Ideas and Hopes for the next Codex

[UnkyHamHam]

Then we have to buy two books - twice the cost.

I'd buy 2 books if each were half the cost. Or even 60%-70% of the cost.

 

Or what if 2 separate books came in a shared sleeve or something. GW have done this before multiple times with core rulebooks and chapter approved.

 

Imagine 3 books. 1 fluff, 1 FB units and shared wargear, and 1 Primaris and shared wargear.

[Orange Knight]

The biggest advantage of separating the ranges is that they could fit all of the generic AND chapter specific Primaris units and rules into one book. The only hit would be to the volume of lore associated with each chapter that comes with the codex.

 

This would mean no more supplements that are trickled out throughout the duration of an edition. Look at the current situation - Dark Angels have strong rules written for 9th edition, and Imperial Fists have weak rules from 8th.

 

Of course they aren't in a position to do that until some additional units are released that complete the full range of capabilities that the army is currently lacking. Also, a few chapters will need additional, thematic releases:

 

-Dark Angels will need a Veteran Gravis unit that can be equipped in a similar fashion to the Deathwing Terminators/Knights that has access to teleportation.

 

-Blood Angels will need a Jump Pack unit that is comparable to the current Sanguinary Guard, that could also be built as a Death Company alternative.

 

-Various chapters need additional Primaris characters and upgrade sprue, perhaps something for White Scars that allows an Outrider to be upgraded to an Outrider Captain.

 

 

And of course, alongside such a codex they could release a lore compendium. Something like an illustrated encyclopedia that dives into the details of the chapters, their heroes, wargear and histories.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Dark Angels don't use Gravis armor for Deathwing, but Bladeguard Armor. So they need a unique veteran Bladeguard unit, a separate set of Bladeguard command squad units, and more importantly still need some sort of line unit to get obsec in a Deathwing Vanguard detachment.

 

Similar is needed for Ravenwing, further bike command squad, a bike veteran unit, MPK for outriders that can take more than three per squad.

 

So just for that one, they have a long way to go to make reasonably functional Ravenwing/Deathwing detachments.

 

...

 

That said, I'm not certain how tenable maintaining 11 supplements or whatever is now, so it'd be nice to see some sort of compendium for them at some point. I just don't think that many books works with how slowly they're rolling out books these days.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Then we have to buy two books - twice the cost.

it is what it is.

People who want FB only can have FB only, and people who want primaris only can have that book, and GW can milk people who want both.

[Orange Knight]

Well, we all have to buy two books currently as things stand because of the supplement system.

 

I would prefer a dedicated Primaris codex that includes all the chapters and their units. Lean and Mean, with a reduced stratagem, rule and unit bloat.

 

But I also understand that the range isn't at a point where such a thing could happen, and also understand that some people are still attached to the older models.

 

This is something that can be re-evaluated after the next wave or two of Primaris releases.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dark Angels don't use Gravis armor for Deathwing, but Bladeguard Armor. So they need a unique veteran Bladeguard unit, a separate set of Bladeguard command squad units, and more importantly still need some sort of line unit to get obsec in a Deathwing Vanguard detachment.

 

Similar is needed for Ravenwing, further bike command squad, a bike veteran unit, MPK for outriders that can take more than three per squad.

 

So just for that one, they have a long way to go to make reasonably functional Ravenwing/Deathwing detachments.

 

...

 

That said, I'm not certain how tenable maintaining 11 supplements or whatever is now, so it'd be nice to see some sort of compendium for them at some point. I just don't think that many books works with how slowly they're rolling out books these days.

11 supplements is 100% unnecessary.

Chapters that are codex compliant do not need their own book.

I’m sorry but it’s true. Just played WS, and they’re a codex compliant chapter that has no unique non-character units, to justify a whole book.

 

10th/9.5 codex whatever is next, should have a section of datasheets, labeled ‘heroes of the space marines’ or something that then has datasheets for chapter specific special characters

[DesuVult]

Transports need Horus Heresy transport sizes.

