Ideas and Hopes for the next Codex

[Maritn]

 

Their biggest problem is not the lost of 4++ but the lost of FLY. Opponents can moveblock too easy and you have to fly around buildings all to often.

I agree with GW's view that Repulsors and what not shouldn't park on top of tiny houses and ruins, but stripping away the ability to move over terrain and units from vehicles that literally hover is even more wrong.

 

They need some sort of rule that allows them to hover over terrain and models, but not end the move atop a building.

To be honest, I'd rather see fly removed from everything that is not an aircraft and replaced with some other keyword, that not completely ignores terrain but changes the interaction with terrain. E.g. jump troops halve their movement when moving into terrain and can not jump over area terrain like ruins, and things like Dark Eldar grav tanks just ignore difficult terrain and enemy models but not ruins. Would make for a more interesting and better to balance game. Edited May 20, 2022 by Maritn

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

More First Born units moved to legends. There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born. Personally, I'd like to see a Primaris Spartan based on the Repulsor, but slightly bigger for more transport space. I'd also like to see a heavy MBT, like Primaris Sicarans. But for the most part, as someone who has several thousand points in First Born, I'd like to see the repetitive units legends'd out for book space and for more Primaris units. There's 60% of the Marine range to replace and Primaris have been around for almost 5 years. It's time to start trying to finish the range up.

Cool, so just screw all of the people who prefer Firstborn? How about no?

 

Either combine the ranges properly, or Primaris can sod off, how about that?

 

Edit: To clarify a little: how are Devastators "repetitive", but not Hellblasters? One is flexible and provides multiple options; the other literally takes up the exact same design space but is only there because "New! Buy now!"

I really disagree with this mentality too. Like boo-hoo because you have to turn a few extra pages to find your primaris marines. Just throw 30 years of marines and fan's enjoyment into the trash, because of your book is too heavy. Cheese and rice.

 

Ideally, it would be nice to have separate Firstborn and Primaris codexes, each half the price of the current book. But since they have shared keywords, you can just buy both books and construct any marine army you wish. But the purists of both sides can get their precious streamlined books.

 

However, in reality, i hope this never happens. Because let's face it, primaris will get updated sooner and more constantly, while Firstborn are left to rot with no updates.

 

At least with them together, everyone wins, except those too lazy to turn pages. Like seriously, just photocopy and print out the primaris only rules and put them in a binder. Please don't kill the hobby for everyone else.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

More First Born units moved to legends. There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born. Personally, I'd like to see a Primaris Spartan based on the Repulsor, but slightly bigger for more transport space. I'd also like to see a heavy MBT, like Primaris Sicarans. But for the most part, as someone who has several thousand points in First Born, I'd like to see the repetitive units legends'd out for book space and for more Primaris units. There's 60% of the Marine range to replace and Primaris have been around for almost 5 years. It's time to start trying to finish the range up.

Cool, so just screw all of the people who prefer Firstborn? How about no?

 

Either combine the ranges properly, or Primaris can sod off, how about that?

 

Edit: To clarify a little: how are Devastators "repetitive", but not Hellblasters? One is flexible and provides multiple options; the other literally takes up the exact same design space but is only there because "New! Buy now!"

I really disagree with this mentality too. Like boo-hoo because you have to turn a few extra pages to find your primaris marines. Just throw 30 years of marines and fan's enjoyment into the trash, because of your book is too heavy. Cheese and rice.

 

Ideally, it would be nice to have separate Firstborn and Primaris codexes, each half the price of the current book. But since they have shared keywords, you can just buy both books and construct any marine army you wish. But the purists of both sides can get their precious streamlined books.

 

However, in reality, i hope this never happens. Because let's face it, primaris will get updated sooner and more constantly, while Firstborn are left to rot with no updates.

 

At least with them together, everyone wins, except those too lazy to turn pages. Like seriously, just photocopy and print out the primaris only rules and put them in a binder. Please don't kill the hobby for everyone else.

FB purists just need to come to terms with the fact that sooner or later there will only be primaris.

