HH 2.0 Brotherhood of the Phoenix: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[Theredknight]

As an aside, so palatines are ok, but glass hammer, but lovely models. 
 

has anyone tried a command squad or veterans? I was thinking of chucking a smaller elite unit in there and sticking eidolon in an assault squad to deliver his thunder hammer attacks upon some fools. 
 

advantage with command squad is banner etc, plus, would look pretty cool as well. 

[HeinzD]

What are your guys thoughts on the inductii, i am a big fan tbh

225 points for a squad of 15 with sabres sounds great 

[Cleon]

I just don't get it.

 

Why are the inductii better equipped than the established Legion Despoilers? Why are GW pushing a unit they don't even pretend to support making? I guess I'll probably put some together at some point, but thee aren't any decent 'melee/advancing' HH bodies out there without going to resin, so I'm in no rush,

[HeinzD]

42 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I just don't get it.

 

Why are the inductii better equipped than the established Legion Despoilers? Why are GW pushing a unit they don't even pretend to support making? I guess I'll probably put some together at some point, but thee aren't any decent 'melee/advancing' HH bodies out there without going to resin, so I'm in no rush,

Desperatly waiting for the assault marine release over here, lol  

[dicebod]

21 hours ago, HeinzD said:

What are your guys thoughts on the inductii, i am a big fan tbh

225 points for a squad of 15 with sabres sounds great 

The biggest question for me when it comes to evaluating this unit is: is breaching (5+) from the charnabal sabre better than shred on a chainsword? And is it better *enough* to justify the 5 points extra per guy? Math-hammer gods, care to weigh in?

The LD 10 v. shooting is certainly nice though.

[Cleon]

Quick and dirty maths suggests against basic power armour (wounding on 4s, 3+ save) it's an over 50% lethality buff per man for a 50% points rise, the stats get better if it's a 2+ with no invul, worse if there is an invul. Once you take into account potentially striking before other high AP attacks with the EC rule then it does compound nicely.

 

If we ignore the Sgt and come up with a theoretical 150 points of despoilers, that's 10 with charnabal or 15 with chainswords.

 

So, assuming facing basic an even enemy tactical squad (hit on 4s, wound on 4s, 3+ saves) -but remember the Charnabal are better placed to kill off artificer shenanigans.

 

Ignoring probability and going on straight averages, the Chainsword squad gets 2, 3 or 4 attacks per model depending if they charged and if Spite of the legion is active, so 30, 45 or 60 attacks. The chance of a wound is 3/4 (1/2 native, then 1/2 of 1/2 for shred re-rolls) and each wound has a 1/3 chance of going through, so 3 3/4 kills, 5 5/8 or 7 1/2 kills. depending how many swings they get.

 

A similar Charnabal squad gets 20, 30 or 40 attacks (as they have less guys swinging), half the wounds fail, 1/6 goes to armour and 1/3 goes straight through gets 3 8/9. 5 5/6 or 7 7/9 kills. 

 

So it's very similar before you take any casualties, the Charnable squad loses killing power faster, but is more transportable and easier to move around the table - it can get more powerful if more points are spent to get to the same number of men whereas the chainsword squad hits the max size sooner (points wise).

 

For reference against a 2+ no invul squad, the numbers go to:

Chainswords:  1 7/8, 2 13/16 & 3 3/4 (straight halved)

Charnable: 3 11/18, 5 5/12 & 7 2/9 (lose only half of the 1/3 wounds which allow saves)

 

But against Terminators (2+ 4++ or 5++)

Chainswords: 1 7/8, 2 13/16 & 3 3/4 (sames as above, they don't care)

Charnabal versus Catapharactii: 1 17/18, 2 11/12 & 3 8/9 (loses half their Breaches)

Charnable versus Tartaros: 2 1/2, 3 3/4 & 5 (lose 1/3 of their breaches)

 

Take from that what you will and feel free to check my maths.

[The Scorpion]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:02 AM, Theredknight said:

As an aside, so palatines are ok, but glass hammer, but lovely models. 
 

has anyone tried a command squad or veterans? I was thinking of chucking a smaller elite unit in there and sticking eidolon in an assault squad to deliver his thunder hammer attacks upon some fools. 
 

advantage with command squad is banner etc, plus, would look pretty cool as well. 