[Medjugorje]

 

I think this would be a bad idea to change the datasheets.

There are definitely some that can be consolidated though. Phobos is always the obvious one, and we have more Lieutenant datasheets than some factions have in their entire HQ section.

 

At first I thought it depends what datasheet. The lieutenants could be all one datasheet but with several options but  this does not matter. 

So its not necessary to have the bloat in form of datasheets or in form of the page where you can decide which weapon etc... 

 

In a datasheet its more easier to make some point adjustments and the weapon gear.

And by Reiver - they are Elite instaed of a troop choice which is important too.

 

The main problem I see is that Space Marines are so popular and GW want to sell models and so they produce too much new things instead of replace some units. In case I have a HUGE firstborn army and i would not have any problem to see Firstborn and Primaris get the same datasheets but other people would have. So the codex bloat is a much more better compromise then any other decision.

 

What GW really could do is to make the codex structure more easy. At first all special rules, then Datasheets, then WL-Traits, Psychic Powers, Lithanies, Relics and after that the Stratagems and points. Mybe with special colors which is equal in each codex (WL- blue, stratagems green etc)

The other thing is to reduce the amount of supplements. I think there are many chapters which does not need a codex. 

BT, BA, DA, SW, DW for sure but all other compiant chapter does not need their own book. Especially the Ultramrines because they are THE most normal chapter out there.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Medjugorje]

Transports need Horus Heresy transport sizes.

This is the discussion what I expect from this threat. 

 

I think so too. We need 10 man for Impulsors and 10 for the Executioner + 15 or 20 for a normal Repulsor

[WrathOfTheLion]

Increased transport capacity is the right way to go, think it's entirely reasonable that things like drop pods/rhinos/Land Raiders/Repulsors/etc. have some extra slots for characters to go into.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This discussion has really spun out of control now. Three books…… really ??!

[Medjugorje]

This discussion has really spun out of control now. Three books…… really ??!

I started a new thread. But I know your answer is just here to annoy me.

[Jacques Corbin]

A lore encyclopedia would be amazing! If they annotated the articles with references to various black library novels, they would sell more books.

 

I mostly agree on stratagems. The wargear stratagems are junk. Why do the Incursors pay points for a Haywire mine, but melta bombs and assault launchers are stratagems?! It makes no sense! There was a video up about warning an opponent about Auspex Scan when they deep strike. They can deep strike several units, but you can only use Auspex Scan once?! C'mon! Same with smoke launchers! Give us a break! Just keep the Epic Deeds and Strategic Ploy strats, with common sense changes.

 

Also, characters. The Bladeguard Captain and Lieutenant each got rolled into Primaris Captain or Primaris Lieutenant, but the Gravis Captain gets 2 dataslates?! Why not 1 dataslate? We have a Lieutenant for just about every occasion, but I want to see them in boxes of 2 instead of individuals. Like the Reiver Lieutenant needs the grav chute or grapnel options like actual reivers. The Phobos Lieutenant needs Concealed positions, and give him the carbine option of either Incursors or Infiltrators. We need a Chaplain with a jump pack, and a Chaplain in Gravis. A Gravis Librarian would be nice too.

 

Yes, there are some gaping holes in the Primaris range. Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans have not been replaced. I have a theory that someone at GW pointed out that every unit the has a jump pack means they do not need a transport, which means less transports sold. That's why the White Scars didn't get Khan on a bike, it sells Impulsors. Speaking of transports, I want a Storm Speeder transport for my Phobos marines. I would buy 4.

 

Then there are the weapons. Cawl seems to think that all Astartes needs are Bolters, Plasma, Flame, Melta, and Stubbers for shooting. Bolters, YES, all day, everyday! The Onslaught cannons are great, but why are there heavy stubbers on our vehicles?! Are shoulder fired missile launchers not a thing anymore? What about Grav and Las weapons? Grav weapons used to be the go to for killing (Heretic) Astartes, wounding on your armor save, and having high AP and damage, but what now? The Lascannons were the best example of one Astartes using a heavy weapon that is usually crew served or vehicle mounted, because Astartes are quite literally larger than life. But now, Bolt Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, and you have to be in Gravis to use a Heavy Bolter or a Multimelta.

