HH 2.0 Brotherhood of the Phoenix: IIIrd Legion Tactica

[sonsoftaurus]

Ok, checking some of my assumptions -

 

1) for strike at initiative, phoenix spear is just straight up better than other pw options, right? I tried to see why sword, etc might be better in some cases but other than spear as two handed, don’t see it. 
 

2) For Maru Skara, each transport counts against the limit, right? So a tac squad with rhino could participate but would be two ‘slots’ for the outflank. 
 

Thanks!

[Brother Kraskor]

14 hours ago, sonsoftaurus said:

Ok, checking some of my assumptions -

 

1) for strike at initiative, phoenix spear is just straight up better than other pw options, right? I tried to see why sword, etc might be better in some cases but other than spear as two handed, don’t see it. 
 

2) For Maru Skara, each transport counts against the limit, right? So a tac squad with rhino could participate but would be two ‘slots’ for the outflank. 
 

Thanks!

1) I'd be inclined to agree but horses for courses etc.

 

2) No, Dedicated transports take on the Force Org slot of the unit they're bought for. So a Tac squad takes a Rhino, that Rhino is a Troops unit. With Maru Skara, you choose up to 4 units to gain Outflank, so you choose the Rhino. The Rhino now has Outflank and therefore allows its occupants to come with it - you don't need to also choose the Tac squad.

[dicebod]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:50 AM, sonsoftaurus said:

Ok, checking some of my assumptions -

 

1) for strike at initiative, phoenix spear is just straight up better than other pw options, right? I tried to see why sword, etc might be better in some cases but other than spear as two handed, don’t see it. 

The phoenix spear is pretty solid. +1 initiative, effective S6, ignoring armor saves and instant death on 6s to wound. Compared to normal power weapons it really comes out on top, unless you really need the always-on AP2 of the power axe.

That leaves us with the phoenix rapier. The big advantage the rapier has is the fact that it's not two handed, so you get extra attacks and therefore more opportunities for proc that murderous strike. That's a pretty big upside, especially when you can take them en masse (i.e., in a unit of palatine blades). 

If you had to make me choose I'd probably give a slight edge to the spear, but the comparison is a whole lot closer between the two phoenix weapons.
 

[Brother Kraskor]

Fraters, keen to hear your experiences of Kakophoni this edition. I have ten but they've yet to see the table. I've been thinking of a list which has 20 of the buggers, both squads supported by an Apothecary and a Cognis Techmarine. It's a big points investment but I think having two squads would just hugely up their impact, hosing down infantry (which we know dominate most lists). 2s to hit and wound marines is going to force a lot of saves, and they'd be pretty lethal for Pinning during Night Fighting. 

[darkseren1ty]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:58 PM, Brother Kraskor said:

Fraters, keen to hear your experiences of Kakophoni this edition. I have ten but they've yet to see the table. I've been thinking of a list which has 20 of the buggers, both squads supported by an Apothecary and a Cognis Techmarine. It's a big points investment but I think having two squads would just hugely up their impact, hosing down infantry (which we know dominate most lists). 2s to hit and wound marines is going to force a lot of saves, and they'd be pretty lethal for Pinning during Night Fighting. 

I use quite a bit of kakophoni in my lists with varied success. Mostly I use them for fluffy reasons. 
 

an apothecary is essential for them for them to survive long enough to do any significant damage. 
 

I’ve also sometimes added Lucius to them to provide preferred enemy when targeting squads with an attached character. Rerolling 1s is so so needed for them. 
 

overall, they’re cool. But almost never worth it. That gets hot just ruins them. They end up wiping themselves out more often than the enemy.

[The Scorpion]

Rumor is that the new rules are mess

[Brother Kraskor]

The Brotherhood of the Phoenix RoW has me intrigued. 5 Champions, with Preferred Enemy (everything). Chuck those in Kakophoni! 

[Gorgoff]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:03 PM, darkseren1ty said:

I use quite a bit of kakophoni in my lists with varied success. Mostly I use them for fluffy reasons. 
 

an apothecary is essential for them for them to survive long enough to do any significant damage. 
 

I’ve also sometimes added Lucius to them to provide preferred enemy when targeting squads with an attached character. Rerolling 1s is so so needed for them. 
 

overall, they’re cool. But almost never worth it. That gets hot just ruins them. They end up wiping themselves out more often than the enemy.

