Ideas and Hopes for the next Codex

[UnkyHamHam]

It's not even just a FB/Primaris issue as much a it's "why was this unit discontinued for this Primaris unit, but this one, which does the same thing, wasn't". That causes a lot of bloat too. We don't need a FB version of a Primaris unit and vice versa if GW is going to continue to replace the range.

 

It doesn't do anything but make the army feel bipolar. Either split the army, or focus on finishing the Primaris range so the army can be cohesive

I'm interested if you can provide a single example of a FB unit receiving a Primaris "replacement" and either the fluff or GW having said as much, then subsequently retiring the previously mentioned FB unit?

 

As far as I can tell, anything in the FB range that has been Lengended, were either limited/promo models, or models that have never officially had a kit and required kit bashing or 3rd party bits.

 

So everything in Legends looks to me to be subject to the "no models, no rules [support]" stance of GW.

 

Please provide an example to the question above to substantiate your argument. Otherwise, we can move on from that nonsense.

 

Edit: punctuation

Edited May 30, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[Mike8404]

 

It's not even just a FB/Primaris issue as much a it's "why was this unit discontinued for this Primaris unit, but this one, which does the same thing, wasn't". That causes a lot of bloat too. We don't need a FB version of a Primaris unit and vice versa if GW is going to continue to replace the range.

 

It doesn't do anything but make the army feel bipolar. Either split the army, or focus on finishing the Primaris range so the army can be cohesive

I'm interested if you can provide a single example of a FB unit receiving a Primaris "replacement" and either the fluff or GW having said as much, then subsequently retiring the previously mentioned FB unit?

 

As far as I can tell, anything in the FB range that has been Lengended, were either limited/promo models, or models that have never officially had a kit and required kit bashing or 3rd party bits.

 

So everything in Legends looks to me to be subject to the "no models, no rules [support]" stance of GW.

 

Please provide an example to the question above to substantiate your argument. Otherwise, we can move on from that nonsense.

 

Edit: punctuation

Bikers. Replaced when Outriders were releasing.

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

It's not even just a FB/Primaris issue as much a it's "why was this unit discontinued for this Primaris unit, but this one, which does the same thing, wasn't". That causes a lot of bloat too. We don't need a FB version of a Primaris unit and vice versa if GW is going to continue to replace the range.

 

It doesn't do anything but make the army feel bipolar. Either split the army, or focus on finishing the Primaris range so the army can be cohesive

I'm interested if you can provide a single example of a FB unit receiving a Primaris "replacement" and either the fluff or GW having said as much, then subsequently retiring the previously mentioned FB unit?

 

As far as I can tell, anything in the FB range that has been Lengended, were either limited/promo models, or models that have never officially had a kit and required kit bashing or 3rd party bits.

 

So everything in Legends looks to me to be subject to the "no models, no rules [support]" stance of GW.

 

Please provide an example to the question above to substantiate your argument. Otherwise, we can move on from that nonsense.

 

Edit: punctuation

Bikers. Replaced when Outriders were releasing.

Yet the unit of FB bikes have not been retired as you have insinuated in your previous post. There is no precedent set to validate your argument.

 

Tho I will agree with you on the idea that outriders do "mostly" make FB bike squads obsolete. Even tho they don't get the same options. The issue is that GW still, as of now, considers them both valid and "up to date" units as far as the rules are concerned.

 

We have zero examples of a primaris unit "replacing" a FB unit at the moment. Even if some do mostly replace the role on either a game design or aesthetic level.

[Mike8404]

 

 

 

It's not even just a FB/Primaris issue as much a it's "why was this unit discontinued for this Primaris unit, but this one, which does the same thing, wasn't". That causes a lot of bloat too. We don't need a FB version of a Primaris unit and vice versa if GW is going to continue to replace the range.

 

It doesn't do anything but make the army feel bipolar. Either split the army, or focus on finishing the Primaris range so the army can be cohesive

I'm interested if you can provide a single example of a FB unit receiving a Primaris "replacement" and either the fluff or GW having said as much, then subsequently retiring the previously mentioned FB unit?