 

Also, the melee weapons. Swords, Fists, Hammers, and Chainsword. So, axes are only a thing for the Black Templars and the Space Wolves? I thought Iron Hands were fond of axes too. Are lightning claws a thing of the past? I hope not, or Shrike will be really out of place if/when FB are phased out.

[DesuVult]

A lore encyclopedia would be amazing! If they annotated the articles with references to various black library novels, they would sell more books.

 

I mostly agree on stratagems. The wargear stratagems are junk. Why do the Incursors pay points for a Haywire mine, but melta bombs and assault launchers are stratagems?! It makes no sense! There was a video up about warning an opponent about Auspex Scan when they deep strike. They can deep strike several units, but you can only use Auspex Scan once?! C'mon! Same with smoke launchers! Give us a break! Just keep the Epic Deeds and Strategic Ploy strats, with common sense changes.

 

Also, characters. The Bladeguard Captain and Lieutenant each got rolled into Primaris Captain or Primaris Lieutenant, but the Gravis Captain gets 2 dataslates?! Why not 1 dataslate? We have a Lieutenant for just about every occasion, but I want to see them in boxes of 2 instead of individuals. Like the Reiver Lieutenant needs the grav chute or grapnel options like actual reivers. The Phobos Lieutenant needs Concealed positions, and give him the carbine option of either Incursors or Infiltrators. We need a Chaplain with a jump pack, and a Chaplain in Gravis. A Gravis Librarian would be nice too.

 

Yes, there are some gaping holes in the Primaris range. Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans have not been replaced. I have a theory that someone at GW pointed out that every unit the has a jump pack means they do not need a transport, which means less transports sold. That's why the White Scars didn't get Khan on a bike, it sells Impulsors. Speaking of transports, I want a Storm Speeder transport for my Phobos marines. I would buy 4.

 

Then there are the weapons. Cawl seems to think that all Astartes needs are Bolters, Plasma, Flame, Melta, and Stubbers for shooting. Bolters, YES, all day, everyday! The Onslaught cannons are great, but why are there heavy stubbers on our vehicles?! Are shoulder fired missile launchers not a thing anymore? What about Grav and Las weapons? Grav weapons used to be the go to for killing (Heretic) Astartes, wounding on your armor save, and having high AP and damage, but what now? The Lascannons were the best example of one Astartes using a heavy weapon that is usually crew served or vehicle mounted, because Astartes are quite literally larger than life. But now, Bolt Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, and you have to be in Gravis to use a Heavy Bolter or a Multimelta.

 

Also, the melee weapons. Swords, Fists, Hammers, and Chainsword. So, axes are only a thing for the Black Templars and the Space Wolves? I thought Iron Hands were fond of axes too. Are lightning claws a thing of the past? I hope not, or Shrike will be really out of place if/when FB are phased out.

GW seems to be separating LSM ans CSM along melee weapon aesthetic. CSM are getting pushed towards mauls and axes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A lore encyclopedia would be amazing! If they annotated the articles with references to various black library novels, they would sell more books.

 

I mostly agree on stratagems. The wargear stratagems are junk. Why do the Incursors pay points for a Haywire mine, but melta bombs and assault launchers are stratagems?! It makes no sense! There was a video up about warning an opponent about Auspex Scan when they deep strike. They can deep strike several units, but you can only use Auspex Scan once?! C'mon! Same with smoke launchers! Give us a break! Just keep the Epic Deeds and Strategic Ploy strats, with common sense changes.

 

Also, characters. The Bladeguard Captain and Lieutenant each got rolled into Primaris Captain or Primaris Lieutenant, but the Gravis Captain gets 2 dataslates?! Why not 1 dataslate? We have a Lieutenant for just about every occasion, but I want to see them in boxes of 2 instead of individuals. Like the Reiver Lieutenant needs the grav chute or grapnel options like actual reivers. The Phobos Lieutenant needs Concealed positions, and give him the carbine option of either Incursors or Infiltrators. We need a Chaplain with a jump pack, and a Chaplain in Gravis. A Gravis Librarian would be nice too.