Is a bog-standart assault squad the best retinue for Eidolon though?

[Theredknight]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:54 PM, The Scorpion said:

Is a bog-standart assault squad the best retinue for Eidolon though?

Personally I found that putting him in special units was massive overkill.

delivering those hammer attacks was pretty devastating Il let you know when I try it out.

[MichaelCarmine]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:29 PM, Theredknight said:

Personally I found that putting him in special units was massive overkill.

delivering those hammer attacks was pretty devastating Il let you know when I try it out.

I think it's less about overkill on the output side and rather about keeping the unit on the field as long as possible with the defence. 

A mere Assault Squad with WS4 will eat alot of Damage from anything, that survives Eidolons hammer attacks and die rather fast, even with Sonic shriekers. 

A Palatine Aquila Squad on the other hand with WS5, Skill Unmatched and Sonic Shriekers will have to save against only a fraction of the incomming attacks, because even other elites will only hit them on 6s, 5s in the "worst" case.

[SkimaskMohawk]

12 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I think it's less about overkill on the output side and rather about keeping the unit on the field as long as possible with the defence. 

A mere Assault Squad with WS4 will eat alot of Damage from anything, that survives Eidolons hammer attacks and die rather fast, even with Sonic shriekers. 

A Palatine Aquila Squad on the other hand with WS5, Skill Unmatched and Sonic Shriekers will have to save against only a fraction of the incomming attacks, because even other elites will only hit them on 6s, 5s in the "worst" case.

 

From convos with my buddy slowly building ECs, you'd want mass sonic lances through third company elite. A huge amount of breaching and pinning templates before combat even starts helps equalize things.

[Brother Kraskor]

Palatine Aquilae kept cheap as possible performing the defensive stance might be the way to go. Let Eidolon do the heavy lifting in a challenge, while the rest tank hits thanks to being v hard to hit (non-Fearless up to even WS5 will hit them on 6s). 

[The Scorpion]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:49 PM, Brother Kraskor said:

Palatine Aquilae kept cheap as possible performing the defensive stance might be the way to go. Let Eidolon do the heavy lifting in a challenge, while the rest tank hits thanks to being v hard to hit (non-Fearless up to even WS5 will hit them on 6s). 

 

So... what you recommend is a 5-man Aquilae to be Eidolon's bodyguard, with just charnabal sabres?

[Brother Kraskor]

No I think probably still ten dudes, but save 50-odd points on tooling them with phoenix gear and just keep the sabres as they are there predominantly to tank whilst dealing out a bit of output. The sabres arent terrible weapons either. Could even put the points saved into an apothecary to improve their tankiness further.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Brother Kraskor

[Brother Kraskor]

Been wondering recently whether going combined arms with EC, whilst fluffy, is a mistake if you want to capitalise on their rules. Assault is by far and away the favoured method, striking ahead of enemy marines to tip the scales then hope for a sweep. Speed therefore is essential. Massed Assault marines for enemy 3+ backed up by Palatine Aquilae for tougher targets? The only thing you miss is tank-busting, but this could be achieved in a fluffy way with Sky-hunters with Multi-meltas. 

[dicebod]

On 6/9/2023 at 7:13 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

From convos with my buddy slowly building ECs, you'd want mass sonic lances through third company elite. A huge amount of breaching and pinning templates before combat even starts helps equalize things.

The ability to get sonic lances on full units of Phoenix Terminators and Palatines eliminates some of the need for 3rd Company Elite IMHO. 10 Palatines with lances can do work in pretty much every phase and you can still get the benefit of Sonic Shriekers with an attached character or two.

[SkimaskMohawk]

23 minutes ago, dicebod said:

The ability to get sonic lances on full units of Phoenix Terminators and Palatines eliminates some of the need for 3rd Company Elite IMHO. 10 Palatines with lances can do work in pretty much every phase and you can still get the benefit of Sonic Shriekers with an attached character or two.

 

Sure, but the quality of the models they're on doesnt matter for the lances; having 10 palatines or 10 tacs doesn't make much of a difference if the goal is to drown the opponent in templates, with the units that can go up to 20 benefitting even more for the points. And those units are compulsory troops, giving you more flexibility on the non troops.

 

Idk, I'd be way more scared of 20 assaults with sonic lances than 10 of either elite units. 