[Kallas]

FB purists just need to come to terms with the fact that sooner or later there will only be primaris.

 

I own Primaris, I like some of the Primaris models. But the argument that we should just can Firstborn and be done with it, without any consideration for the massive amount of legacy models is pretty tone-deaf.

 

Firstborn units should be rolled into Primaris units, not Legends-ed. Taking a unit out of the Codex and putting it in Legends effectively kills it: it's no longer updated and quickly forgotten, especially competitively but also in less competitive areas. To do this with Firstborn en masse (as this post suggested) would be far more extreme than any previous Squatting. It would be tantamount to a WHFB->AoS situation, albeit limited to Astartes.

 

Given that there will be many players out there with large collections of Firstborn, removing them from the Codex entirely is a losing proposition: there should be consideration taken to include those models, even if it is simply as a Primaris option (eg, Intercessors being able to take special weapons and then releasing an Intercessor upgrade sprue, or something; but that would allow Firstborn Tactical squads to be deployed using Primaris rules).

 

Edit: To add to a previous point I made about the post that created this quote-chain:

 

 

More First Born units moved to legends. There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born.

 

The argument here is specious: the implication is that there are too many Firstborn duplicates (using the example of the Land Speeders) but ignoring the exact same issues with Primaris (eg, Stormspeeders which also have duplicate Datasheets - these duplications should be rolled in together, but the idea is that Firstborn should be Legends-ed and that is the point made by a poor argument.)

Edited May 21, 2022 by Kallas

[Mike8404]

 

 

More First Born units moved to legends. There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born. Personally, I'd like to see a Primaris Spartan based on the Repulsor, but slightly bigger for more transport space. I'd also like to see a heavy MBT, like Primaris Sicarans. But for the most part, as someone who has several thousand points in First Born, I'd like to see the repetitive units legends'd out for book space and for more Primaris units. There's 60% of the Marine range to replace and Primaris have been around for almost 5 years. It's time to start trying to finish the range up.

Cool, so just screw all of the people who prefer Firstborn? How about no?

 

Either combine the ranges properly, or Primaris can sod off, how about that?

 

Edit: To clarify a little: how are Devastators "repetitive", but not Hellblasters? One is flexible and provides multiple options; the other literally takes up the exact same design space but is only there because "New! Buy now!"

Got a problem with it? Talk to GW. The rest of us with FB had to deal with it, you will too. Until then, yes. Remove first born. Primaris are the new hotness and are taking over the range. Get used to it.

 

Don't ask me why Hellblasters couldn't be put into the same kit as Eradicators. Who knows what GW was thinking.

 

As I stated, FB should continue being legen'd out to clear up the horrible bloat the dex has. You've known for 5 years now that Primaris ate taking the range over, is a little late to be surprised

[Kallas]

Got a problem with it? Talk to GW. The rest of us with FB had to deal with it, you will too. Until then, yes. Remove first born. Primaris are the new hotness and are taking over the range. Get used to it.

Don't ask me why Hellblasters couldn't be put into the same kit as Eradicators. Who knows what GW was thinking.

 

As I stated, FB should continue being legen'd out to clear up the horrible bloat the dex has. You've known for 5 years now that Primaris ate taking the range over, is a little late to be surprised

 

Nah, I'll continue to be pissed off at Primaris. I don't actually have to like what's happening thanks, so how about you shove that "can the Firstborn" principle and accept that some people actually still want to enjoy using their models.

 

I do understand that Primaris are taking over, which is why I want Firstborn to be assimilated, not just dumped like you seem to want for some stupid reason.

[Mike8404]

 

 

Got a problem with it? Talk to GW. The rest of us with FB had to deal with it, you will too. Until then, yes. Remove first born. Primaris are the new hotness and are taking over the range. Get used to it.

Don't ask me why Hellblasters couldn't be put into the same kit as Eradicators. Who knows what GW was thinking.