 

As far as I can tell, anything in the FB range that has been Lengended, were either limited/promo models, or models that have never officially had a kit and required kit bashing or 3rd party bits.

 

So everything in Legends looks to me to be subject to the "no models, no rules [support]" stance of GW.

 

Please provide an example to the question above to substantiate your argument. Otherwise, we can move on from that nonsense.

 

Edit: punctuation

Bikers. Replaced when Outriders were releasing.

Yet the unit of FB bikes have not been retired as you have insinuated in your previous post. There is no precedent set to validate your argument.

 

Tho I will agree with you on the idea that outriders do "mostly" make FB bike squads obsolete. Even tho they don't get the same options. The issue is that GW still, as of now, considers them both valid and "up to date" units as far as the rules are concerned.

 

We have zero examples of a primaris unit "replacing" a FB unit at the moment. Even if some do mostly replace the role on either a game design or aesthetic level.

Respectfully, that's not an accurate assessment. Bikers are discontinued, the GW website hasn't has them since Indomitus. Then there's Honor Guard and Company Champions which had models and were legend'sd. Honor Guard were replaced with Victrix Guard and the new Primaris Champion could be an indication a Primaris Version coming soon.

 

They may be valid now, but that could more likely just GW trying to sell off stock before they pull a product

[UnkyHamHam]

Respectfully, back at you... Bike squads are still available to order on the US website as of 30 seconds ago.

 

Honor Guard never had a generic kit like Command Squads/Company Vets. They were Ultramarines specific, but came out in an era when Codex Space Marines was actually just Codex Ultramarines. The Ultra Honor Guard are still legal and in the Ultra supplement. Again, never was a generic kit for all chapters... ie legended.

 

Please continue tho...

 

Edit: didn't notice you mentioned Company Champions too. Assuming you meant Chapter Champs. Chapter Champs follow the same argument I laid out for the Ultra Honor Guard. Company Champs are still produced, and not in Legends.

Edited May 30, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[Kallas]

Respectfully, that's not an accurate assessment. Bikers are discontinued, the GW website hasn't has them since Indomitus. Then there's Honor Guard and Company Champions which had models and were legend'sd. Honor Guard were replaced with Victrix Guard and the new Primaris Champion could be an indication a Primaris Version coming soon.

They may be valid now, but that could more likely just GW trying to sell off stock before they pull a product

 

Bikes are absolutely still available, but Honour Guard -> Victrix is mostly valid (though still odd, because Victrix are Ultramarine-exclusive and can only be obtained along with Marneus Calgar).

 

While I do agree that GW is slowly edged Firstborn units out, your point (that Firstborn units are being retired and replaced at the same time) is mostly invalid. I do believe they are actually doing it the other way: introduce the replacements, let them both sit together for a while and only after the new units have been broadly accepted will they consider removing the old units. To use Bikes as an example: they are still available, but only online orders; so I would not be surprised if they did phase out Bikes considering that Outriders/ATVs have generally been accepted without much fuss.

[Mike8404]

Respectfully, back at you... Bike squads are still available to order on the US website as of 30 seconds ago.

 

Honor Guard never had a generic kit like Command Squads/Company Vets. They were Ultramarines specific, but came out in an era when Codex Space Marines was actually just Codex Ultramarines. The Ultra Honor Guard are still legal and in the Ultra supplement. Again, never was a generic kit for all chapters... ie legended.

 

Please continue tho...

 

Edit: didn't notice you mentioned Company Champions too. Assuming you meant Chapter Champs. Chapter Champs follow the same argument I laid out for the Ultra Honor Guard. Company Champs are still produced, and not in Legends.

I was wrong, when I checked before I made that statement all I could find were Outriders, CSM bikes, and the Eldar stuff. However, Company/Chapter Champions aren't on the store as of my last check 30 seconds ago.