Whenever I played against them they always delivered harshy and seldom lost one of their own. I don't think they are bad. Quite the opposite. 

 

[dicebod]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:22 AM, Brother Kraskor said:

The Brotherhood of the Phoenix RoW has me intrigued. 5 Champions, with Preferred Enemy (everything). Chuck those in Kakophoni! 

Yeah...of the two the Brotherhood of the Phoenix is undoubtedly better. I think with Champions sprinkled into hard hitting shooting and CC units (including Daemon Fulgrim's own) you can saturate the board with threats. How about this for a Death Star: Fulgrim Transfigured, a Jump Pack Champion, Jump Pack Apothecary and 10x Palatine Aquilae, all rocking the Warp Scream Augment, You have two nasty-ish close combat characters, PE from the champ and 20 auto-hitting HoW attacks that rend on 5+. Plus the Aquilae still benefit from Skill Unmatched, so even though they are losing Sonic Shriekers they still have a potential defensive buff.,

[Brother Kraskor]

23 hours ago, dicebod said:

Yeah...of the two the Brotherhood of the Phoenix is undoubtedly better. I think with Champions sprinkled into hard hitting shooting and CC units (including Daemon Fulgrim's own) you can saturate the board with threats. How about this for a Death Star: Fulgrim Transfigured, a Jump Pack Champion, Jump Pack Apothecary and 10x Palatine Aquilae, all rocking the Warp Scream Augment, You have two nasty-ish close combat characters, PE from the champ and 20 auto-hitting HoW attacks that rend on 5+. Plus the Aquilae still benefit from Skill Unmatched, so even though they are losing Sonic Shriekers they still have a potential defensive buff.,

 

It's good, but what are the Palatines armed with? They are going to massively suffer against enemy Terminators. Can't take a Biomancer to give them T5 (and therefore a FNP and no instant death v S8), their power axes strike at Initiative 1 on the charge again. Fulgrim can only do so much heavy lifting before the massacre of his unit comes into play. 

 

The Preferred Enemy sprinkled around is a very tempting prospect. If it could stay with either Flawless Execution or Sonic shriekers I think it would be enough, but with the loss of both... I am really struggling to see a case for corrupted EC outside the nice model. 

 

I almost wonder if the only potentially strong game way to run corrupted EC is as a shooty list, with the Champions going in Heavy support squads/tactical support squads. Which totally runs against the fluff.

 

Edit: On reflection, if Eidolon and Lucius, and Phoenix Guard & Palatines can still have their sonic shriekers (as it's in the profile and not legion wargear), this might not be fatal. Loss of added initiative is a shame, can no longer rely on cheeky AP2 ahead of enemies, have to just rethink how we win combats. Duellist characters wrecking the enemy, the bodyguard holding them up with their defensive stance, and Champions sprinkled elsewhere for unexpected Preferred Enemy (I'm thinking especially on Kakophoni). Stupefied rule may as well be completely forgotten about tbh.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Brother Kraskor

[Brother Kraskor]

Had a thought about Stupefied. Potentially quite useful for Dreads, as they're Fearless so it's a 5+++ across as many Dreads as you like, without using a reaction. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Fraters, has anyone done much with aircraft and Maru Skara? Eliminating the randomness of their deployment seems to me like it might counter a lot of their weaknesses. You can eliminate or at least mitigate enemy Skyfire and then choose to bring them on.

 

I've been thinking of a list with three Xiphons. They could really ruin someone's day if you've worked hard to wipe out enemy Skyfire. 

[Lord Morgrim]

Haven’t tried aircraft but I’m getting sick of alpha legion sniping characters and lascannon hss squads interceptor shooting my deep strike squad so I’m thinking maru skara with 6 Contemptors. That’s only 2 elite slots and automatically walk on the turn I want with outflank. That plus eidolon and a unit of assault marines or aquilae and maybe termies. Too many targets to choose from. But only against egregious armies.

[Brother Kraskor]

Six outflanking Contemptors on Turn 2 would definitely win games (and lose friends)!  Assault Marines/Aquilae a bit more proportionate maybe (though Eidolon wouldn't be able to accompany as he's an HQ). 

Edited February 9 by Brother Kraskor

[The Scorpion]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:54 PM, Brother Kraskor said:

Fraters, has anyone done much with aircraft and Maru Skara? Eliminating the randomness of their deployment seems to me like it might counter a lot of their weaknesses. You can eliminate or at least mitigate enemy Skyfire and then choose to bring them on.

