HH 2.0 Brotherhood of the Phoenix: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[Eternal Despair]

45 minutes ago, The Scorpion said:

What if the Phoenix termies are on a Land Raider. The DT outflanks, doesn't it? Any IC inside should as well

Unlike infiltrate and scout their is no provision for outflank to confer from a unit to their dedicated transport so if they buy a transport they loose the ability to outflank

[Brother Kraskor]

9 hours ago, Eternal Despair said:

Unlike infiltrate and scout their is no provision for outflank to confer from a unit to their dedicated transport so if they buy a transport they loose the ability to outflank

Not quite right. Dedicated transports count as the same role as the unit they are bought for. So take Phoenix Termies, they buy a LR, the LR is now an Elites unit. You select the LR as one of your Maru Skara units to gain Outflank. So yes we can after all (but not with Retinues, as they are HQ, any DT for them would be HQ, and Maru Skara is Troops/Fast/Elites).

[TheNineteenth]

21 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Not quite right. Dedicated transports count as the same role as the unit they are bought for. So take Phoenix Termies, they buy a LR, the LR is now an Elites unit. You select the LR as one of your Maru Skara units to gain Outflank. So yes we can after all (but not with Retinues, as they are HQ, any DT for them would be HQ, and Maru Skara is Troops/Fast/Elites).

I agree, but this rule is rather tortured and requires a round about path to work out (since Outlank is almost always conferred by Scouts, except, well, here... and maybe Hammer of Olympia?).

[sarovian]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:44 AM, The Scorpion said:

What if the Phoenix termies are on a Land Raider. The DT outflanks, doesn't it? Any IC inside should as well

The RoW specifically calls out units taken as Elites, Troops, and Fast Attack choices can be granted Outflank - not entirely sure how a DT interacts with that, if at all? And then the retinue is considered part of the HQ slot to boot anyway.

I think the only way to Outflank them is taking Phoenix Termies in the Elite slot, giving them a DT, then give that DT Outflank with Maru Skara, then deploy the IC in the DT attached to the Terminators? I think?

 

Edit- whoops, how on earth did I not see the second page to this thread, I blame browsing on mobile! 

Edited September 21, 2022 by sarovian

[StrangerOrders]

So with Palatines having their mobility again, I feel like that changes things up for the better. 

Havent had that many games yet in 2.0 though, so I'll ask if people think the mobility will benefit thr PBs as they are for the price asked.

[darkseren1ty]

6 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

So with Palatines having their mobility again, I feel like that changes things up for the better. 

Havent had that many games yet in 2.0 though, so I'll ask if people think the mobility will benefit thr PBs as they are for the price asked.

Palatines got their mobility back? Jump packs are back?

[StrangerOrders]

2 hours ago, darkseren1ty said:

Palatines got their mobility back? Jump packs are back?

In the updated Legacies doc dropped today.

Its a new unit labeled 'Palatine Blade Aquilae Squad' in the same vein as how Reavers got their mobility split into a new squad.

[darkseren1ty]

5 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

In the updated Legacies doc dropped today.

Its a new unit labeled 'Palatine Blade Aquilae Squad' in the same vein as how Reavers got their mobility split into a new squad.

Could you send me the link for it? I can’t find it on the war com site.

[Cactus]

FAQ docs are here.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Cactus
Wrong link. *facepalm*

[Brother Kraskor]

13 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

In the updated Legacies doc dropped today.

Its a new unit labeled 'Palatine Blade Aquilae Squad' in the same vein as how Reavers got their mobility split into a new squad.

At an average of 4pts per model if you take ten guys. That's a no-brainer to me!

[The Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

At an average of 4pts per model if you take ten guys. That's a no-brainer to me!

Finally a good retinue for Eidolon.

[Brother Kraskor]

1 hour ago, The Scorpion said:

Finally a good retinue for Eidolon.

Yes I was just thinking this. With power axes they could be frightening, plenty of AP2 attacks hitting on 2s or 3s, enemy is likely hitting you on 6s, and if they've killed anything so far you will wound them on 2s as well. Savage!

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:03 AM, sarovian said:

The RoW specifically calls out units taken as Elites, Troops, and Fast Attack choices can be granted Outflank - not entirely sure how a DT interacts with that, if at all? And then the retinue is considered part of the HQ slot to boot anyway.

I think the only way to Outflank them is taking Phoenix Termies in the Elite slot, giving them a DT, then give that DT Outflank with Maru Skara, then deploy the IC in the DT attached to the Terminators? I think?

 

Edit- whoops, how on earth did I not see the second page to this thread, I blame browsing on mobile! 

I could see this being the target of defensive "you can't do that!" rules-lawyering.

[TheNineteenth]

20 minutes ago, TheNineteenth said:

I could see this being the target of defensive "you can't do that!" rules-lawyering.

The more I think about it, though, that would mean that, if their contents lacked those rules, a Storm Eagle couldn't Deep Strike or Outflank, and a Drop Pod or Caestus Ram couldn't Deep Strike.