 

My point stands though, maybe more so. We don't need 6 units that do roughly the same thing. Also, when was the last time FB Speeders, Bikes, ect. were ever in a list? Afaik, as someone said above, they're only available online and don't see play like they used to. Wouldn't be surprised if they're gone 10th edition. There's some units that can overlap into 30k, such as tac/assault/dev/Rhino/Land Raiders which will never go away, but Stalkers, Hunters, Speeders, ECT could be cut because they don't see play and largely haven't in years

 

Which sucks, because Comp Vets are a huge part of my armies..

Edited May 30, 2022 by Mike8404

[UnkyHamHam]

 

Respectfully, back at you... Bike squads are still available to order on the US website as of 30 seconds ago.

 

Honor Guard never had a generic kit like Command Squads/Company Vets. They were Ultramarines specific, but came out in an era when Codex Space Marines was actually just Codex Ultramarines. The Ultra Honor Guard are still legal and in the Ultra supplement. Again, never was a generic kit for all chapters... ie legended.

 

Please continue tho...

 

Edit: didn't notice you mentioned Company Champions too. Assuming you meant Chapter Champs. Chapter Champs follow the same argument I laid out for the Ultra Honor Guard. Company Champs are still produced, and not in Legends.

I was wrong, when I checked before I made that statement all I could find were Outriders, CSM bikes, and the Eldar stuff. However, Company/Chapter Champions aren't on the store as of my last check 30 seconds ago.

 

My point stands though, maybe more so. We don't need 6 units that do roughly the same thing. Also, when was the last time FB Speeders, Bikes, ect. were ever in a list? Afaik, as someone said above, they're only available online and don't see play like tgey used to. Wouldn't be surprised if they're gone 10th edition.

 

Which sucks, because Comp Vets are a huge part of my armies..

I totally understand your confusion as you seem very Primaris focused. But there are a selection of FB characters that are built out of the Command Squad/Company Vet kit. Namely the Company Champion, Apothecary, and Company Ancient. Just an FYI I guess, since that kit is also still available.

 

Your point DOES NOT still stand,because you were making multiple points, some more valid than others. This whole back and forth was to disprove the precedent you were trying to set that GW has been actively "replacing" FB kits with Primaris ones then retiring the FB. We've shown that just isn't true.

 

Now that you backtrack to the land Speeder thing, then yes we agree. There were others before you, including myself, making that point pages ago. 1 entry for FB speeders and 1 for Primaris Speeders is a 66% loss in bloated unit entries on speeders.

 

It's irrelevant that units aren't taken in a list, as game play rules change. One day speeders are crap, the next day they are meta. Who cares. What's important in this discussion is that the models are supported. This is why others like Kallas have suggested just combining the FB and Primaris data sheets ensuring everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

[Mike8404]

 

 

Respectfully, back at you... Bike squads are still available to order on the US website as of 30 seconds ago.

 

Honor Guard never had a generic kit like Command Squads/Company Vets. They were Ultramarines specific, but came out in an era when Codex Space Marines was actually just Codex Ultramarines. The Ultra Honor Guard are still legal and in the Ultra supplement. Again, never was a generic kit for all chapters... ie legended.

 

Please continue tho...

 

Edit: didn't notice you mentioned Company Champions too. Assuming you meant Chapter Champs. Chapter Champs follow the same argument I laid out for the Ultra Honor Guard. Company Champs are still produced, and not in Legends.

I was wrong, when I checked before I made that statement all I could find were Outriders, CSM bikes, and the Eldar stuff. However, Company/Chapter Champions aren't on the store as of my last check 30 seconds ago.

 

My point stands though, maybe more so. We don't need 6 units that do roughly the same thing. Also, when was the last time FB Speeders, Bikes, ect. were ever in a list? Afaik, as someone said above, they're only available online and don't see play like tgey used to. Wouldn't be surprised if they're gone 10th edition.

 

Which sucks, because Comp Vets are a huge part of my armies..

