New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[MrKoolPants]

Nice, good report back from the front! 

 

It sounds like FRFSRF lasguns, fishing for sixes, is the way to go. Do you think still adding the free special weapon would be a worthwhile tradeoff? For example giving all your infantry squads melta so that opponents think twice about pushing close with vehicles into infantry groups? 

Edited April 19, 2022 by LtColKool

[jarms48]

I would always take a plasma and lascannon. Even if it means less autowounds from FRFSRF. The increased AP and increased damage will be far more noticeable.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Nice, good report back from the front!

 

It sounds like FRFSRF lasguns, fishing for sixes, is the way to go. Do you think still adding the free special weapon would be a worthwhile tradeoff? For example giving all your infantry squads melta so that opponents think twice about pushing close with vehicles into infantry groups?

aside from a few walkers I can’t imagine many armies trying to push up close with a vehicle.

Personally I think either a plasma gun or grenade launcher is the way to go.

 

If you don’t add upgrades the squad is just more expensive and less effective.

I would always take a plasma and lascannon. Even if it means less autowounds from FRFSRF. The increased AP and increased damage will be far more noticeable.

im not understanding the lascannon thoughts.

I haven’t seen anyone say they’re pleased with lascannons this edition, to swingy on damage.

 

I feel that HBs or ACs would both capitalize on HOTE the best

Edited April 19, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[4ndroid]

Planning to go all in on heavy bolters instead of lascannons with my infantry, mortar hw teams, and punishers with heavy bolter sponsons. Anything to increase rate of fire/# of dice. Am I fishing for autowounds yep! Hope these changes stick for the codex!

[domsto]

Nice, good report back from the front! 

 

It sounds like FRFSRF lasguns, fishing for sixes, is the way to go. Do you think still adding the free special weapon would be a worthwhile tradeoff? For example giving all your infantry squads melta so that opponents think twice about pushing close with vehicles into infantry groups? 

The main Problem with the Infantry Squads remain...

They get shoot from the Table in no time. Never will they get close enough for the Melta without any Transport.

 

I am thinking about a 30Men Conscripts blob with the Whiteshields upgrade and FRFSRF.

[Captain Caine 24th]

Anecdotal: Had a 1500pts game with emperor's children last night (very close loss 57-58). The auto wounds were really noticeable--I even have to admit I frequently forgot about it with several units during the first 2 turns. Several times the plasma and autocannon (all i had painted for krieg) wounds would get saved, and two lasgun wounds would go through unsaved. In particular I had 3 squads on an objective trying to hold a flank - they each contributed chip damage amounting to a big problem, when backed by the tank commanders and manticore. This adjustment may not be perfect, I agree, but it shifts units from pure screening, movement blocking, and objective holding - to also contributing in shooting and combat. Remember if that sergeant lives, he can shoot that pistol into combat... (long time since that was a salient issue for me). I'm still a fan of mortars, but I'm biased. Even missile launchers could be interesting  - that bit of long range with the option for anti-infantry is attractive. 

 

Issue 1: that new armor of contempt is a nightmare for the manticore. Notably, part of this was a lack of good target priority, the list i faced was just a giant blob of power armor. But, I can't Imagine if we'd been hit with the indirect fire nerf. All heavy bolters really struggled. Even the demolishers weren't the usual 'cure-all.' I really had doubts at 155pts+ and now I may really move it out of the list. I don't like the quad launchers or wyvern on mathhammer - I've been anti-AP0 weapons this edition. Basilisks at 125 in cadia might be appropriate. I did also experiment with tank orders (re-roll 1's) to the manticore (i had used gunnery experts and spotters for my regiment). That was OK - my strategy involved getting in range of 4 objectives to cover my units and clear off the enemy. I think cadian again gets interesting for a babysitter tank commander, especially with GATEKEEPER. I also think punishers could be interesting. 

