HH 2.0 Brotherhood of the Phoenix: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[Brother Kraskor]

Thinking more about 3rd Company Elite. Kakophoni compete for Heavy slots and have a pretty potent anti-infantry weapon. Yes they blow themselves up, with Apothecaries that is less severe (and this is thematic). Obviously no Line means you still need some scoring units, but could this RoW have potential? 2-3 units of Kakophoni in Troops, backed up by a full complement of Heavies (Sunkillers, Pred Squad, maybe Sicarans, Kratos, Leviathan etc.), Would make for a robust gunline, though this doesn't play to our charge bonus benefit.

[sarovian]

22 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

though this doesn't play to our charge bonus benefit

I think my instinct would be to run 1-for-1 Kakophoni and Despoilers/Assault Squads? Take advantage of the pinning from the Cacophony and get up close and personal. Despite what the RoW does, I don't think it actually changes the army composition that much - you just have Kakophoni filling your close support role instead of, say, tacticals or volkite support.

I'm definitely loathed to give up the charge bonus, so I don't think even 3rd Company will be a true gunline army. 

[Brother Kraskor]

1 hour ago, sarovian said:

I think my instinct would be to run 1-for-1 Kakophoni and Despoilers/Assault Squads? Take advantage of the pinning from the Cacophony and get up close and personal. Despite what the RoW does, I don't think it actually changes the army composition that much - you just have Kakophoni filling your close support role instead of, say, tacticals or volkite support.

I'm definitely loathed to give up the charge bonus, so I don't think even 3rd Company will be a true gunline army. 

Interesting concept. I wish GW would hurry up with Assault kits for the Mk6...! Kakophoni can fulfill that close support role yes, but from further away thanks to their 36" range, no need to get closer than necessary. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Having slept on it, I don't actually think the matched Assaulting units are necessary. The advantage of Pinning is shutting down elements of the enemy force. Provided you've got enough anti-tank, you can effectively pause dealing with infantry once they're pinned and destroy the enemy in detail. Charging them relieves them of the effects of Pinning, though it does guarantee no Reaction.

I think three squads of Kakophoni backed up with a good sniper unit (some Recons and a Vigilator ought to do it) taking out Sergeants and then Pinning key enemy units could be brutal. Plenty of anti-tank in the rest of the army and you could really cause headaches. 

[darkseren1ty]

I’ve had a few games with my EC… and I’ve gotten properly trounced by WS and IF. I found games a LOT harder to play with EC than my WB because they aren’t as resilient nor do they hit particularly hard- even if they go first in assault the majority of the time. The biggest problem i found is the lack of specialized line units. that being said, I am making some breachers to hold objectives. Is this a good idea or am I better off with regular tac marines?

[The Scorpion]

5 hours ago, darkseren1ty said:

I’ve had a few games with my EC… and I’ve gotten properly trounced by WS and IF. I found games a LOT harder to play with EC than my WB because they aren’t as resilient nor do they hit particularly hard- even if they go first in assault the majority of the time. The biggest problem i found is the lack of specialized line units. that being said, I am making some breachers to hold objectives. Is this a good idea or am I better off with regular tac marines?

Why are the Word Bearers more durable?

Their Dark Channeling buffs up their offensive power but don't actually make them tougher.

[darkseren1ty]

1 hour ago, The Scorpion said:

Why are the Word Bearers more durable?

Their Dark Channeling buffs up their offensive power but don't actually make them tougher.

I mostly run gal vorbak with argel tel. High toughness, fnp, inv saves help quite a bit. Plus they have 3 wounds a pop, and are largely immune to the effects of morale. I found that to be a lot tougher to deal with than an equivalent amount of points worth of kakophoni.

 

[The Scorpion]

On 9/2/2022 at 2:12 PM, darkseren1ty said:

I mostly run gal vorbak with argel tel. High toughness, fnp, inv saves help quite a bit. Plus they have 3 wounds a pop, and are largely immune to the effects of morale. I found that to be a lot tougher to deal with than an equivalent amount of points worth of kakophoni.

 

But that's an unfair comparaison. Special units like Kakophoni and Gal Vorbak are but a tiny fraction of what the legion represent both in listbuilding and on the table.

[darkseren1ty]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:42 PM, The Scorpion said:

But that's an unfair comparaison. Special units like Kakophoni and Gal Vorbak are but a tiny fraction of what the legion represent both in listbuilding and on the table.

Maybe so, but I like the look of the models, so I use them.

 

and both legions have RoW that emphasize each of those units, so I thought it would be thematic too. 
 

anyway, how would one go about making a more durable 3rd legion list? Dreads and termies?

[Brother Kraskor]

Think dreads and termies are reasonably essential in this game for some staying power.

 

I've been rethinking Palatines v Phoenix Guard, particularly about durability. On the face of it it's a clear win for Phoenix Guard with the Invul. However, provided you can deliver the unit in some reasonable fashion (Outflank, or a transport where Palatines score better for taking up less room) and get them into combat, I think Palatines might actually be able to pull ahead.

 

The basic idea is offence is the best defence. Palatines with power axes will kill more enemy Termies than Phoenix Guard will thanks to AP2. Make sure you get the charge off to strike first, and you stand a good chance of actually taking out a substantially bigger chunk of the enemy unit than you would with Phoenix Guard. That means fewer return attacks, which will still need to hit on 6s anyway provided you're packing a Sonic Shrieker. Anything that does survive will hurt you, yes, but without having crunched the numbers I'm willing to wager having a 5++ still means a worse outcome than simply killing more enemies and facing less return attacks. 

Secondly, the Palatines can take a regular Apothecary. Yes Phoenix Guard can take a Primus Medicae but HQ slots are hotly contested, and the Apothecary is substantially cheaper. This means that for anything which is not S8 or more, the Palatines are flat out more durable than Phoenix Guard. You can quite happily have the whole squad strike at initiative step 2 (and even 1 in subsequent rounds) against enemy weaponry at normal initiative which is likely 1) not S8 and 2) not AP2. 

[darkseren1ty]

I had a game vs SW last night. We played Blood feud. By the Warmaster! Those buggers are FAST :cuss:! we played on short table edges, and by turn 2 they were already in charge range. 
 

I was playing a gunline army and wanted to try out the sunkillers (from the expanded list). I fielded 10 with lascannons and gave em the augury scanner and the subsonic pulser upgrades (was using elite of the 3rd RoW). We had 2 turns of night fighting, so those turned out to be a valuable investment. The sunkillers made their points back by destroying 2 rhinos, 1 pred, 1 vindicator (via a reaction), and numerous infantry via explosions from the vehicles (I had chosen vehicles for my blood feud- and by turn 3 my opponent had no way to equal my score- he chose infantry- I had 5 units).

I had screened them with a squad of kakophoni and had a nearby eidolon and some Phoenix termies to protect against charges. In the end, the wolves hit hard, but the fearless kakophoni tied them up in combat long enough for me to maneuver my gunline and wipe out the charging interlopers. Eidolon was a rockstar as always- I just wish he had a better warlord trait or something that allowed a general free reaction during a phase. But he got me slay the warlord- and that’s always valuable.

the termies I found were decent, but I could have better spent those points elsewhere.

[Brother Kraskor]

7 hours ago, darkseren1ty said:

 

the termies I found were decent, but I could have better spent those points elsewhere.

What was lacklustre about them? 

[The Scorpion]

Can dedicated transports still outflank?

Combining DTs with Maru Skara outflank that puts them off the table could increase survibability. I dunno.

[Brother Kraskor]

7 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

Can dedicated transports still outflank?

Combining DTs with Maru Skara outflank that puts them off the table could increase survibability. I dunno.

Yes I think they can. DT takes the FOC type (not slot) of the unit they are assigned to. Eg. a Termie unit with a DT, the DT becomes an Elite unit (just doesn't take a slot). 

Then Maru Skara allows you to choose units to gain Outflank. Choose the DT. 

[darkseren1ty]

19 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

What was lacklustre about them? 

I used 10 of them and I had to give them a surgical upgrade (the shriekers) so they came to about 400 odd points. They survived a few rounds of combat thanks to the negatives to hit, but the SWs had too many cheaper bodies with WS 5 and rerolls to hit/wound thanks to a speaker of the dead’s hatred and shred from various weapons. Those slowly chipped away at the squad, until they were wiped out by a couple T hammer wielding characters. Basically, they went down to about 250 points of enemy infantry over 3 assault phases while inflicting about 75% casualties. And it’s not like either side rolled particularly well or badly. 
 

i feel like I might have actually been better off with palatines as I would’ve gotten the same result for less points and i could’ve fielded more bodies. 
 

but the biggest disappointment is that I feel they just don’t hit hard enough. They are gorgeous minis though. And rule of cool is the most important rule.

[Brother Kraskor]

On 9/10/2022 at 10:04 AM, darkseren1ty said:

I used 10 of them and I had to give them a surgical upgrade (the shriekers) so they came to about 400 odd points. They survived a few rounds of combat thanks to the negatives to hit, but the SWs had too many cheaper bodies with WS 5 and rerolls to hit/wound thanks to a speaker of the dead’s hatred and shred from various weapons. Those slowly chipped away at the squad, until they were wiped out by a couple T hammer wielding characters. Basically, they went down to about 250 points of enemy infantry over 3 assault phases while inflicting about 75% casualties. And it’s not like either side rolled particularly well or badly. 
 

i feel like I might have actually been better off with palatines as I would’ve gotten the same result for less points and i could’ve fielded more bodies. 
 

but the biggest disappointment is that I feel they just don’t hit hard enough. They are gorgeous minis though. And rule of cool is the most important rule.

Fair enough. I think the not hitting hard is the clincher with these guys. Palatines with power axes can actually do some work. If you went up against WS4 you could even go Perfect Fury and have 5 attacks each on the charge - terrifying. 

[BlessedXVII]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:58 PM, darkseren1ty said:

I had a game vs SW last night. We played Blood feud. By the Warmaster! Those buggers are FAST :cuss:! we played on short table edges, and by turn 2 they were already in charge range. 
 

I was playing a gunline army and wanted to try out the sunkillers (from the expanded list). I fielded 10 with lascannons and gave em the augury scanner and the subsonic pulser upgrades (was using elite of the 3rd RoW). We had 2 turns of night fighting, so those turned out to be a valuable investment. The sunkillers made their points back by destroying 2 rhinos, 1 pred, 1 vindicator (via a reaction), and numerous infantry via explosions from the vehicles (I had chosen vehicles for my blood feud- and by turn 3 my opponent had no way to equal my score- he chose infantry- I had 5 units).

I had screened them with a squad of kakophoni and had a nearby eidolon and some Phoenix termies to protect against charges. In the end, the wolves hit hard, but the fearless kakophoni tied them up in combat long enough for me to maneuver my gunline and wipe out the charging interlopers. Eidolon was a rockstar as always- I just wish he had a better warlord trait or something that allowed a general free reaction during a phase. But he got me slay the warlord- and that’s always valuable.

the termies I found were decent, but I could have better spent those points elsewhere.

Would you mind sharing your list? I am trying to figure out some lists for Emperor’s Children right now and I’m not entirely sure what I want to do.

[TheNineteenth]

Has anyone made sense of giving Palatine Blades the Termite as a Dedicated Transport?

The Maru Skara, in turn, allows Subterranean Assault to come in on a fixed turn (probably 2)... but the Termite is not an Assault Vehicle, and Palatine Blades are armed for shooting only with Bolt Pistols.

I tried the  Sonic Lance Surgical Augment the other day on Phoenix Terminators, given a lack of missile weapon, but paying for it on Palatine Blades seems a bit odd?

Maybe having them Sonic Lance out of the Termite and accept a charge is the idea?

[The Scorpion]

8 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

Has anyone made sense of giving Palatine Blades the Termite as a Dedicated Transport?

The Maru Skara, in turn, allows Subterranean Assault to come in on a fixed turn (probably 2)... but the Termite is not an Assault Vehicle, and Palatine Blades are armed for shooting only with Bolt Pistols.

I tried the  Sonic Lance Surgical Augment the other day on Phoenix Terminators, given a lack of missile weapon, but paying for it on Palatine Blades seems a bit odd?

Maybe having them Sonic Lance out of the Termite and accept a charge is the idea?

I don't see the point. The Drop Pod does the same faster and cheaper, doesn't it?

[TheNineteenth]

8 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

I don't see the point. The Drop Pod does the same faster and cheaper, doesn't it?

Outside of the Maru Skara, yes, but it doesn't benefit from the Maru Skara fixed/auto/no-roll Reserve benefits (which only effect Flank Assault and Subterranean Assault).

[Brother Kraskor]

Would probably rather save the points and have them just footslog Outflank?

[TheNineteenth]

51 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Would probably rather save the points and have them just footslog Outflank?

Given they can Assault from Flanking Reserve, and not from the Drop Pod or the Termite, I agree, this is probably the better option.

I guess they're being given a weird Veteran/Destroyer role? They do seem to be the only Legion Specific Unit for any Legion that can take the Termite natively, so this really was a big "huh" moment (as I sadly ripped the mk4 Jump Packs that have been on my Palatine Blades since 6th edition 40k games under the first Red Books).

 

Edit: it would also appear that the Drop Pod option for Palatine Blades, Veterans, etc is banned in the Maru Skara, given Movement 0. Definitely another "what were you intending here, Anuj?" moment for me, reading the Subterranean Assault rules that describe being able to assault from an Assault Vehicle with that rule... which, of course, is not the Termite or anything else in the Legions books. lol

Edited September 15, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[Brother Kraskor]

9 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

Edit: it would also appear that the Drop Pod option for Palatine Blades, Veterans, etc is banned in the Maru Skara, given Movement 0. Definitely another "what were you intending here, Anuj?" moment for me, reading the Subterranean Assault rules that describe being able to assault from an Assault Vehicle with that rule... which, of course, is not the Termite or anything else in the Legions books. lol

Aha yes you're right. Doh...!

[TheNineteenth]

12 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Aha yes you're right. Doh...!

Le sigh, would I rather not be.

I also can't help notice that this is just one more negative synergy here with Phoenix Terminators as Retinue, since HQ can't Outflank in the new Maru Skara (though they could only before if attached to Squads of Elites or Fast Attack). Given Anuj deleted this text about attached Independent Characters, I take it this is no longer the case.

 

[The Scorpion]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:54 AM, TheNineteenth said:

Le sigh, would I rather not be.

I also can't help notice that this is just one more negative synergy here with Phoenix Terminators as Retinue, since HQ can't Outflank in the new Maru Skara (though they could only before if attached to Squads of Elites or Fast Attack). Given Anuj deleted this text about attached Independent Characters, I take it this is no longer the case.

 

What if the Phoenix termies are on a Land Raider. The DT outflanks, doesn't it? Any IC inside should as well

Edited September 20, 2022 by The Scorpion