I totally understand your confusion as you seem very Primaris focused. But there are a selection of FB characters that are built out of the Command Squad/Company Vet kit. Namely the Company Champion, Apothecary, and Company Ancient. Just an FYI I guess, since that kit is also still available.

 

Your point DOES NOT still stand,because you were making multiple points, some more valid than others. This whole back and forth was to disprove the precedent you were trying to set that GW has been actively "replacing" FB kits with Primaris ones then retiring the FB. We've shown that just isn't true.

 

Now that you backtrack to the land Speeder thing, then yes we agree. There were others before you, including myself, making that point pages ago. 1 entry for FB speeders and 1 for Primaris Speeders is a 66% loss in bloated unit entries on speeders.

 

It's irrelevant that units aren't taken in a list, as game play rules change. One day speeders are crap, the next day they are meta. Who cares. What's important in this discussion is that the models are supported. This is why others like Kallas have suggested just combining the FB and Primaris data sheets ensuring everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

I think to clarify, I was wrong they're replacing FB kits with Primaris. I completely concede there.

 

My greater point is GW should make up their mind if they are going through and totally replacing FB at some point, because, there are a lot of redundancies in units (Assault Intercessors\ Assault Marines, Hellblasters/Dev Squads, Tac Marines/Intercessors, Reivers/Infiltrators/Phobos). Most FB are straight better when it comes to things like Deep-Strike, loadout flexibility, transport options, ECT. They're straight better than the new models getting pushed, like Phobos constantly are, which makes the range as a whole feel bipolar, in a sense. On one hand GW wants to push Primaris to the front, but on the other, FB do everything Primaris do, they do it better, and they're cheaper. Primaris are replacing FB, or will because FB are clearly not getting new model support, but GW is pulling the indecisive girlfriend move and can't decide if they want to finish the range replacement or drag it out 5 more years.

 

And it isn't just us, CSM have had this problem since 7th and Eldar are getting the same treatment, too. Supposedly World Eaters have had the new models ready to go since the new Khârn was released, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have the entire Primaris range complete and are just sitting on them

Edited May 30, 2022 by Mike8404

[WrathOfTheLion]

Aren't company champions in the Company Command kit?

 

Edit: And as far as then having the entire range complete, they almost certainly had most of the Primaris range scoped out from the beginning, even if they're making some design tweaks to unreleased ones, or adding a few sculpts or what not. I think Jes Goodwin might've said something along those lines in one of his interviews.

Edited May 30, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[UnkyHamHam]

@Mike8404 I appreciate the good faith debate and the admittance when one is wrong.

 

Now that you detail out the greater point, I do agree. It's a legit concern we all face. Particularly more so, us players who are still invested in hobbying and gaming with FB marines.

 

One thing I strongly disagree with is that So far, I have appreciated that almost none of the Primaris are a 1:1 comparison. Except characters and maybe Outriders. That nuance allows FB to still have play and show their utility and versatility in the face of the Primaris 1 trick pony doctrine.

 

There has to be a solution that everyone can have their marines playable. Oh wait there is. It's what we have now. But we get nothing but complaints about "bloat" now.

 

My question to all, is the "bloat" really that bad? If we cleaned up and combined datasheets (NOT LEGENDS/RETIRED/DISCONTINUED) , would that help?

 

I wish more people with a hybrid approach to FB and Primaris would help mediate this conversation. There is a lot of hyperbole and overreacting in this thread. Who knows, maybe I'm partially at fault here.

 

Edit: wording

Edited May 31, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[phandaal]

Mike, just stop. You have already derailed this thread into getting locked once. At this point, everyone is aware that you do not like anything that is not a new Primaris model. We get it.

 

Bikes (which are still being sold) are absolutely still taken, because Outriders are bad for their points cost. Multimelta Attack Bikes are taken as well over their ATV counterparts. This can be verified in minutes by looking up lists on any website that aggregates then.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Man, the flak do get thick when you're over the target.

I mean it's also an indication if you get a lot of pushback, that your opinion just isn't a popular one. Trust me, I know haha.