 

Issue 2: Scions are a key part of my strategy, jumping in at inopportune times (i like iotan gorgonnes, but can't argue with lamdon lions, especially now). I had some trouble adjusting in this game without an easy RND secondary score. The reasoning discussed above seems solid that scions break the auto wound (in depth discussions like this on difficult-to-understand rules is one example of why i don't subscribe to the competitive v. casual dichotomy - I'm certainly not figuring this out on my own, let alone the 12 year-old version of me). 

 

Speculation: last hurrah for this heavy weapon platform? Push sales out before new range drops? Careful on rushing out to buy $$$, these updates are fickle. Was it 7th edition that had free upgrades for adepticus mechanicus and free transports for space marines? I forget now, but that got out of hand. I'm cautiously optimistic that this free wargear will be handled well by GW.

[Diagramdude]

Assuming pure scions can get HotE, how would thetoid eagles work?

 

32nd Thetoid Eagles: When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this doctrine against a unit that is within half range, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.

 

Would the additional hit count as an additional automatic wound or be added to your hits that need a subsequent wound roll.

[sairence]

Balance dataslate was updated today.

 

Scions don't get HotE, but they also don't block it.

[sairence]

Assuming pure scions can get HotE, how would thetoid eagles work?

 

32nd Thetoid Eagles: When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this doctrine against a unit that is within half range, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.

 

Would the additional hit count as an additional automatic wound or be added to your hits that need a subsequent wound roll.

No, this was FAQd in relation to similar rules ages ago.

 

Exploding hits don't count as any specific dice result and thus can't proc any effects that require a certain roll.

 

So your roll of 6 would count as an exploding hit and an automatic wound, but the extra hit would have to roll to wound as normal.

 

But see above, sadly this was updated already.

Edited April 20, 2022 by sairence

[duz_]

Supposedly they revised the update and clarified Scions

 

[Emperor Ming]

Disappointing for those that run just scions

 

You get...a slap in the face, then another slap! just for good measure  

[Diagramdude]

Lambdan Lions would have been way too OP. But I'm glad we retain the option of bringing in a Scion complement.

[sairence]

Nothing in Guard at this point in time is way too OP. This buff doesn't let Guard compete with new Codexes it just makes us suck a bit less.

 

I'm not trying too be negative, but if you looked at any combo from the dataslate and though Guard will become too much to handle for other armies you're just wrong. And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

 

Upping the damage output is nice, but doesn't help when we're just not durable enough to survive.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Nothing in Guard at this point in time is way too OP. This buff doesn't let Guard compete with new Codexes it just makes us suck a bit less.

 

I'm not trying too be negative, but if you looked at any combo from the dataslate and though Guard will become too much to handle for other armies you're just wrong. And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

 

Upping the damage output is nice, but doesn't help when we're just not durable enough to survive.

that’s part of making more firepower possible by doing the flat rate for an infantry squad.

Allowing you to take more effective weapons AND maybe a whole extra squad or two depending on the size of the game.

[sairence]

It doesn't matter how much you can tool up infantry out the wazoo if your opponent can trivially pick them up right out the gate.

 

I played a game against Tau yesterday, not even a hyper comp list. My opponent, lovely guy, wasn't even trying superhard and still casually picked up a TC, 3 Sentinels and almost 60 of my 120 Guardsmen in his turn 1. Compared to the 20 Kroot, 1 Devilfish and almost 1 Crisis suit I was able to pick going first.

 

And that's a pretty normal outcome. We were playing fairly heavy terrain too. By turn 2 he had removed enough stuff that he felt confident to charge me.

[jarms48]

 

im not understanding the lascannon thoughts.

I haven’t seen anyone say they’re pleased with lascannons this edition, to swingy on damage.

 

I feel that HBs or ACs would both capitalize on HOTE the best

 

 

There is only 2 viable direct fire HWT options. That's the heavy bolter and the lascannon. 

 

The issue with the heavy bolter is against -1 damage or new armour of contempt factions it's pretty useless. The difference between AP0 and AP-1 is massive. Some factions can even stack both of those. 

 

It really depends on your local meta, but largely the answer is:

- If you have a lot of armour of contempt factions = take the lascannon. It's more resilient to AP reduction and damage reduction. As well as being better against high toughness targets. 

