also powerswords are effective!

Dude this is awesome. I hope we keep the rule in the new Dex. Way to rock out against a brand new codex with our trusty old 8th Ed book.

 

Punishers Russes are awesome now. Are three TC russes with Punishers in a 2k list totally overkill? With HotE I feel like they can threaten medium infantry and light vehicles now, too.

Edited April 19, 2022 by LtColKool

[sairence]

Correct, you can't order stuff in transports. They are functionally off the table, same with buildings. Only if the transport has a special rule to allow it can they interact with anything before disembarking. And then they only get their inherent rules or rules interacting with the target. So Cadians would get reroll 1s if the transport stood still and could benefit from overlapping fields of fire for example. But not orders.

[domsto]

I had a Game on the Weekend

Guard vs Imperial Fists to test both thenew Guard and Marine Rules

I played the Fists this time.

In short

The autowound 6s are greate for Guard.

 

The Infantry "buff" didn't fell as such. My Friend put everything in a Infantry Squad could have but at the end we both agreed that it didn't made any diffrence and it would have been better for the Infantry to stay the same or even go down in points. As with the autowound 6s the Lasgun with FRFSRF is the most effectiv way to run them...

 

The army wide -1ap lead to some big problems for Guard, as suddently the Manticore or Battlecannon only had -1Ap or even 0AP against Keyunits in cover. Or with a unique IF stratagem my Marines had a +2save against the Manticore while in cover...

 

After all the matchup felt very similar to the state before the Rulechanges, and the Battlecannon and Manticore underperformed while the weight of Lasgun fire fishing for 6s destroyed whole Intersessor Squads.

Against Marines Guard still struggels.

I hope i get a game in pretty soon against or with a non power Armour faction to see how Guad fairs against this.

Edited April 19, 2022 by domsto

[duz_]

Let's keep an eye on those excessive quotes, we all know the discussion going on here :tu: