HH 2.0 Brotherhood of the Phoenix: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Emperor's Children in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[Brother Kraskor]

So while Fulgrim is missing from the leaks I'd say that means there's still hope for Rylanor and Sunkillers, but it does seem unlikely we'll see either. 

 

Phoenix weapons have been effectively neutered by the loss of the AP1 stance from the phase 1 leaks. However I think the new Stances do represent a few tactical options at least so it's not terrible.

 

Palatines can take power weapons however. So I am thinking they might be a good unit for power axes, charging out of an assault vehicle, to make the most of striking ahead of Initiative 1. 

 

If Loyalists take Martyrs of Isstvan WL trait, against Traitors they can hit on 2s even against WS5 (with -1A), or still hit on 3s against WS4 while taking the +1A.

 

Traitors of course can take the Surgical upgrades (although the Palatine unit entry doesn't actually forbid Loyalists from doing so too...!), making them be hit on 6s against WS4 provided no Fearless. 

 

Edit: PDF units apparently will get PDF, so hope for Sunkillers, but not Rylanor. I hope Sunkillers will get a points discount for swapping out their Lascannon for cheaper weapons.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[Rodiger]

I've never played a Horus Heresy game, however I did play a lot of 7th edition 40k so I am not unfamiliar with the rules set. Anyway I was thinking of picking up the new box set and making an Emperor's Children army out of it, from looking at the special rules on the Warhammer Community article though, the rules seem to be close combat orientated, but the new box set has 40 marines with bolters in it. So is this box actually of any use for an Emperor's Children army?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/11/legions-of-the-horus-heresy-no-ones-perfect-except-the-emperors-children/

[Brother Kraskor]

I've never played a Horus Heresy game, however I did play a lot of 7th edition 40k so I am not unfamiliar with the rules set. Anyway I was thinking of picking up the new box set and making an Emperor's Children army out of it, from looking at the special rules on the Warhammer Community article though, the rules seem to be close combat orientated, but the new box set has 40 marines with bolters in it. So is this box actually of any use for an Emperor's Children army?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/11/legions-of-the-horus-heresy-no-ones-perfect-except-the-emperors-children/

 

I am a Heresy novice so veterans will be able to advise further, but I'd say the majority of HH armies will benefit from having some Tactical marines to hold objectives. Even if you build 20 from the box like this, you then have 20 spare to tool up with the new Special and Heavy weapon kits. Or even buy some combat arms and convert a unit into Palatine Blades for example. 

[RoadRunna]

***cough*** where did the Jump Packs go for the Palatine Blade squad?  WFT?

[Brother Kraskor]

***cough*** where did the Jump Packs go for the Palatine Blade squad?  WFT?

 

Yeah agreed! Annoying. And the removal of AP1 from the phase 1 leaks, together they just become a unit without a cause to me!

[Brother Kraskor]

A few bits and pieces I've picked up, haven't had a game yet but keen to try some stuff out.

 

• Lucius has Preferred Enemy (IC). This applies to his unit, and also to any enemy unit an IC is attached to. So he becomes a great tool for buffing units taking on enemy Warlords. A particularly cynical general might put him with a unit of Lascannon heavies at the start of the game - they now re-roll 1s to hit and wound on that enemy deathstar (which, unless it's T5, you will instant death). Why not do this for a couple of turns while they approach, then have him hop out and close in!
• I originally thought Phoenix Guard weren't great. But if you can pick non-Fearless targets and attach a strong duellist to them (eg. Lucius), they don't have to kill much, just soak up damage (and everything will hit them on 5s or 6s for first round of combat with Perfect Guard & sonic shriker), and let the duellist overkill the enemy character, then sweeping advance. Palatines could also do this but I think the lack of Invul really hurts here.
• Kakophoni will Gets Hot themselves to death pretty quick. This could also be a good candidate for Lucius, they are certainly crying out for an apothecary. 
• The subsonic pulser is a trap and a waste of points, augury scanner is far handier and free intercept.
• If you wanted to be very gamey, you could take Maru Skara and put nothing in reserve - free +1Movement for the whole game...! 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[Stofficus]

I got my first game in today, and as Brother Kraskor indicated above, by fluke, the whole Phoenix Guard + duelist character does actually work. 

I had just a champion and a single phoenix guard left against an 8 man terminator squad with lightning claws and a praetor - Champion killed off the praetor relatively easily with Murderous Strike, and the single Guard with Shreikers forced the enemy terminators to only hit on 6s - so they failed to do any damage. Win combat by a bunch, sweep, celebrate with champagne. 

Offensively they don't feel great, really reliant on fishing for 6s to wound, but the ability to soak up damned near anything with a +1 to combat resolution is quite handy against other tough or elite units. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Yeah I'm thinking this with Lucius out a Land Raider will be a nasty combo. Can even make them Line with the Retinue upgrade for 15pts.

[Brother Kraskor]

Probably not a terribly astute observation, but I was thinking earlier about the brutal combination of Lucius and Fulgrim. You declare the challenge with Fulgrim and he will pretty much annihilate anything anyway - but suddenly he has Preferred Enemy (IC) thanks to Lucius, so he re-rolls 1s to hit and wound. Given he is likely hitting on 3s (master-crafted too!) and wounds on 2s thanks to Fleshbane, that is a lot of AP2 wounds coming in with those re-rolls.

Meanwhile Lucius is happily picking out the enemy Sergeant with Precision Strike (3+) to make sure the enemy is losing that Leadership buff. Fulgrim likely overkills his target, Lucius takes out their Sergeant (and their Vexilla too, why not!), you are +2 to combat res anyway thanks to Fulgrim and Vexilla/Living Icons. And with Crusader and Fulgrim's sky-high Initiative, you absolutely will Sweeping Advance. Just 5 Phoenix guard would be a perfectly sufficient bodyguard, though they will become a shooting magnet. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[The Scorpion]

What is your opinion on the new Maru Skara, what would you outflank?

 

I was thinking of a list with two blocs of mass infantry (tactical or assault), and two Land Raiders with elite units (one with Phoenix, the other with Palatines), plus... other stuff as needed.

 

If the enemy has lots of templates, the marine horde is put in reserve and the raiders race ahead tanking fire.

If there is a lot of big lasers, then the infantry races and the raiders outflank.

 

Is this viable, or is it too smol brain?

[Brother Kraskor]

Sounds viable to me in either configuration! I think Outflank is best with fast units though as they can move on their full Movement and then Assault. Outflanking jump pack infantry, or Javelins sneaking behind enemy rear armour. I have been going back and forth over Maru Skara a lot.

[The Scorpion]

Do javelins need to outflank though? Don't they come already with Deep Strike? Or is that the Proteus Speeder?

[Brother Kraskor]

They already come with Outflank but it is a good place for them, especially when you can guarantee which turn. They are not particularly tough and prefer enemy rear armour, good Outflank candidate.

[Valkyrion]

Because they strike first, are EC better off equipping bayonet or chainbayonet tactical squads, rather than either chainword tacticals or despoilers? 
Striking first with basically +1 to wound would be better than striking at the same time with an extra attack? 

[SmorcInc]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:46 AM, Valkyrion said:

Because they strike first, are EC better off equipping bayonet or chainbayonet tactical squads, rather than either chainword tacticals or despoilers? 
Striking first with basically +1 to wound would be better than striking at the same time with an extra attack? 

Well if you take the swords you'll strike first with the extra attack, usually chainswords will slightly out do bayonets but for the price I believe chain bayos are the way.

[sarovian]

So I'm thinking Kakophani:

- Are they worth their points? They seem like the best bits of rotor cannon + volkite culverin support squads, for a few tens of points more, although an apothecary is basically an auto-take with them too.

- Are their power armoured bodies worth taking in the one HS slot you get with PotL? I could stick a tooled up Predator in there for less. 

 

[SmorcInc]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:17 AM, sarovian said:

So I'm thinking Kakophani:

- Are they worth their points? They seem like the best bits of rotor cannon + volkite culverin support squads, for a few tens of points more, although an apothecary is basically an auto-take with them too.

- Are their power armoured bodies worth taking in the one HS slot you get with PotL? I could stick a tooled up Predator in there for less. 

 

That depends on if you want highly flexible anti infantry shooting (solid against basically all targets) or the heavier platform from a predator. Predator will typically be easier to kill and the kakaphoni can reaction fire at anything trying to hurt them while the predator can't. They're just slower and as you said more expensive.

[Marshal Loss]

Kakophoni are firmly a "style over substance" choice in this edition, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't consider them a good use of a HS slot if you're limited to one.

[Brother Kraskor]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:46 AM, Valkyrion said:

Because they strike first, are EC better off equipping bayonet or chainbayonet tactical squads, rather than either chainword tacticals or despoilers? 
Striking first with basically +1 to wound would be better than striking at the same time with an extra attack? 

That's not an either/or, I think you are getting confused. We only strike at one higher initiative step if we charge, but then weapon choice won't change whether that rule comes into effect. 

On 7/19/2022 at 2:17 PM, sarovian said:

So I'm thinking Kakophani:

- Are they worth their points? They seem like the best bits of rotor cannon + volkite culverin support squads, for a few tens of points more, although an apothecary is basically an auto-take with them too.

- Are their power armoured bodies worth taking in the one HS slot you get with PotL? I could stick a tooled up Predator in there for less. 

 

I think they could be very cheeky with Lucius, targetting enemy infantry containing Independent Characters. They will re-roll 1s to hit (mostly avoiding Gets Hot), and 1s to wound (so against T4 almost everything will wound). Could force a lot of saves with Deflagrate. 

[Marshal Loss]

44 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

I think they could be very cheeky with Lucius, targetting enemy infantry containing Independent Characters. They will re-roll 1s to hit (mostly avoiding Gets Hot), and 1s to wound (so against T4 almost everything will wound). Could force a lot of saves with Deflagrate. 

I admire the lateral thinking, but that's a waste of Lucius' potential and a colossal investment for very little gain. Not worth it.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Marshal Loss

[Brother Kraskor]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:01 AM, Marshal Loss said:

I admire the lateral thinking, but that's a waste of Lucius' potential and a colossal investment for very little gain. Not worth it.

Have him advance with the Kakophoni for a turn or two, then once you are ready to get into CC he leaves that unit and joins a combat unit to take some heads. Instead of having no impact on Turn 1/Turn 2 as you advance anyway.

[Marshal Loss]

4 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Have him advance with the Kakophoni for a turn or two, then once you are ready to get into CC he leaves that unit and joins a combat unit to take some heads. Instead of having no impact on Turn 1/Turn 2 as you advance anyway.

Doesn't address the above. Having a 175/215 point dedicated duelist character footslogging with a mediocre (at best) shooting unit that offers him essentially no protection with their T4/3+ and the unit you actually want him fighting with next to them (presumably also footslogging), is a terrible idea. The boost in effectiveness you gain from his re-rolls is never going to be worth it, not to mention that his re-rolls are conditional on your opponent presenting you with an IC-laden target. Lucius is not the answer.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Marshal Loss
spelling

[Valkyrion]

Lucius might not be the answer, but as soon as his model lands he will be the question. 

I can't wait. Novel wise, I'm a tarvitz fan, but I really like the idea of traitor but not corrupted Emperor's Children army led by Lucius. So I'm going to do that. 

[Brother Kraskor]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:54 PM, Marshal Loss said:

Doesn't address the above. Having a 175/215 point dedicated duelist character footslogging with a mediocre (at best) shooting unit that offers him essentially no protection with their T4/3+ and the unit you actually want him fighting with next to them (presumably also footslogging), is a terrible idea. The boost in effectiveness you gain from his re-rolls is never going to be worth it, not to mention that his re-rolls are conditional on your opponent presenting you with an IC-laden target. Lucius is not the answer.

Ok, between this thread and the other you have convinced me. 

Question then: what's the best use of Eidolon? I feel like a big tooled-up Command Squad is too fragile/expensive, meanwhile a big meaty Assault Squad will just not be able to take out the sort of threats you want Eidolon going for. I feel like jump pack Palatines would've fit perfectly but alas they've been squatted (can we even still use that verb now though I wonder). So how does he fit?