 

Combining datasheets, as I and others suggested, is just an easy win to help clean up a decent chunk of the "bloat" without flat out eliminating or Legending units. There are also offenders that could be easily combined in both Primaris and Firstborn. It's really not a one-sided issue.

 

I will devil's advocate till the cows come home for Firstborn, because they are so often discarded as wasted space by the the modern space marine player base. But I'm looking for solutions that satisfy everyone to some extent. Combining datasheets of like minded units is just a very simple and elegant way to do this across the board. Rule of 3 be damned.

 

 

I don't think firstborn are discarded by new players, its more that the boxsets with discounts are primaris. People tend to only by the stuff they can get a deal on or the best stuff.

 

I mean jump captains have been the best marine hq, Devastators have been really strong in both 8th & 9th, same for vanguard vets. In 9th attack bikes are strong, and I'm sure those units are selling. Who knows what the future holds on this stuff. 

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

 

Man, the flak do get thick when you're over the target.

I mean it's also an indication if you get a lot of pushback, that your opinion just isn't a popular one. Trust me, I know haha.

 

Combining datasheets, as I and others suggested, is just an easy win to help clean up a decent chunk of the "bloat" without flat out eliminating or Legending units. There are also offenders that could be easily combined in both Primaris and Firstborn. It's really not a one-sided issue.

 

I will devil's advocate till the cows come home for Firstborn, because they are so often discarded as wasted space by the the modern space marine player base. But I'm looking for solutions that satisfy everyone to some extent. Combining datasheets of like minded units is just a very simple and elegant way to do this across the board. Rule of 3 be damned.

I don't think firstborn are discarded by new players, its more that the boxsets with discounts are primaris. People tend to only by the stuff they can get a deal on or the best stuff.

 

I mean jump captains have been the best marine hq, Devastators have been really strong in both 8th & 9th, same for vanguard vets. In 9th attack bikes are strong, and I'm sure those units are selling. Who knows what the future holds on this stuff.

While I think you have a valid point, I wouldn't say this accounts for most people. If it was a purely monetary endeavor, then the fact that GW chose buff older FB kits, that are easy to find on discount sites, would speak to the contrary.

 

The majority opinion is that Primaris better represents people's images of marines. Whether it's the scale, simplicity design, the tacticool (phobos) or just the lore advancement. Most people just want primaris marines and would pay more for them I believe.

[Mike8404]

@Mike8404 I appreciate the good faith debate and the admittance when one is wrong.

 

Now that you detail out the greater point, I do agree. It's a legit concern we all face. Particularly more so, us players who are still invested in hobbying and gaming with FB marines.

 

One thing I strongly disagree with is that So far, I have appreciated that almost none of the Primaris are a 1:1 comparison. Except characters and maybe Outriders. That nuance allows FB to still have play and show their utility and versatility in the face of the Primaris 1 trick pony doctrine.

 

There has to be a solution that everyone can have their marines playable. Oh wait there is. It's what we have now. But we get nothing but complaints about "bloat" now.

 

My question to all, is the "bloat" really that bad? If we cleaned up and combined datasheets (NOT LEGENDS/RETIRED/DISCONTINUED) , would that help?

 

I wish more people with a hybrid approach to FB and Primaris would help mediate this conversation. There is a lot of hyperbole and overreacting in this thread. Who knows, maybe I'm partially at fault here.

 

Edit: wording

I think a lot of Hyperbole is having discussions like this can be hard over threads and social media, even if we all agree for the most part.

 

I play a hybrid force because playing pure Primaris or Pure FB can be too limiting right now and I think that's where a lot of the issues arise. GW could give all non-Primaris LSM an update to loadout, give units the "Primaris" keyword, combine the units that have an abundance of data sheets, and the problem Would be fixed overnight.

 

But for some reason, they won't

Mike, just stop. You have already derailed this thread into getting locked once. At this point, everyone is aware that you do not like anything that is not a new Primaris model. We get it.