- If you have no or a couple of armour of contempt factions = take the heavy bolter.  

 

Basically all your Infantry Squads should be set up with plasma guns as your main anti-MEQ weapons, with lascannons being your main AT weapons. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

im not understanding the lascannon thoughts.

I haven’t seen anyone say they’re pleased with lascannons this edition, to swingy on damage.

 

I feel that HBs or ACs would both capitalize on HOTE the best

 

There is only 2 viable direct fire HWT options. That's the heavy bolter and the lascannon.

 

The issue with the heavy bolter is against -1 damage or new armour of contempt factions it's pretty useless. The difference between AP0 and AP-1 is massive. Some factions can even stack both of those.

 

It really depends on your local meta, but largely the answer is:

- If you have a lot of armour of contempt factions = take the lascannon. It's more resilient to AP reduction and damage reduction. As well as being better against high toughness targets.

- If you have no or a couple of armour of contempt factions = take the heavy bolter.

 

Basically all your Infantry Squads should be set up with plasma guns as your main anti-MEQ weapons, with lascannons being your main AT weapons.

AoC doesn’t matter if you role a 6 which you get more chances of with the HB.

Weight of fire has been the name of the game this edition, and now for guard even more so.

[MrKoolPants]

Big news on Scions. I’ve been running a detachment with an Old Grudges Prime, and was kind of tweaking about not having that Deep Strike Melta spam. I don’t even mind them not having HotE, but not being able to include them at all broke (what I think is) a key unit for our ‘dex atm. Edited April 21, 2022 by LtColKool

[Diagramdude]

You can include them, what do you mean

[MrKoolPants]

Clarification: I meant not being able to include them without losing HotE for your army. If having any Tempestus in your army meant you lost that rule, Tempestus were not worth taking. So I’m glad they clarified the rule, because those units are strong (for our old codex anyway).

[Galron]

Run all infantry or run a lot of tanks and armor. Overload one aspect of your opponent's ability to kill things. Also, wilderness survivors, you are always in cover so your save is at least buffed by 1 making it that much harder. I am currently running lascannons and plasma guns in every squad with the trait of Disciplined fire allowing me to rapid fire out to 18" .  I dont have a single vehicle currently in my army. I might change that in later point levels by adding some artillery vehicles like the Collossus and Medusas that I have floating around. Possibly basilisks turrets if I can find STL files.

 

Only a Tau fire warrior firing line can match me for numbers of guys and firepower at 500 points and thats only if they go all in with firewarriors and fireblades(which is something I would do and have done)and even then, we have our orders, they have fireblade buffs. I also have two mortar teams they dont have plus an LT sitting there giving orders to them.

[Guardsman Bob]

 

Snip

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options.

 

snip

I don't get where you're coming from here.  For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim!  But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have. 

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD.  HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP.  Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game.  Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.

 

40 to 60 points is 1/3 less wounds.  120 points of infantry was 30 models it is now 20 models. That’s ten less wounds and ten less on the multiplier of shots, 1/3rd.  GW hyped up the positive points but we should be brutally realistic here. The infantry numbers presented on the web don’t pause to compare the reduction of bodies on the table. When comparing damage values either the old guardsman’s number needs to be multiplied by 1-and-1/3 OR the new guardsman multiplied 2/3rd.

Aside the point hike does have two clearly positive effects. Easier entry into the Guard and less table clutter. Over the decades I’ve had a few people groan at infantry heavy armies (I’ve groaned during a late night moving metal miniatures). So gameplay can theoretically speed up.

 

At 6 points per infantry model Guard are now on par with the general game. They just need rules (or interlinked hodgepodge of rules) to make them worth it. Keeping an eye out for it.

 

As for Armor of Contempt it’s an odd bird. There were plenty of tactical power armor in need of a boost but this shotgun fix is a mess. Death Guard certainly didn’t need it. If AoC really flatlines our tanks as you claim then the Guard are out of options.