I don't think I have yet seen someone argue that, and the implications seem absurd and unintended. 

[Brother Kraskor]

When it comes to the Primarch, what do we think, Laer blade or Fireblade? Fleshbane is good, Murderous is nice too though, and if you add a Biomancer to his unit Fireblade is at S8 anyway. Though for the kind of matchups he's going into, does he even need Murderous? Anything big will be Eternal Warrior, anything small he will just annihilate anyway.

[darkseren1ty]

4 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

When it comes to the Primarch, what do we think, Laer blade or Fireblade? Fleshbane is good, Murderous is nice too though, and if you add a Biomancer to his unit Fireblade is at S8 anyway. Though for the kind of matchups he's going into, does he even need Murderous? Anything big will be Eternal Warrior, anything small he will just annihilate anyway.

I almost always go with blade of the laer. That fleshbane is just too useful to pass up.

[Slips]

Yeah, just be aware of some Primarch abilities that neuter the effect of Fleshbane like Dorns Armor making him only woundable on a 4+ or Mortarion making Poison and Fleshbane only able to wound him on a 6+

[WrathOfTheLion]

Any opinions on loadouts for Palatine Aquilae? Looks like a lot of folks have done power axes, so I'll probably give them some of those.

Got some of the torsos from the MtO run and bought a MK IV assault squad, so I'm thinking of converting a squad up from that.

A bit new to Emperor's Children, but working on a small force of Istvaan III loyalists to go with Saul Tarvitz.

[Theredknight]

How have we found Kakophoni this edition?
I havent played EC yet this ed, but the 3 x GETS HOT! looks punishing, used to kill off the squad enough with 2 of them before. but at least you had that sick instant death if you focus fired your units into say, terminators.

Now you dont really get any sort of benefit to them and youd be better placing your points elsewhere if you still wanted some troops left at the end of T4?

[darkseren1ty]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:17 AM, Theredknight said:

How have we found Kakophoni this edition?
I havent played EC yet this ed, but the 3 x GETS HOT! looks punishing, used to kill off the squad enough with 2 of them before. but at least you had that sick instant death if you focus fired your units into say, terminators.

Now you dont really get any sort of benefit to them and youd be better placing your points elsewhere if you still wanted some troops left at the end of T4?

Kakophoni are fantastic at killing non TEQ infantry and the pinning is awesome. I haven’t found gets hot to be that much of an issue if you give them an apoth.

however, the lack of a RoW or character or upgrade that makes them line really really sucks. 

[Brother Kraskor]

8 hours ago, darkseren1ty said:

Kakophoni are fantastic at killing non TEQ infantry and the pinning is awesome. I haven’t found gets hot to be that much of an issue if you give them an apoth.

however, the lack of a RoW or character or upgrade that makes them line really really sucks. 

I get the general point that Traitors have been done dirty re: Line, and the suspicion is this is due to the obvious multiple authors (some think Troops is sufficient to score because they haven't worked on that part of the book etc). But for Kakophoni the argument is probably weakest. They literally don't care about objectives.

They would be a very strong choice if they were Line mind - Fearless, strong guns and plenty of range, with Apothecary they'd be first rate objective holders.

[Marshal Loss]

2 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

I get the general point that Traitors have been done dirty re: Line, and the suspicion is this is due to the obvious multiple authors (some think Troops is sufficient to score because they haven't worked on that part of the book etc). But for Kakophoni the argument is probably weakest. They literally don't care about objectives.

If Rampagers - frothing lobotomised madmen - can be given Line, there's no good reason at all why Kakophoni shouldn't. They function reliably and effectively as an honour guard in the HH novels on multiple occasions. Line isn't a rule that states whether a unit cares about objectives or not, it's just an arbitrary label attached by the game designers. An objective in the game could be anything from a dark ritual site to a legion relic to a site of strategic import to a cache of drugs.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 5:17 PM, Theredknight said:

How have we found Kakophoni this edition?
I havent played EC yet this ed, but the 3 x GETS HOT! looks punishing, used to kill off the squad enough with 2 of them before. but at least you had that sick instant death if you focus fired your units into say, terminators.

Now you dont really get any sort of benefit to them and youd be better placing your points elsewhere if you still wanted some troops left at the end of T4?

They're not terrible but not great in my experience, with performances ranging from lackluster to okay. Lack of scoring/any tangible benefits whatsoever in 3CE really sucks, and the loss of bio-psychic shock combined with the increase in shots means that on the occasions you shoot something tough you're reliably going to kill yourself more than the opponent. Thematically speaking, their eldritch warp-exposing and reality-rending weapons possessing an identical pinning modifier to a mere rotor cannon is a source of ongoing disappointment.