 

I've been thinking of a list with three Xiphons. They could really ruin someone's day if you've worked hard to wipe out enemy Skyfire. 

I don't get it. Why would Interceptor struggle against Deep Strike but not Outflank?

[Cleon]

19 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

I don't get it. Why would Interceptor struggle against Deep Strike but not Outflank?

It's not the outflank, it's the choice of when to bring them on.

 

If all you outflank under Maru Skara is aircraft then you can commit to bringing them on the turn you think you'll have dealt with intercepting skyfire without worrying about failing the reserve roll and losing the unit.

[Brother Kraskor]

On 2/28/2024 at 6:56 PM, Cleon said:

It's not the outflank, it's the choice of when to bring them on.

 

If all you outflank under Maru Skara is aircraft then you can commit to bringing them on the turn you think you'll have dealt with intercepting skyfire without worrying about failing the reserve roll and losing the unit.

Yes this. Gives you time to clear the way for your aircraft so they can come on unmolested. Opponent then has to chuck a fair bit of resources if they're hitting on 6s. Might still struggle vs 10-man Lascannon heavies but what doesn't...!

[The Scorpion]

On 11/29/2023 at 3:56 PM, Brother Kraskor said:

Had a thought about Stupefied. Potentially quite useful for Dreads, as they're Fearless so it's a 5+++ across as many Dreads as you like, without using a reaction. 

I've heard people argue that Legiones Hereticus is better than it looks, due to the psych immunity. Like 'Broken Mirror' on crack.
I remain unconvinced.
Disordered charges remove a load of attacks, 6+++ is iffy imho, and Debased Augments can't quite make up for it.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah I agree, and I suspect the people making that argument either don't actually play the game or are overreacting to others themselves incorrectly claiming that the rule has no merits whatsoever. It's not some hidden gem - Lords of Profligacy/Stupefied is exactly what it looks like. There are going to be occasions where it's incredibly impactful and a scoring unit avoids being pinned and wins you the game, or a charging unit is able to make it into combat with a disordered charge instead of getting pinned by overwatch. When that kind of thing happens, it's great. But in my experience most games end up feeling like you're playing without a trait.

 

If you were going to be pinned/blinded/concussed in the first place, then it's good, because you often weren't going to be able to react anyway and getting some bonuses rather than none or making a disordered charge rather than not charging at all is a no-brainer. The problem is that you pretty much never want to be Stupefied and it ends up feeling like a not-so-great insurance policy.

• The 6+++ activates after you get shot, and doesn't stack with bonuses from Apothecaries (disincenvitising their use in a legion known for them...) or rules like Heart of the Legion. The unique reaction is great but it's once per game.
  • Yes Stupefied can be useful on Dreadnoughts for the 5+++/ignoring debuffs...but they are already one of the best units in the game, and our Dreads were already great with the old trait.
• +1S is almost always worse than +1A.
• Not being able to react is a massive impediment in a game where reactions are so powerful.
• You obviously don't want to snapshot if you're a shooting unit.

And then there's all the other issues that come with the Legiones Hereticus rules, like no rites, no corrupted rites without Fulgrim, lack of widespread access to new augments, loss of the old augments, etc, but that's a separate issue to the trait.

 

Ideally I think the rule needs to be tweaked so that it's a tougher decision whether to stupefy a unit (or not) outside of the occasions where you're being pinned/blinded/concussed. Unless you're a Dreadnought/a unit with fearless that desperately needs the 5+++/an absurdly rare hypothetical, the answer to "stupefy?" will always be "no".

[The Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

Yeah I agree, and I suspect the people making that argument either don't actually play the game or are overreacting to others themselves incorrectly claiming that the rule has no merits whatsoever. It's not some hidden gem - Lords of Profligacy/Stupefied is exactly what it looks like. There are going to be occasions where it's incredibly impactful and a scoring unit avoids being pinned and wins you the game, or a charging unit is able to make it into combat with a disordered charge instead of getting pinned by overwatch.

That's what I found odd. The person in question claimed to play a lot of EC, and claimed that Hereticus was underrated if you knew how to play "core" EC.
He argued that the psych thing was really that big because it allowed units to "move where you want them to and stay there".
I can't imagine morale/objective squatting being this significant, but this guy clearly plays enough.

