New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[sairence]

 

And for those of us playing the army as intended and designed rather than trying to maximize each point, we will get more bodies on the table.

Let's not get condecending towards anyone's playstyle. The beauty of the Guard is that we've an incredibly large range of ways to play the army. There is no one "intended" way and it's certainly not defined by how much you squeeze out of your points.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

how much has firepower increased though?

Increased firepower increases durability and staying power.

 

Kill 2 intercessors instead of 1, suddenly you squad will have less incoming fire the next turn making them more survivable.

 

And for those of us playing the army as intended and designed rather than trying to maximize each point, we will get more bodies on the table.

Base Firepower for infantry squads has gone up tremendously (like 4-5x, from .5W to 2-2.5W). However, since the guard infantry has no base durability, that limited durability buff from killing that extra intercessor is offset by a) the fact we still need to MMM! onto an objective b) still hide most of our infantry from that lack of durability and c) the reduced killing power of our heavy-hitters.

just pointing out that extra firepower is an indirect buff to survivability

 

 

And for those of us playing the army as intended and designed rather than trying to maximize each point, we will get more bodies on the table.

Let's not get condecending towards anyone's playstyle. The beauty of the Guard is that we've an incredibly large range of ways to play the army. There is no one "intended" way and it's certainly not defined by how much you squeeze out of your points.

there really is a clearly intended way to play guard, but whatever you say.

[duz_]

Let's keep on topic and keep it civil. This is the Barracks and not the NRBA.

[Gnomeo]

So with the new armour of contempt ignoring the 1st point of ap are manticores less useful? Also what do people think of a tank commander with gatekeeper and weapon expert tank ace?

[sairence]

Ap2 is definitely going to struggle more into power armour. The Manti and BC already had it as one if their big downsides, that the things you want to shoot them into often enough still got a decent save. I think the Manti still wins out over the Basi, simply because the extra S and shots are better. I guess you just have to be even more selective with your targets and will definitely need at least 2 to make a dent into something.

 

I read a comment shortly after that if your gun isn't ap0 or ap 3 it's just not going to cut it and I'm afraid that's not too far off.

 

On the other hand, let's not forget there's plenty of non-PA armies out there. :)

Edited April 24, 2022 by sairence

[jarms48]

Ap2 is definitely going to struggle more into power armour. The Manti and BC already had it as one if their big downsides, that the things you want to shoot them into often enough still got a decent save. I think the Manti still wins out over the Basi, simply because the extra S and shots are better. I guess you just have to be even more selective with your targets and will definitely need at least 2 to make a dent into something.

 

This. At this point if your local meta has a lot of Armour of Contempt factions I think your list should basically be:

 

- tons of infantry squads with plasma and lascannons

- demolisher TC's with hull lascannon

- basilisks

 

You basically need the increased AP to do the same damage you were doing before to those armies, even with the new Hammer of the Emperor. 

 

To give some basic maths on why the basilisk might be the better choice now. Against a tactical marine an earthshaker is doing 2.483 damage, while a manticore is doing 2.917 damage. So a manticore is barely doing .5 more damage for 30 points more.

 

You're better off taking 2 basilisks and then using that 60 points saved to get another infantry squad with another plasma gun and lascannon.

Edited April 24, 2022 by jarms48

[WarriorFish]

I've been thinking about this and it is back to the old days of weight of dice against Marines. There's only so many high AP weapons you can muster and they are going to be more important for it, busy focusing where they can do the best work for you. With HotE on top this is reinforced - throw enough dice to make things go away as we used to say Fortunately the game has long encouraged numbers, at least for Guard, so this shouldn't be too much of a change for most.

 

I'm not sure on the indirect fire part as a relative gain (or more specifically, lack of loss) it isn't much of a difference internally. I think we'll be working out the big picture on this change for a little while yet, please keep thoughts and experiences coming comrades it is great fodder for the grey matter

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

To give some basic maths on why the basilisk might be the better choice now. Against a tactical marine an earthshaker is doing 2.483 damage, while a manticore is doing 2.917 damage. So a manticore is barely doing .5 more damage for 30 points more.

 

You're better off taking 2 basilisks and then using that 60 points saved to get another infantry squad with another plasma gun and lascannon.

 

Well that answers my question of what to add to my army next, time to check ebay for WW2 tanks to convert into big boom cannons. :D 

[sairence]

I think the indirect fire nerf helps us indirectly (heh) by reducing the threat of counter artillery.

 

Friend of mine who plays competitive Craftworlds has dropped the D-Cannons and Nightspinners he would always bring, which in turns means my artillery is kinda save as long as I can hide them from direct fire and charges. Another one with DG would always have his 3 PBCs mortaring away...I'm not sure if he's dropping them, but they are less of a worry now.

 

So in that sense it helps a bit.

[Slave to Darkness]

I think the indirect fire nerf helps us indirectly (heh) by reducing the threat of counter artillery.