 

Yes, there are some gaping holes in the Primaris range. Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans have not been replaced. I have a theory that someone at GW pointed out that every unit the has a jump pack means they do not need a transport, which means less transports sold. That's why the White Scars didn't get Khan on a bike, it sells Impulsors. Speaking of transports, I want a Storm Speeder transport for my Phobos marines. I would buy 4.

 

Then there are the weapons. Cawl seems to think that all Astartes needs are Bolters, Plasma, Flame, Melta, and Stubbers for shooting. Bolters, YES, all day, everyday! The Onslaught cannons are great, but why are there heavy stubbers on our vehicles?! Are shoulder fired missile launchers not a thing anymore? What about Grav and Las weapons? Grav weapons used to be the go to for killing (Heretic) Astartes, wounding on your armor save, and having high AP and damage, but what now? The Lascannons were the best example of one Astartes using a heavy weapon that is usually crew served or vehicle mounted, because Astartes are quite literally larger than life. But now, Bolt Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, and you have to be in Gravis to use a Heavy Bolter or a Multimelta.

 

Also, the melee weapons. Swords, Fists, Hammers, and Chainsword. So, axes are only a thing for the Black Templars and the Space Wolves? I thought Iron Hands were fond of axes too. Are lightning claws a thing of the past? I hope not, or Shrike will be really out of place if/when FB are phased out.

in regards to las weapons, didn’t cawl make the las talon and the las sniper rifles primaris snipers use?

And stubbers just look cooler than storm bolters that’s why.

And as for melee weapons I’d like power weapons (and force weapons) to all be under that single generic title with the same stats tbh.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, heavy stubbers are essentially M2 Browning .50 Cal Machine Guns. For a mortal human (5'10 tall, about 200 pounds), they are heavy, crew served weapons weapons, or mounted on vehicles. Now, a Primaris Astartes is like 8' tall and 400 pounds, and it would be smaller than their bolt rifle. Being Heavy 4, and stats mirroring FB boltguns and Primaris Carbines, it's like a vehicle mounted M249, where the marines are armed with M4 rifles. 2 Heavy Stubbers on the Invictor makes sense, because it is ambush and horde sweeping. I would rather see one of the Heavy Bolter variants from the Heavy Intercessors kit pintle mounted. Again, it is the issue of scale I mentioned above. A Primaris Astartes should weild a heavy weapon solo, that would otherwise be crew served or hull or sponson mounted on a vehicle. A heavy stubber feels puny and inadequate for Primaris Astartes. They go well with Guard, Ad Mech, and Sisters, because it's the right scale for a S3/T3 mortal human.

[Blindhamster]

I like the heavy stubbers, I just assume they’d be primarily used for tracer rounds, would be cool if they had a rule to that effect - hit with the stubble and the turret gets +1 to hit

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Ok, heavy stubbers are essentially M2 Browning .50 Cal Machine Guns. For a mortal human (5'10 tall, about 200 pounds), they are heavy, crew served weapons weapons, or mounted on vehicles. Now, a Primaris Astartes is like 8' tall and 400 pounds, and it would be smaller than their bolt rifle. Being Heavy 4, and stats mirroring FB boltguns and Primaris Carbines, it's like a vehicle mounted M249, where the marines are armed with M4 rifles. 2 Heavy Stubbers on the Invictor makes sense, because it is ambush and horde sweeping. I would rather see one of the Heavy Bolter variants from the Heavy Intercessors kit pintle mounted. Again, it is the issue of scale I mentioned above. A Primaris Astartes should weild a heavy weapon solo, that would otherwise be crew served or hull or sponson mounted on a vehicle. A heavy stubber feels puny and inadequate for Primaris Astartes. They go well with Guard, Ad Mech, and Sisters, because it's the right scale for a S3/T3 mortal human.

the primaris have bigger stubbers.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I like the heavy stubbers, I just assume they’d be primarily used for tracer rounds, would be cool if they had a rule to that effect - hit with the stubble and the turret gets +1 to hit

Could be interesting for a coaxial gun to work like that.