 

As I stated, FB should continue being legen'd out to clear up the horrible bloat the dex has. You've known for 5 years now that Primaris ate taking the range over, is a little late to be surprised

Nah, I'll continue to be pissed off at Primaris. I don't actually have to like what's happening thanks, so how about you shove that "can the Firstborn" principle and accept that some people actually still want to enjoy using their models.

 

I do understand that Primaris are taking over, which is why I want Firstborn to be assimilated, not just dumped like you seem to want for some stupid reason.

 

how about you grow up and act like an adult? Primaris are taking over the range. Get used to it and take your own advice. There's no need for a dozen different units that overlap with each other, First Born sculpts are old (as someone with around 5k points in FB), and GW has been putting old units into Legends. This is the new discretion to the hobby. Primaris are taking the factiom in a new direction and FB don't fit with that direction. It sucks, but that's the way it is. Its been 5 years, It's time to put FB away and finish the range out. There's no need to keep dragging it out.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Mike8404

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

 

Got a problem with it? Talk to GW. The rest of us with FB had to deal with it, you will too. Until then, yes. Remove first born. Primaris are the new hotness and are taking over the range. Get used to it.

Don't ask me why Hellblasters couldn't be put into the same kit as Eradicators. Who knows what GW was thinking.

 

As I stated, FB should continue being legen'd out to clear up the horrible bloat the dex has. You've known for 5 years now that Primaris ate taking the range over, is a little late to be surprised

Nah, I'll continue to be pissed off at Primaris. I don't actually have to like what's happening thanks, so how about you shove that "can the Firstborn" principle and accept that some people actually still want to enjoy using their models.

 

I do understand that Primaris are taking over, which is why I want Firstborn to be assimilated, not just dumped like you seem to want for some stupid reason.

 

how about you grow up and act like an adult?

Not really productive, my dude. It comes off as less mature to try to invalidate others and send off ad hominem attacks, than it does to present a reasonable argument, albeit with a little emotion, as Kallas did. Please keep personal insults out of this.

 

For the record, I too own lots of primaris and mostly like them. But they don't take away my love of the entire 40k universes setting and battles between the Heresy and Indomitus Crusade. The Firstborn range is like 90% still great, and there is a lot of diversity for modeling, kitbashing, list building, and more. I'd die a little if they legend'd them.

 

I also just don't think they will. There is too much history and branding wrapped up in those old marines. Some people like units with options they can tweak, not cookie cutter units. Some people like treads over hovercraft. Some people like the older designs. Honestly games workshop could just update the old designs as they have done with the Mk VI and it would sell easy.

 

So on topic. My main hope, is that the next codex maintains the course of promoting primaris (if need be) but not forgetting its roots, and staying reverent to the marines that have defended the Imperium for 10,000 years.

[jaxom]

I'd like a generic super-doctrine; or maybe three to choose from, one for each Doctrine. It's the one thing in the codex supplements that makes me feel like they are a pay-for-advantage compared to just wanting to use what is in the codex. Maybe even a page per gene-line which has their chapter tactic, three warlord traits, two stratagems, the super-doctrine, and a relic.

[Orange Knight]

Firstborn can't be rolled into Primaris units because the design ethos is so radically different.

 

The Primaris are more similar to Eldar Aspects in the way the individual units function. Each is specialised with a clear and defined purpose, where-as the classic Astartes are all generalists with the exception of a few units.

 

Primaris, from a tabletop standpoint, basically took a lot of ideas from the Horus Heresy legions, but went one step further by having more power armour variety across different unit types. You can run entire Tacticus, Phobos or Gravis armies with units that equip those armours spread across different force organisations slots. This allows you to optimise the army even more, for example, around durability or deployment options, etc, etc.

 

In my view, the downside of the classic range, particularly in terms of how it functions in 40k, is that it basically dates back to Rogue Trader in certain ways. The customisation of units like Tacticals or Assault Marines is better suited to small, RPG skirmish games as opposed to dedicated wargames.