[Marshal Loss]

8 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

The person in question claimed to play a lot of EC, and claimed that Hereticus was underrated if you knew how to play "core" EC.

 

While you seem to be paraphrasing the person in question, if somebody argues that people who disagree with them 'don't know how to play core EC' then they seem more than a little childish. Whether or not Hereticus is underrated is a matter of opinion. 

 

Being able to guarantee that a unit won't run when shot at is useful, but it does not mean you are running an army that is functionally immune to psychology. It hasn't come up as a deciding factor in games very often for me in contrast with Flawless Execution's consistent benefits game after game, but it absolutely has utility. The problem is that we trade a wide range of significant combat bonuses to get that benefit, and there are already various characters items and traits that help to mitigate morale problems which everybody has access to.

 

What the person who believes that 'Legiones Hereticus is Broken Mirror on crack' omits is that while being Stupefied will keep us on an objective when we're shot at, it makes it a lot harder for us to actually defend objectives when enemies come to push us off them. If we're Stupefied then we can't react to a charge with overwatch or hold the line, we still have to make morale checks in the assault phase, and enemies charging us don't take an initiative penalty for charging us through difficult terrain. So we're often still relying on things we already had access to from the old ruleset like Broken Mirror to "move where we want to and stay there", and now we're worse at actually winning fights and pushing enemies off objectives ourselves.

 

Would be very interested in what experiences fellow EC players on this forum have had with the rules, if they've used Hereticus since it came out. It's late now, but I'll type one of my lists up later.

 

I don't think the trait is a great reflection of late heresy EC lore, but give us access to a couple of (non-Fulgrim) corrupted rites, a Hereticus EC consul, and more widespread access to Kakophoni and augments to across an army to compensate for the loss of 3CE, and I'd be a lot happier regardless of how strong those options are. My hope is that what we have now was basically just something they whipped up to accompany Fulgrim Transfigured's release (seeing as e.g. they took the Phoenix Warden and the ability to take Phoenix Command Squads away from us but didn't replace them with anything) and the intent is to flesh it out when they get around to more Legiones Hereticus releases, but I guess we'll see with time.

Edited March 26 by Marshal Loss

[The Scorpion]

11 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

 

 

Would be very interested in what experiences fellow EC players on this forum have had with the rules, if they've used Hereticus since it came out. It's late now, but I'll type one of my lists up later.

 

I don't think the trait is a great reflection of late heresy EC lore, but give us access to a couple of (non-Fulgrim) corrupted rites, a Hereticus EC consul, and more widespread access to Kakophoni and augments to across an army to compensate for the loss of 3CE, and I'd be a lot happier regardless of how strong those options are. My hope is that what we have now was basically just something they whipped up to accompany Fulgrim Transfigured's release (seeing as e.g. they took the Phoenix Warden and the ability to take Phoenix Command Squads away from us but didn't replace them with anything) and the intent is to flesh it out when they get around to more Legiones Hereticus releases, but I guess we'll see with time.

 

Boy I sure hope so. Beyond their obvious pitfalls, the Hereticus rules just feel... unweildy as they currently stand. A lot of numerous-but-low-impact rules interactions help it give that effect. They sorta remind of the bookkeeping done by Dark Angels players, exept that the DA at least can make solid combos without having to scratch their heads.

[The Scorpion]

So, the Brotherhood of the Phoenix is all about spamming champions. Now, when champions get in a challenge, their unit gains Fearless.

Could this be used to bump "Stupefied" rolls from 6+ to 5+? Or does the whole shooting phase activation condition screws that up?

[Marshal Loss]

Yes. Fearless is essentially a +1 modifier to the Stupefied roll that in this case will apply to the unit only when the Champion is in a challenge, and only for the duration of the assault phase. This means you have to be Stupefied when combat begins as there is no way to activate it unless your opponent resolves a shooting attack against you, and if your opponent declines the challenge then you don't get Fearless and the accompanying +1 modifier.

[Brother Kraskor]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:20 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

My hope is that what we have now was basically just something they whipped up to accompany Fulgrim Transfigured's release (seeing as e.g. they took the Phoenix Warden and the ability to take Phoenix Command Squads away from us but didn't replace them with anything) and the intent is to flesh it out when they get around to more Legiones Hereticus releases, but I guess we'll see with time.

 

I really hope so too...