 

I find the entire vehicle thread on this topic terribly interesting because if there is a current solution that’s where it probably is. If it exists.

[domsto]

Had a Game today against Death Guard.

Well the combination of AoC and -1Dmg is pretty hard to crack.

Funnily enought all the big Guns like Manticore, Battlecannon, even the Demolisher are hit pretty hard by this. I gave the Basilisk a try over the Manticore and with AP-3 base it is at least somewhat usefull.

For Guard it became a numbers game even more as before. It's all about number of dice. Which leads to my next point.

60 points for an Infantry Squad is too much, even with all the upgrades of which 2/3 are useless anyway, they dont feel appropriate priced. I had to actually cut Infantry Squads from my Liste and i felt every missing Squad.

I had overall fewer shots to work with.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

Snip

 

My issue really is infantry squads hitting with a third less dice, 16.7% auto wounding (offset by 5.6% that are expected to have succeed from those hits on SMs anyways). A third less shots, up to a possible third less wounds. Are special and heavy weapons going to cover the gap? Are our vehicle mounted heavy bolters or multi-lasers getting enough of a boost to matter? Gut says check against other armies with cheap infantry like the Martian Boys or the Guard re-roll (MOAR dice) options.

 

snip

I don't get where you're coming from here. For that 5 points, infantry durability hasn't changed, but the output of a guard squad increased over 4x if you include a meltagun & lascannon, 5x when you then include Take Aim! But that 5x brings us up to ~2.6W, which is what modern codexes like Dire Avengers, AdMech Rangers, Tau Breacher teams have.

 

The biggest problem is that the AoC hit Guard tanks HARD. HBs, HFs and the already useless AC now lost their AP. Manticores went down to AP1 against 75% of the armies in the game. Demo cannons are now AP2, giving regular marines a 5+ save, and dreads a 5+ -1D, so Guard is even less reliable on killing those.

40 to 60 points is 1/3 less wounds. 120 points of infantry was 30 models it is now 20 models. That’s ten less wounds and ten less on the multiplier of shots, 1/3rd. GW hyped up the positive points but we should be brutally realistic here. The infantry numbers presented on the web don’t pause to compare the reduction of bodies on the table. When comparing damage values either the old guardsman’s number needs to be multiplied by 1-and-1/3 OR the new guardsman multiplied 2/3rd.

Aside the point hike does have two clearly positive effects. Easier entry into the Guard and less table clutter. Over the decades I’ve had a few people groan at infantry heavy armies (I’ve groaned during a late night moving metal miniatures). So gameplay can theoretically speed up.

 

At 6 points per infantry model Guard are now on par with the general game. They just need rules (or interlinked hodgepodge of rules) to make them worth it. Keeping an eye out for it.

 

As for Armor of Contempt it’s an odd bird. There were plenty of tactical power armor in need of a boost but this shotgun fix is a mess. Death Guard certainly didn’t need it. If AoC really flatlines our tanks as you claim then the Guard are out of options.

 

I find the entire vehicle thread on this topic terribly interesting because if there is a current solution that’s where it probably is. If it exists.

how much has firepower increased though?

Increased firepower increases durability and staying power.

 

Kill 2 intercessors instead of 1, suddenly you squad will have less incoming fire the next turn making them more survivable.

 

And for those of us playing the army as intended and designed rather than trying to maximize each point, we will get more bodies on the table.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[OldWherewolf]

how much has firepower increased though?

Increased firepower increases durability and staying power.

 

Kill 2 intercessors instead of 1, suddenly you squad will have less incoming fire the next turn making them more survivable.

 

And for those of us playing the army as intended and designed rather than trying to maximize each point, we will get more bodies on the table.

Base Firepower for infantry squads has gone up tremendously (like 4-5x, from .5W to 2-2.5W). However, since the guard infantry has no base durability, that limited durability buff from killing that extra intercessor is offset by a) the fact we still need to MMM! onto an objective b) still hide most of our infantry from that lack of durability and c) the reduced killing power of our heavy-hitters.