 

Currently some Primaris units aren't as competitive due to high costs, and there are a few particular roles that haven't been addressed. Once Primaris get dedicated long range fire support squads, and flying combat units, they will likely perform better than Firstborn Devastator and Vanguard simply because the units will be even more optimised around their intended role.

 

The Primaris range is not yet complete, and I do expect that some future Veteran units will offer customisation more akin to what is found with the classic range (this has already happened with the BT Sword Brethren), but eventually all roles and functions will be filled, and they will likely perform their jobs better.

 

I have collected 4 Astartes armies at different points in my life, often each new one replaced the prior. As long as you remain interested in the hobby, collecting and adding to your armies never really stops. It's why I ultimately had no reservations about starting a Primaris force, and it took me over a year from buying the 1st models before I even put them on the table, and that's ok because no one needs to rush. I simply couldn't imagine myself not wanting to add to my Astartes army for years just because the updated range signals a gradual replacement of the older one.

[CCE1981]

I kind of like the Dark Angel version of the Super Doctrine, a different buff for different units for each doctrine.

 

Just as an example, it could be something like:

 

Salamanders could be something like weather the storm, a way for Salamanders to tank better in the devastator doctrine, it’s current super doctrine in tactical, and maybe something where their flamers count as pistols in the assault doctrine.

 

Note I don’t mean this as what it should be just an example of it.

[Mike8404]

 

 

 

 

Got a problem with it? Talk to GW. The rest of us with FB had to deal with it, you will too. Until then, yes. Remove first born. Primaris are the new hotness and are taking over the range. Get used to it.

Don't ask me why Hellblasters couldn't be put into the same kit as Eradicators. Who knows what GW was thinking.

 

As I stated, FB should continue being legen'd out to clear up the horrible bloat the dex has. You've known for 5 years now that Primaris ate taking the range over, is a little late to be surprised

Nah, I'll continue to be pissed off at Primaris. I don't actually have to like what's happening thanks, so how about you shove that "can the Firstborn" principle and accept that some people actually still want to enjoy using their models.

 

I do understand that Primaris are taking over, which is why I want Firstborn to be assimilated, not just dumped like you seem to want for some stupid reason.

 

how about you grow up and act like an adult?

Not really productive, my dude. It comes off as less mature to try to invalidate others and send off ad hominem attacks, than it does to present a reasonable argument, albeit with a little emotion, as Kallas did. Please keep personal insults out of this.

 

For the record, I too own lots of primaris and mostly like them. But they don't take away my love of the entire 40k universes setting and battles between the Heresy and Indomitus Crusade. The Firstborn range is like 90% still great, and there is a lot of diversity for modeling, kitbashing, list building, and more. I'd die a little if they legend'd them.

 

I also just don't think they will. There is too much history and branding wrapped up in those old marines. Some people like units with options they can tweak, not cookie cutter units. Some people like treads over hovercraft. Some people like the older designs. Honestly games workshop could just update the old designs as they have done with the Mk VI and it would sell easy.

 

So on topic. My main hope, is that the next codex maintains the course of promoting primaris (if need be) but not forgetting its roots, and staying reverent to the marines that have defended the Imperium for 10,000 years.

I'm all about keeping things productive. But I'm also not for being crapped on about preferences over plastic toys, either. Like I said, I have First Born too, a lot in fact. Razorbacks, Predators, Assault Marines, Crusader Squads, dev squads, Sternguard, Honor Guard, Company Vets, ECT. The progress in that discussion went out the window as soon as he was telling me to, quote "sod off". But yes, back on point.

 

It's quite obvious GW is replacing First Born, and we should be looking at retiring units as they're replaced instead of bloating our codex further. We don't need a dozen of the same units when you can only take 3 in most of the army lists and we don't need 6 troop choices. What we need is a streamlining of the army and a stance from GW on just what they plan on doing. This is the stance I take.