 

 

Guard vs Guard games are gonna be fun. :lol: 

[MrKoolPants]

Indirect staying the same for us is 100% a buff. My opinion currently is that if no other HS is being taken, most lists should take HWS w/ Mortars to fill HS slots.

 

Generally, I like to evaluate lists, codices, and units on three aspects: mobility, output, and survivability.

 

Mobility will usually improve output, because in 40k the closer you get generally the more damage you can deal (also, more flexible positioning allows you to line up better shooting).

 

Output will generally improve survivability, because the more stuff you kill the less stuff can possibly kill you.

 

This trickling down of benefit is why people find that “movement wins games,” generally speaking. Not to mention movement is how you get on objectives.

 

In this update, we got an army-wide buff to output, which is great. Our indirect fire units got a buff to survivability, because if you place them well, few things in the rest of the game can shoot back at them without sacrificing position.

 

So that leaves us in an interesting spot in regards to the most important aspect, mobility. We’re not a particularly mobile codex at the moment. The two choices we’re all figuring out to counter this are 1) to flood the body with ablative infantry wounds, and hope you have enough bodies left by the time you where you’re going, and 2) to flood the board with vehicles, which are (unfortunately) over-pointed for their output and struggle in 9th Ed generally.

 

Scions, Scout Sentinels, Vehicles with Track Guards, and Tallarn Doctrine are all options to help with mobility. But compared to meta options like Dawn Eagle Jetbikes, Harlequins, and even Battle Suits, we’re at a distinct disadvantage in that aspect (not to mention output or survivability).

[BloodyB]

Massed Lasguns are the most likely option of dealing with MEQ for me. But Basilisks are much more viable now, even if that is because AoC hurts them least. I do think that HotE is kind of slapping lipstick on a pig right now, but I can deal with it while waiting for the next codex. Has anyone tried running massed grenade launchers yet? My pair of SWS reaped a furious tally of 5 and 6 marines respectively ( for 50 pts per squad, that is pretty good) as well as a few wounds on a Plagueburster. The grenade launcher seems like a good option for getting more shots.

 

My mortar/grenade launcher squads are doing some good work in chipping away the more elite armies, even Custodes have to respect their firepower en masse.

 

I really wish that Superheavies got buffed, maybe getting +1 BS or at least a way to get it. My Steelfury company have been locked up for too long.

[Danosborne]

I’ve got a game against harlequins soon, I’m planning to take 2 battalions with 6 infantry squads each with 5 chimeras a company commander and Primaris psyker and 2 scout sentinel with heavy flamers. The chimera will all have track guards and twin heavy flamers. I’ve got a good feeling about it. The new hammer of the emperor rule I think works really well into harlequins with their 4++, basically for every 2 sixes to hit you are chipping off a wound. The chimeras are there to keep the infantry round a bit longer and having track guards and heavy flamers it makes them immune to the effects of degrading. The sentinels to make use of the pre-game move. I’m still considering whether I should tweak the list to include Yarrick for the reroll 1’s aura but I think that would mean dropping a psyker and a couple of sentinels, or a chimera. Not sure if it’s worth it.

[MrKoolPants]

I think an Inquisitor could really benefit your list, if you aren’t opposed to sourcing the rules online (you’ll be looking for Psychic Awakening: Pariah). The rules for adding inquisitors to Battle Forged armies state that it won’t break any rules like Regimental Doctrines or HoTE. They don’t even cost you a CP or a Slot to add them either.

 

All Inquisitors come with a 6” LD 9 bubble for your army. Choose Ordo Malleus and spend 1 CP on “Arbiter of the Emperor’s Will” to give them a free relic, and the Warlord Trait Psychic Mastery. This trait gives them know/cast/deny two powers a turn.

 

The Malleus-specific psychic power Warding Incantation gives a 5++ to an Imperium Infantry unit within 12”. Castigation is a juiced-up smite based on enemy unit’s leadership. I would recommend those.

 

For the relic, the Blackshroud subtracts 1 from the wound roll for attacks against the Inquisitor himself.

 

If you use the stratagem Consolidate Squads every turn, you can start to build a big blob of Guardsmen with a 5++, at LD 9. Take an Astropath and cast Psychic Barrier to turn that 5++ into a 4++, and now you’re cooking with gas. Take a Platoon Commander, and you can order that growing blob to move around or FRFSRF.

 

Just my thoughts!

 

Edit: the inquisitor costs the same as one infantry squad, by the way. So with 120 bodies, I think you can afford to lose a squad in exchange for the buffs.

Edited April 25, 2022 by LtColKool

[jarms48]

I think the indirect fire nerf helps us indirectly (heh) by reducing the threat of counter artillery.

 

Friend of mine who plays competitive Craftworlds has dropped the D-Cannons and Nightspinners he would always bring, which in turns means my artillery is kinda save as long as I can hide them from direct fire and charges. Another one with DG would always have his 3 PBCs mortaring away...I'm not sure if he's dropping them, but they are less of a worry now.