At the end of the day though they're fearless with good mobility and good range. They're a decent source of pinning compared to other options and function well enough as part of a bevy of threats, but aren't good enough or reliable enough to form the core of an army anymore, in my opinion anyway, which is a real pity. Hopefully they get tweaked in the future.

[darkseren1ty]

I’ve got a few games with the EC under my belt now.. and the one unit I’ve had that’s consistently performed well are my lascannon sunkillers which I run in a 7-10 man squad depending on game size. I gave the sergeant a subsonic pulser and augury scanner, and occasionally attach an apothecary to the squad if I suspect there will be a lot of enemy shooting. Deploy backline ideally in ruins or some other form of elevated cover- and you can obliterate a target a turn. I also run the broken mirror warlord trait- so I often end up wiping out enemy units with the reactionary shooting who attempt to shoot at these god killing icons of perfection.

 

my kakophoni I’ve fielded have given me mixed results. They reliably pin units which is amazingly useful against melee armies (and against scary shooting psychic powers or heavy infantry)- and while that is brilliant- the gets hot often means they tend to get wiped out very quickly to even a scattering of enemy bolter fire as they’ve already sustained casualties. An apoth is a must for these guys. I also attach a master of signals to maximize their damage output. 
 

my Phoenix termies have been pretty lackluster tbh. They just end up getting stuck in combat and don’t do much. I am considering a termie chaplain or biomancer to help them perform a bit better. Their main problem is that they just don’t have the attacks to make use of their murderous strikes and breach abilities. And their perfect guard/fury/strike is extremely situational at best and more often than not- just detrimental.

 

special character wise.. I’ve only got fulgrim and eidolon (ordered lucius). Fulgrim is… ok. I sadly haven’t had a chance to duel many primarchs with him- but I think he’d be pretty decent- but only in a primarch challenge. Otherwise his force multiplying effects are sweet FA (selfish glory-hogging bugger), which is thematic.

 

eidolon is incredible. Either keeping him solo hidden behind obscuring terrain protecting your gunline/line units or giving him a small squad of assault marines or flying palatines… he wrecks face. Dreadnaughts, tanks, even certain primarchs (I was very lucky). He’s pricey but a really nice insurance policy against unwelcome invaders to your part of the table. I’d consider using him more offensively but he’s quite pricey and I’d be sad if he died before smashing anything.

 

going forward- I’m considering dropping my Phoenix termies in favor of cataphractii with powerfists. Or just eschewing the melee elements of my army entirely and allying in a detachment of word bearers with a mara gal and gal vorbak to be my melee Advance force.

 

 

[Brother Kraskor]

Thanks for sharing darkseren1ty. It's a shame so many events ban the PDFs because of a couple of offenders, I have kind of turned away from Sunkillers or flying Palatines as a result. Do you come up against snipers very much as your Noveator would be a prime target with the augury scanner and pulser. I think Broken mirror is an absolute no-brainer for us, Shooting reacts are the best and the almost-Fearless aura is just so handy. 

 

Master of Signals for the Kakophoni is interesting, that's a big points investment, do you find your Elites are full or might you be better served with just a Techmarine there? Though appreciate the MoS also has reserves shenanigans up his sleeve. 

 

Lacklustre phoenix termies makes sense, such a shame they cut the AP2 stance from the earlier versions. Would you really want Cataphractii though and lose the chance of a Sweep? Maybe Command squad Tartaros with fists would do a better job?

 

Also you've just pushed me over the edge with Eidolon and earned forge world some money so well done! 

[darkseren1ty]

On 10/15/2022 at 11:44 AM, Brother Kraskor said:

Thanks for sharing darkseren1ty. It's a shame so many events ban the PDFs because of a couple of offenders, I have kind of turned away from Sunkillers or flying Palatines as a result. Do you come up against snipers very much as your Noveator would be a prime target with the augury scanner and pulser. I think Broken mirror is an absolute no-brainer for us, Shooting reacts are the best and the almost-Fearless aura is just so handy. 

 

Master of Signals for the Kakophoni is interesting, that's a big points investment, do you find your Elites are full or might you be better served with just a Techmarine there? Though appreciate the MoS also has reserves shenanigans up his sleeve. 

 

Lacklustre phoenix termies makes sense, such a shame they cut the AP2 stance from the earlier versions. Would you really want Cataphractii though and lose the chance of a Sweep? Maybe Command squad Tartaros with fists would do a better job?

 

Also you've just pushed me over the edge with Eidolon and earned forge world some money so well done! 

The snipers are brutal against sunkillers. Had a tournament this weekend and white scars seized the initiative and squads of recon units sniped my master of signals from my kakophoni and pinned my sunkillers. It was an absolute slug fest after that. My melee word bearer Allies did their part quite well, but the first turn seize neutered half my army’s offensive capabilities quite effectively. I wish I had traded in maybe 2 sunkillers and the Phoenix termies for a squad of snipers and maybe some ap2 upgrades for some of my squad leaders.  Or maybe just went with a scorpius to wipe out those snipers.