 

Edit: look at Storm Speeders and Assault Intercessors. Why take either when there's a FB unit that's cheaper and, afaik with speeders, the FB version is better and cheaper. This isn't a good look for GW because they've effectively taken the army and split it into 2 seperate functions. Some units they retire (bikes, Honor Guard, Champions) and replace, others they keep and overlap (Assault Intercessors, Intercessors, Speeders). I just can't see the sense in it. If they're going to retire FB, I'd rather they do it now and get it over with than drag it out further. They could spend this time on other armies instead of dumping out new Primaris and holding LSM in limbo about what they want to do with the army.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Mike8404

[phandaal]

I kind of like the Dark Angel version of the Super Doctrine, a different buff for different units for each doctrine.

 

Just as an example, it could be something like:

 

Salamanders could be something like weather the storm, a way for Salamanders to tank better in the devastator doctrine, it’s current super doctrine in tactical, and maybe something where their flamers count as pistols in the assault doctrine.

 

Note I don’t mean this as what it should be just an example of it.

Dark Angels super doctrines are great. Would be nice to be able to use them whenever though. Ravenwing super doctrine is unavailable for 80% of the game, for example.

[Malakithe]

 

I kind of like the Dark Angel version of the Super Doctrine, a different buff for different units for each doctrine.

 

Just as an example, it could be something like:

 

Salamanders could be something like weather the storm, a way for Salamanders to tank better in the devastator doctrine, it’s current super doctrine in tactical, and maybe something where their flamers count as pistols in the assault doctrine.

 

Note I don’t mean this as what it should be just an example of it.

Dark Angels super doctrines are great. Would be nice to be able to use them whenever though. Ravenwing super doctrine is unavailable for 80% of the game, for example.

 

I dont like the idea of super doctrines at all for this very reason. 

[jaxom]

I kind of like the Dark Angel version of the Super Doctrine, a different buff for different units for each doctrine.

 

Just as an example, it could be something like:

 

Salamanders could be something like weather the storm, a way for Salamanders to tank better in the devastator doctrine, it’s current super doctrine in tactical, and maybe something where their flamers count as pistols in the assault doctrine.

 

Note I don’t mean this as what it should be just an example of it.

 

 

Dark Angels super doctrines are great. Would be nice to be able to use them whenever though. Ravenwing super doctrine is unavailable for 80% of the game, for example.

 

 

I dont like the idea of super doctrines at all for this very reason. 

 

Dark Angels are an odd design duck because of their history, but I do like the general idea of super-doctrines applying an effect to each phase. I'd lean towards them not being unit specific, to avoid the Dark Angel issue. I think that it would also help fix the current have and have-nots of regarding Devastator vs Tactical vs Assault based super-doctrines.

 

I'm going to have a think, maybe post ideas for each of the main chapters later.

[Kallas]

I'm all about keeping things productive. But I'm also not for being crapped on about preferences over plastic toys, either. Like I said, I have First Born too, a lot in fact. Razorbacks, Predators, Assault Marines, Crusader Squads, dev squads, Sternguard, Honor Guard, Company Vets, ECT. The progress in that discussion went out the window as soon as he was telling me to, quote "sod off".

 

Fun fact! I didn't tell you to sod off. Please try rereading the actual post and using your adult reading comprehension skills!

Here, I'll even copy it in here so you don't have to go looking for it:

 

More First Born units moved to legends. There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born. Personally, I'd like to see a Primaris Spartan based on the Repulsor, but slightly bigger for more transport space. I'd also like to see a heavy MBT, like Primaris Sicarans. But for the most part, as someone who has several thousand points in First Born, I'd like to see the repetitive units legends'd out for book space and for more Primaris units. There's 60% of the Marine range to replace and Primaris have been around for almost 5 years. It's time to start trying to finish the range up.

 

Cool, so just screw all of the people who prefer Firstborn? How about no?

 

Either combine the ranges properly, or Primaris can sod off, how about that?

 

Edit: To clarify a little: how are Devastators "repetitive", but not Hellblasters? One is flexible and provides multiple options; the other literally takes up the exact same design space but is only there because "New! Buy now!"

 

I've even underlined and bolded the relevant section, so you can more easily read it! Maybe in future you can act like an adult and actually understand the difference between someone dismantling your argument, and a personal attack: which is what you decided to go for instead of addressing my actual points.