[dicebod]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:46 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Sure, but the quality of the models they're on doesnt matter for the lances; having 10 palatines or 10 tacs doesn't make much of a difference if the goal is to drown the opponent in templates, with the units that can go up to 20 benefitting even more for the points. And those units are compulsory troops, giving you more flexibility on the non troops.

 

Idk, I'd be way more scared of 20 assaults with sonic lances than 10 of either elite units. 

Fair enough, but good luck trying to arrange your unit such that you'd be able to use all 20 templates without hitting your own guys!

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, dicebod said:

Fair enough, but good luck trying to arrange your unit such that you'd be able to use all 20 templates without hitting your own guys!

 

Jump packs can definitely help with that, but ya all 20 would be hard on the offense. Off overwatch though? Average of 40 shots and 7 breaches, enough to force a pinning test and skunk the charge and kill a few elite models.

[Brother Kraskor]

Has anyone had much success with our Inductii? Massed Breaching 5+ seems like it could be strong, and the Ld10 is great too. Maybe combo with Kakohponi to pin things, charge in for 4A each and strike first.

 

Separately, I'm scratching my head trying to find a way to force a Morale check on my own unit in my own turn to trigger Paragon of Excellence?

[MichaelCarmine]

Hoooolys***!

 

[dicebod]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:41 AM, Brother Kraskor said:

Has anyone had much success with our Inductii? Massed Breaching 5+ seems like it could be strong, and the Ld10 is great too. Maybe combo with Kakohponi to pin things, charge in for 4A each and strike first.

 

Separately, I'm scratching my head trying to find a way to force a Morale check on my own unit in my own turn to trigger Paragon of Excellence?

I'm just...not convinced that Inductii are better than standard despoilers. You're paying 5 points per guy for breaching on the sabres...but then you lose the shred on the chainswords, can't attach characters and miss out on sgt upgrades. The LD 10 from shooting is nice though.

Best way to force a morale check on your own unit is with the Brace assault phase reaction. Pass the check and you are +1 WS and your enemies are disordered :)

[HeinzD]

12 hours ago, dicebod said:

I'm just...not convinced that Inductii are better than standard despoilers. You're paying 5 points per guy for breaching on the sabres...but then you lose the shred on the chainswords, can't attach characters and miss out on sgt upgrades. The LD 10 from shooting is nice though.

Best way to force a morale check on your own unit is with the Brace assault phase reaction. Pass the check and you are +1 WS and your enemies are disordered :)

I think that really depends what you want to use them for, on the 31st of May someone made a post here, breaking down the math, inductii vs despoiler.

I dont think they are an auto include over regular despoilers, but definitly worth considering. 

[Brother Kraskor]

So, he's coming in at 600pts. I know we've not got all the rules for him (just a flavour, I imagine his wings move faster than 9" similar to a jump pack), but I was wondering fraters what we think might be a good list to run with him? I think target saturation is going to have to come into it, lots of fast-moving high-threat melee units probably. Maybe 2-3 Contemptors would be a good accompaniment? Forcing hard choices etc. What are your thoughts.

 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

On 9/10/2023 at 11:40 AM, Brother Kraskor said:

So, he's coming in at 600pts. I know we've not got all the rules for him (just a flavour, I imagine his wings move faster than 9" similar to a jump pack), but I was wondering fraters what we think might be a good list to run with him? I think target saturation is going to have to come into it, lots of fast-moving high-threat melee units probably. Maybe 2-3 Contemptors would be a good accompaniment? Forcing hard choices etc. What are your thoughts.

 

 

The book he's in will also contain new rules and rites for "particulary corrupted hosts" of Emperors Children.

So i'd say best wait for them, since i figure, these rules will have a big impact on what units to choose ^^

[Brother Kraskor]

32 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

The book he's in will also contain new rules and rites for "particulary corrupted hosts" of Emperors Children.

So i'd say best wait for them, since i figure, these rules will have a big impact on what units to choose ^^

 

I completely agree frater, 'wait and see' is 100% the sound choice. But we are Emperor's Children after all and I cannot help but rub my hands together in glee and speculate! 

 

Very intrigued to see what the rules & rites are. It can't be any new models, maybe combat drugs? Daemon integration (though we still don't have a Ruinstorm ruleset)? I'd love to see a really wacky Rite.