 

Bikes (which are still being sold) are absolutely still taken, because Outriders are bad for their points cost. Multimelta Attack Bikes are taken as well over their ATV counterparts. This can be verified in minutes by looking up lists on any website that aggregates then.

Take a chill pill, there's no issues here, don't bring problems where there are none Edited May 31, 2022 by Mike8404

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

Man, the flak do get thick when you're over the target.

I mean it's also an indication if you get a lot of pushback, that your opinion just isn't a popular one. Trust me, I know haha.

 

Combining datasheets, as I and others suggested, is just an easy win to help clean up a decent chunk of the "bloat" without flat out eliminating or Legending units. There are also offenders that could be easily combined in both Primaris and Firstborn. It's really not a one-sided issue.

 

I will devil's advocate till the cows come home for Firstborn, because they are so often discarded as wasted space by the the modern space marine player base. But I'm looking for solutions that satisfy everyone to some extent. Combining datasheets of like minded units is just a very simple and elegant way to do this across the board. Rule of 3 be damned.

I don't think firstborn are discarded by new players, its more that the boxsets with discounts are primaris. People tend to only by the stuff they can get a deal on or the best stuff.

 

I mean jump captains have been the best marine hq, Devastators have been really strong in both 8th & 9th, same for vanguard vets. In 9th attack bikes are strong, and I'm sure those units are selling. Who knows what the future holds on this stuff.

I think part of it is what I think of as stage presence as well as the box sets. My area is pretty casual and pretty thin on marine players compared to some past areas I have been. Of the players who have started since primaris came out all of them have primaris and most are near exclusively primaris. Of the two Dark Angel players one is exclusively greenwing using all primaris. Redemptors abound because they are in every box set. When Indomitus came our every marine player got at least one half. When rounding our armies most players gravitate towards some primaris specialists before firstborn options but staple firstborn options do have some presence, such as devestators and SW or DA unique units. In thus primaris oriented environment the HH box has some popularity. That many marines for that price is hard to pass up and the weapon boxes make it easy to tune them.

[Captain Idaho]

This topic, as detailed in the OP, is about the workings of the army and a new Codex regarding rules. Whilst there can be cross over to the idea of discontinued rules and thus models, things have gotten away from the original intent of the topic.

 

Reasons for Primaris being preferred by new players over Firstborn, economic or shelf space, don't factor into this topic so we should drop that aspect there.

 

So bringing us back on topic, I absolutely do have some hopes and dreams for the next Codex:

 

• Relic Terminators getting the Chaos Marine updated Reaper Autocannon (rumoured -2AP).

 

• Lascannons going to a more dependable D3+3 damage.

 

• Land Raiders and Repulsors getting an Assault Vehicle rule that enables models to disembark after moving and still charge.

 

• Predators should be hunger killers of the army as the fluff indicates - a +1 to wound if attacking a vehicle or monster with the turret weapon.

 

• Big one for me... Sternguard with bolters get either a Strategum or a native +1 to wound infantry.

 

• Yes, consolidation of needless additional Datasheets. Predators, Land Speeders, Storm Speeders, Phobos armoured Marines, Gravis Armoured Marines, all those HQ choices... Primaris or Firstborn it's all the same to me!

Edited May 31, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This topic, as detailed in the OP, is about the workings of the army and a new Codex regarding rules. Whilst there can be cross over to the idea of discontinued rules and thus models, things have gotten away from the original intent of the topic.

 

Reasons for Primaris being preferred by new players over Firstborn, economic or shelf space, don't factor into this topic so we should drop that aspect there.

 

So bringing us back on topic, I absolutely do have some hopes and dreams for the next Codex:

 

• Relic Terminators getting the Chaos Marine updated Reaper Autocannon (rumoured -2AP).

 

• Lascannons going to a more dependable D3+3 damage.

 

• Land Raiders and Repulsors getting an Assault Vehicle rule that enables models to disembark after moving and still charge.