 

I'll continue my position, which you have ignored entirely, after the rest of your post:

 

But yes, back on point.

It's quite obvious GW is replacing First Born, and we should be looking at retiring units as they're replaced instead of bloating our codex further. We don't need a dozen of the same units when you can only take 3 in most of the army lists and we don't need 6 troop choices. What we need is a streamlining of the army and a stance from GW on just what they plan on doing. This is the stance I take.

 

Edit: look at Storm Speeders and Assault Intercessors. Why take either when there's a FB unit that's cheaper and, afaik with speeders, the FB version is better and cheaper. This isn't a good look for GW because they've effectively taken the army and split it into 2 seperate functions. Some units they retire (bikes, Honor Guard, Champions) and replace, others they keep and overlap (Assault Intercessors, Intercessors, Speeders). I just can't see the sense in it. If they're going to retire FB, I'd rather they do it now and get it over with than drag it out further. They could spend this time on other armies instead of dumping out new Primaris and holding LSM in limbo about what they want to do with the army.

 

As I have said already, there is no attempt by GW to reduce the number of Datasheets. Calling for a reduction in the number of FB Datasheets simply to retire them quicker is inane.

 

Storm Speeders are three separate Datasheets for no good reason: they could more than easily be a single Datasheet with options, and even have the option of squadrons (possibly even with the squadron splitting up post-deployment) if they wanted people to be able to field a good number of them.

 

Same with Hellblasters and Eradicators. You call for Devastators to be retired because, and I quote directly, "There are, what, 7 different speeders? Why? We also don't need 9 troop choices. Let us keep our FW options, like Contemptors (which don't have an equivelant), but cut out stuff like Dev squads, Assault squads, Tac squads, Scout squads, the rhino chassis, some Land Raiders, ect. If GW is going to commit to Primaris then they can focus on finishing that range and cutting down on First Born."

 

Here's the question: why are Primaris getting 'new' units that are direct replacements for Firstborn units (which is completely opposite of one of GW's initial statements regarding Primaris: that they are not supposed to be replacing Firstborn)? Hellblasters/Eradicators are clear replacements for Devastators, the only difference being the lack of Bolter-wielders and actual options: why, then are you suggesting that we reduce Firstborn units?

 

Your point rests solely on the principle that Primaris must replace Firstborn. Why? And further to that, why on Earth must one accept this happily and move on?

 

You say that you have plenty of Firstborn and are fine with this happening. Why? And why must I be ok with this? Yes, I fully accept that GW is pushing Primaris, I have made many statements about this in many other threads, because I do see the writing on the wall: but why should I be happy about it? Why should I be happy that my Land Raiders, which I have great love for, are being persistently downgraded and reduced to push Primaris units that I neither love nor want - I despise the aesthetic design of the Repulsor, and the rules for it leave so much to be desired, even from just a simplicity point-of-view (having 432 different guns with marginally different profiles on one model is just gross to play with).

 

So, to actually go back to one of my original points in this thread: why should Firstborn be the ones to be discarded, and why should Primaris and Firstborn not be consolidated (since Primaris are undoubtedly the future) so that people who enjoy Firstborn can continue to play with their models without being completely discarded?

 

For Legends'ing Firstborn, there's still the point to be addressed: once a unit becomes Legends, it is functionally dead. It will interesting to see, once GW finally decides to pull the trigger on 10th, how they will handle Legends. If they just move on and leave them as-is with no 10th Ed update (since they have said they don't intend to update the Legends stuff) then that will just be confirmation of this. As someone who has bought much more Firstborn stuff in the past 3-4 years than Primaris stuff, why should I be ok with my new purchases being made entirely redundant? Not even talking about specific loadouts: you're talking about wholesale range Squatting.