[Captain Idaho]

True, Gravis Aggressors and Eradicators bring too much power to Troops. Perhaps I was being too generous there.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

Man, the flak do get thick when you're over the target.

I mean it's also an indication if you get a lot of pushback, that your opinion just isn't a popular one. Trust me, I know haha.

 

Combining datasheets, as I and others suggested, is just an easy win to help clean up a decent chunk of the "bloat" without flat out eliminating or Legending units. There are also offenders that could be easily combined in both Primaris and Firstborn. It's really not a one-sided issue.

 

I will devil's advocate till the cows come home for Firstborn, because they are so often discarded as wasted space by the the modern space marine player base. But I'm looking for solutions that satisfy everyone to some extent. Combining datasheets of like minded units is just a very simple and elegant way to do this across the board. Rule of 3 be damned.

I don't think firstborn are discarded by new players, its more that the boxsets with discounts are primaris. People tend to only by the stuff they can get a deal on or the best stuff.

 

I mean jump captains have been the best marine hq, Devastators have been really strong in both 8th & 9th, same for vanguard vets. In 9th attack bikes are strong, and I'm sure those units are selling. Who knows what the future holds on this stuff.

While I think you have a valid point, I wouldn't say this accounts for most people. If it was a purely monetary endeavor, then the fact that GW chose buff older FB kits, that are easy to find on discount sites, would speak to the contrary.

 

The majority opinion is that Primaris better represents people's images of marines. Whether it's the scale, simplicity design, the tacticool (phobos) or just the lore advancement. Most people just want primaris marines and would pay more for them I believe.

 

 

I think a lot of players are motived by the competitive scene; I think that's why GW has become so much more invested in it. We don't really have figures so its just our experiences an opinions I just think the demise of firstborn is overblown (it wouldn't surprise me if they do better than some of GW other ranges). 

[War of the Eagle]

I know im an odd ball but for Emperors sake fix the firestrike servo turret! Give it 8w and drop the points buy like 30.

 

Remove the Repulsor Ex transport capacity and up the main guns lethality.

 

Give the Invictor the -1 damage. Not being core is harsh enough.

 

Drop the points on both versions of centurions. They got triple nerfed into the ground.

 

Make reaivers and Vet intercessors useful.

[Jacques Corbin]

I know im an odd ball but for Emperors sake fix the firestrike servo turret! Give it 8w and drop the points buy like 30.

 

Remove the Repulsor Ex transport capacity and up the main guns lethality.

 

Give the Invictor the -1 damage. Not being core is harsh enough.

 

Drop the points on both versions of centurions. They got triple nerfed into the ground.

 

Make reaivers and Vet intercessors useful.

Well, maybe not -1 damage, but make the antenna do something useful. Maybe give it a comms uplink rule, and let it allow units with indirect fire to use its line of sight instead of their own. But, then again, I REALLY want a Whirlwind Launcher on an Impulsor chassis.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I know im an odd ball but for Emperors sake fix the firestrike servo turret! Give it 8w and drop the points buy like 30.

 

Remove the Repulsor Ex transport capacity and up the main guns lethality.

 

Give the Invictor the -1 damage. Not being core is harsh enough.

 

Drop the points on both versions of centurions. They got triple nerfed into the ground.

 

Make reaivers and Vet intercessors useful.

Well, maybe not -1 damage, but make the antenna do something useful. Maybe give it a comms uplink rule, and let it allow units with indirect fire to use its line of sight instead of their own. But, then again, I REALLY want a Whirlwind Launcher on an Impulsor chassis.

ummm…since when does an indirect fire unit need to use LoS at all? That’s kinda the whole point of indirect fire…

[Urkh]

To get around the recent nerfs to indirect fire.