 

• Predators should be hunger killers of the army as the fluff indicates - a +1 to wound if attacking a vehicle or monster with the turret weapon.

 

• Big one for me... Sternguard with bolters get either a Strategum or a native +1 to wound infantry.

 

• Yes, consolidation of needless additional Datasheets. Predators, Land Speeders, Storm Speeders, Phobos armoured Marines, Gravis Armoured Marines, all those HQ choices... Primaris or Firstborn it's all the same to me!

I don’t think it makes sense to try to put all gravis units into a single datasheet since they cover like 3 FoC slots, and do very different roles…

[Orange Knight]

The various Gravis units are actually very different, the only thing they have in common is the armour and they shouldn't be pulled into a single datasheet.

 

That's like suggesting that Tactical Marines, Devastators and Vanguard Veterans should just be one unit.

 

I also don't think Reivers should be pulled into the other Phobos troops. The unit is different enough, it just doesn't function well or carry enough impact because it's so underpowered.

 

I have a feeling that Reivers might become an auto include in the next Codex. We've seen it happen with struggling units in other factions in their most recent updates.

[Blindhamster]

Imo, gravis units shouldn’t be merged, each one is distinct, from different slots and has different roles

 

I also do not believe reivers should get merged, keep them as elites, update their base profile to veteran stats, give them special issue bolt carbines with D2 and give them an upgraded melee weapon - that way they are the elites choice phobos unit. I’d have no issue merging infiltrators and incursors, make it so the rifles are two distinct options and make the paired blades just an upgrade the entire squad can take. Open all the specialist options from the set to them.

 

Veteran intercessors, as a mentioned in the other thread, should be as they are now but always come with HBP, chainsword and bolt rifle, they should all be able to take upgraded melee weapons and the unit should be allowed grenade launchers and perhaps a heavy weapon or some kind, the unit should also be able to use both of the intercessors stratagems. They’d feel pretty elite that way

[UnkyHamHam]

Imo, gravis units shouldn’t be merged, each one is distinct, from different slots and has different roles

 

I also do not believe reivers should get merged, keep them as elites, update their base profile to veteran stats, give them special issue bolt carbines with D2 and give them an upgraded melee weapon - that way they are the elites choice phobos unit. I’d have no issue merging infiltrators and incursors, make it so the rifles are two distinct options and make the paired blades just an upgrade the entire squad can take. Open all the specialist options from the set to them.

 

Veteran intercessors, as a mentioned in the other thread, should be as they are now but always come with HBP, chainsword and bolt rifle, they should all be able to take upgraded melee weapons and the unit should be allowed grenade launchers and perhaps a heavy weapon or some kind, the unit should also be able to use both of the intercessors stratagems. They’d feel pretty elite that way

Something I have been thinking about for a while on Veteran Intercessors (and Sternguard as well) is giving them a once per game strat that allows the whole squad to shoot the unique Bolter round of your supplement.

 

I think it's perfect for Sternguard, but could be cool for Vet Intercessors as well. I'm not sure if this is broken as I don't remember what each round does from each supplement. I know that Ultras Hellfire bolt just causes a mortal wound. So, that is potentially one volley of 10 MWs per game.

[phandaal]

On a different track - "super doctrine" sets for non-successor chapters. i.e., a chapter straight out of the basic codex. Something for people to pick from when creating a chapter without a known progenitor.

 

Give people a few to pick from: one for speedy chapters, one for close combat chapters, one for shooty chapters. Combo that with the generic chapter traits and people could have a lot more options to create something different.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It seems like all or most can agree, combining redundant datasheets, and trimming the fat on stratagems is a fairly universal desire.

 

If GW isn’t going to legends FB, then I hope they make separate books.

As someone who still uses roughly 30-50% of a list being FB still

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Then we have to buy two books - twice the cost.

[phandaal]

Then we have to buy two books - twice the cost.

 

It is not going to happen.

 

People are just hellbent on turning this into an argument over different flavors of Space Marine.