 

So instead of Legends, considering that Marines are far and away the biggest component of GW's income, why not put some effort into incorporating Firstborn and Primaris Datasheets. Yes, Intercessors do not have the same weapon options as Tactical squads, but it would also open up options for Primaris players: take some Intercessors and throw in some Hellblasters (assuming, for a moment, that they could simply use Primaris weapon options, eg, Plasma Incinerators instead of Firstborn Plasma Guns) for a little more firepower. In this way, owners of large collections of Firstborn could continue to use their models instead of being discarded by GW entirely.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Kallas

[Blindhamster]

I honestly think it’s most likely to be how it goes, it’s probably (hilariously) almost time for the intercessors retool. I could see them doing an intercessors box with some options like tactical marines and including a few firstborn-like bits to represent marines that crossed the rubicon, showing how the combat doctrines have blended

[Orange Knight]

Moving old models to legends is not the same as them being discarded by GW entirely, especially if the process is gradual.

 

The updating of the range has been a slow process, I believe we're at the 5 year mark at this point? Or has it been longer?

 

Streamlining a codex is a good idea at this point.

I assume the arguments we're seeing stems from people who don't want to update their armies?

I'm curious if some are simply refusing to collect Primaris?

If so, this must have a very negative impact on hobbying. If your main army is Astartes it would mean that you've disengaged from the collecting and painting side of things for every release over the last 5 years.

 

I don't know what GW will do, or when. The Primaris range isn't at the stage where the classic models can be fully separated, and chapters are still missing updates of their iconic model - such as Sanguinary Guards, Deathwing Terminators, etc. If the Black Templars are anything to go by, this will eventually change.

 

To add:

 

It's hard to say how much financial contribution the older kits are adding at this point. Some will still sell well, but that seems to be linked to their tabletop performance. There was a period when the Thunderfire Canon was sold out, but at that moment it had very compelling rules. It's no longer the case now.

The classic model sales are clearly not insignificant, but I imagine they have been dwarfed by the Primaris releases over the last 5 years.

 

It's hard to say what will happen, but I could envision a time when the shelf space is occupied entirely by Primaris for 40k, and the new Horus Heresy kits in their own 30k section. If anything, I think the plastic 30k game will speed up the replacement of the older kits.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Dark Shepherd]

I hope the new codex brings peace, love, and harmony

[jaxom]

Just some thoughts

 

White Scars

Devastator

To the Hunt

Heavy Weapons become Assault.

 

Tactical

Watch the Horizon

Units entering from reserve +1 to hit with shooting

 

Assault

Devastating Charge

+1 Damage w/Shock Assault

 

Space Wolves

Devastator

Fang's Wisdom

Heavy support ranged add 1 to wound.

 

Tactical

Intuitive Tactics

Unmod 6 to hit scores an additional hit.

 

Assault

Savage Fury

Unmod 6 to hit scores an additional hit.

 

Imperial Fists

Devastator

Legacy of Dorn

Str 7 and higher weapons gain +1 Damage against a VEHICLE, BUILDING, or MONSTER

 

Tactical

Breach and Clear

Grenades and Frag Launchers gain 3" of range, can use Meltabomb strat for 0 CP. 

 

Imperium's Shield

Assault

Enemies cannot reroll hit rolls while in engagement range

 

Blood Angels

Devastator

Angel's Wings

Grav-tanks gain FLY, can use LUCIFER PATTERN ENGINES for 0 CP.

 

Tactical

Chains of Discipline

Combat Attrition rolls on fail on an unmodified 1.

 

Assault

Savage Echoes

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The updating of the range has been a slow process, I believe we're at the 5 year mark at this point? Or has it been longer?

 

 

Five years as of this June.

 

I honestly think it’s most likely to be how it goes, it’s probably (hilariously) almost time for the intercessors retool. I could see them doing an intercessors box with some options like tactical marines and including a few firstborn-like bits to represent marines that crossed the rubicon, showing how the combat doctrines have blended

 

Well, I've been predicting a generic Space Marines upgrade kit ever since I saw the Black Templars upgrade kit, but I would expect it to be primarily aimed at the Intercessors. Right now the chapter-agnostic options for the Sergeant weapons (outside of kitbashing from kits like Sgt Jovan's chainsword) would require buying the Assault Intercessors box*, which is a very poor design and goes against pretty much everything we've seen for the Primaris. So a separate kit with a new complement of melee weapon bits and possibly an option for one guy in five to take a Heavy Bolt Rifle of the same type as the squad's bolt rilfe (as an alternative to the Grenade Launcher) would make sense. They could also then throw in plenty of "veteran" style bits along the lines of this new Phobos Strike Team upgrade sprue as well.