 

So in that sense it helps a bit.

 

Funny thing is, against any faction that isn't Guard. If someone is trying to counter your indirect fire with indirect fire, those basilisks and manticores basically have 2+ saves. Lol.

[Danosborne]

Good shout on the inquisitor, can they fill the mandatory HQ slot in a battalion or would I need another hq in addition?

[sairence]

Good shout on the inquisitor, can they fill the mandatory HQ slot in a battalion or would I need another hq in addition?

No, you need another HQ. Basically, any Imperium Patrol, Battalion or Brigade can bring one Agent of the Imperium unit withhout breaking detachment/army bonuses or taking up any slots. Agents of the Imperium currently are Inquisitors, Assassins or Rogue Traders.

[MrKoolPants]

Sairence is correct! I like taking 3 Astropaths to push up with the blob. That way I can get Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud in addition to Warding Incantation. Then, I still have extra psyker around for doing Psychic secondaries.

 

Also check out Coteaz. He’s more durable, more killy, and has some cool special rules for 35 extra points. He still pumps out Psychic powers, and is Malleus, so you can still take WI.

Edited April 26, 2022 by LtColKool

[Danosborne]

I just picked up Erasmus Cartavolnus a couple of weeks ago so I might try and get him ready in time, otherwise it’ll be Solomon Lok proxying as a malleus!

[MrKoolPants]

I do the same thing, I love that Lok model. Small world/hobby!

[Slave to Darkness]

I think an Inquisitor could really benefit your list, if you aren’t opposed to sourcing the rules online (you’ll be looking for Psychic Awakening: Pariah). The rules for adding inquisitors to Battle Forged armies state that it won’t break any rules like Regimental Doctrines or HoTE. They don’t even cost you a CP or a Slot to add them either.

 

All Inquisitors come with a 6” LD 9 bubble for your army. Choose Ordo Malleus and spend 1 CP on “Arbiter of the Emperor’s Will” to give them a free relic, and the Warlord Trait Psychic Mastery. This trait gives them know/cast/deny two powers a turn.

 

The Malleus-specific psychic power Warding Incantation gives a 5++ to an Imperium Infantry unit within 12”. Castigation is a juiced-up smite based on enemy unit’s leadership. I would recommend those.

 

For the relic, the Blackshroud subtracts 1 from the wound roll for attacks against the Inquisitor himself.

 

If you use the stratagem Consolidate Squads every turn, you can start to build a big blob of Guardsmen with a 5++, at LD 9. Take an Astropath and cast Psychic Barrier to turn that 5++ into a 4++, and now you’re cooking with gas. Take a Platoon Commander, and you can order that growing blob to move around or FRFSRF.

 

Just my thoughts!

 

Edit: the inquisitor costs the same as one infantry squad, by the way. So with 120 bodies, I think you can afford to lose a squad in exchange for the buffs.

Interesting, I may give that a  try.

[domsto]

If you use the stratagem Consolidate Squads every turn, you can start to build a big blob of Guardsmen with a 5++, at LD 9. Take an Astropath and cast Psychic Barrier to turn that 5++ into a 4++, and now you’re cooking with gas. Take a Platoon Commander, and you can order that growing blob to move around or FRFSRF.

Didn't they FAQ Psychic Barrier that it doesn't effect Invuls?

[jarms48]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ubi8pr/meta_monday_42422_new_dataslate_in_the_house/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

 

Well, results are in. Guard are still bad, Hammer of the Emperor wasn't the buff we needed. We're at 26% winrate despite the balance dataslate.

[domsto]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ubi8pr/meta_monday_42422_new_dataslate_in_the_house/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

 

Well, results are in. Guard are still bad, Hammer of the Emperor wasn't the buff we needed. We're at 26% winrate despite the balance dataslate.

I am not surprised. Hammer of the Emperor is nice, but not a big Deal as many of our Guns are comparable low AP and Damage, AoC is a big Problem for us.

Also with the 60 Points price Tag on Infantry we actually can field even less Squads now, and Infantry Squads are our main way to Win as they make the most VP for us.

[TCC]

Played the new Nids codex again (different army list and a different player to the last nids list) the nids were a good list with two hive tyrant’s (one winged that kept retreating into reserves after wiping a vehicle in close combat) the other had the nasty relic gun that does -5AP and flat 5D (a tank buster). 
Anyway we got to T4 completed before we had to stop due to time. The scores were 60 to nids and 45 to guard - I made one mistake that could have added 5 points to me and taken 5 points from nids.

It felt like I was always on the back foot and the nids were very powerful, they had a -1 to hit on all units over 18inch and the big monsters had inv saves too. I think I did well to hang on to T5 and with his list it would be very unlikely to get a guard win (the last nids list I played in comparison was much more fluffy and less powerful against guard).