 

BUT they could just flat-out update the Intercessor kit as you suggest rather than releasing it as a separate product like the Black Templars upgrade kit.

 

* Yeah, they could also get the Plasma Pistol from the Bladeguard, but same problem in that it involves buying a completely different squad box in order to get the bits mentioned on the Interecessor squad's datasheet. Just not in keeping with the post-Chapterhouse approach that GW has taken with the Primaris.

[Medjugorje]

This discussion shows how dramatically different we are. Not just what we prefer in special chases.

 

I thought this discussions is just about game play and formyself I really dont care the FB vs Primaris discussion. I really disappointed to talk about here because for myself the new codex dont adress this. It should be much more about game mechanics and rules, and therefore @Mike804 - you dont like restrictions in 40k but there are two things why I think they are really important:

 

1. Game balance. 

The harder a list can be build the better the game system works.

the disadvanteges should be more very carefully handled.

 

2. more diversity 

i

[XeonDragon]

My hope for next codex is for each "supplement" codex to have at least a couple of fleshed-out successors based built from the ground up, e.g. BA have the Flesh Tearers who have their own traits. I'd love to see RG get the Raptors and for the raptors to not just be (for example) master artisans + bolter fusillades or the space sharks being WWOR + stealthy. 

 

I'd also like to see:

 

1. Transport flexibility 

2. Equipment flexibility for Primaris

3. Lt's with a ++ save (maybe 5++ instead of 4++?)

5. Some fluff about first-born only chapters being rediscovered on the very fringes of the Imperium Nihilus that have held out, with some special rules for them.

6. Balances to plasma and melta weapons.

7. Las cannons going to D3+3 or D6 minimum of 3.

[Guest Triszin]

=][= Thread will be locked for a brief period. For moderator review and for people to cool off =][=



Update:

This thread is for ideas and suggestions.
Be constructive, and polite, even if you disagree with a suggestion.
You can still constructively discuss why, and how to better an idea, or offer a different view point that others may not have considered.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Triszin

[Mike8404]

This discussion shows how dramatically different we are. Not just what we prefer in special chases.

 

I thought this discussions is just about game play and formyself I really dont care the FB vs Primaris discussion. I really disappointed to talk about here because for myself the new codex dont adress this. It should be much more about game mechanics and rules, and therefore @Mike804 - you dont like restrictions in 40k but there are two things why I think they are really important:

 

1. Game balance.

The harder a list can be build the better the game system works.

the disadvanteges should be more very carefully handled.

 

2. more diversity

i

I think we agree on a lot here, mostly that there does need to be balance. But I feel like if we limit an army to its playstyle, like Fists being only shooty and Templars being only fighty, that can actually do more harm than good to the army, if that makes sense?

 

For example, when I started Templars back sometime around late '17 early '18, I wanted a fluffy army. Lots of melee. But when I asked what I should buy, it was unanimously "Intercessors, Redemptors, and Executioners". I didn't like that because it didn't fit how I wanted my army ton play. In fact, the current backbone of my Templars are SS/SB Company Veterans, because I wanted a unit that could shoot decent and have staying power to back up my BGV and Characters, that's how I want what I build to work. So I think restricting an army to one playstyle could be too limiting, but I do agree there needs to be a lot more balancing. I have an idea how that could be done, but that's a conversation for another day.

 

Oh, and hopes for the next codex, Marines finally getting to ride in Impulsors/Repulsors and vice versa. Oh, and make narrative play the #1 way to play again. Those are my biggest wishes for the new dex(s)