HH 2.0 The Steppes of Chogoris: Vth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the White Scars in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[major_panic]

Well, I haven't yet looked at the leaks in detail, but the general feeling I'm getting from other groups is that bikes are significantly underpowered compared to where they are... which is sad for those of us who've gone all-in on the vroom. I do, however, like the look of a squad of ten Karaoghlanlar accompanying a Stormseer - I think that'll do some work if carefully positioned and used.

[Meduson]

Any fellow Khans had experience yet with 2.0 rules? Seems like most people online have been bemoaning the nerfing of jetbikes/Chog Bros but have seen a few who have actually played it so far say they enjoyed it. 

 

I have a decent amount of jetbikes but generally my lists are dominated by assault marines and infantry so am sort of interested to see how the new rules fit in. Thinking recon marines or seekers?

[caladancid]

I might be a bit crazy, but I am thinking of Qin Xa with a 5 man Keshig squad in a Storm Eagle as the HQ core of a Chogorian Brotherhood list. Normally I would not take just one of anything, but man it would be pretty cool to have that as a mobile linebreaker if the bikes/jetbikes get bogged down.

[The Scorpion]

I would never be able to do that. It irks me to leave lots of empty space on a transport. Dunno why.

[caladancid]

2 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

I would never be able to do that. It irks me to leave lots of empty space on a transport. Dunno why.

Ha, yeah usually me too, but in this case it seems the best option.

[CCE1981]

I know the typical HH White Scars army is bike and speeder heavy, but I am more interested in a fast moving Pride of the Legion force?  Running mostly Tartaros Terminators, taking Cataphractii only as the Compulsory to sit on objectives, if I understand things correctly the Sergeants can take Power Glaives.  The Heavy Support Choice would probably need to be Leviathans, 2x Sagyar Mazan and a unit if Contemptors as Elites.  I am thinking the Dreadnoughts are the primary anti-tank in the army.  I really like the idea, hopefully a surprisingly fast army.

[newmajorpanic]

I really want to use Tsolmon Khan in a force, but I'm not sure how to bubblewrap him. Currently I'm thinking a squad of Vets or just a classic command squad - anyone have any thoughts?

[Brofist]

Command squad- either on bikes or on foot, or terminators. I dunno about vets

[Meduson]

Now that we've had a few weeks of play, anyone have any general experiences to share on the Scars? Seems like the Chog Bro panic wasn't nearly as people predicted considering there were a few full bike armies at the Warhammer World event that ran winning records. 

 

I am going to try some games this weekend with and without bikes. Since Javelins seem to be strong, I think Kyzagans will be pretty powerful and want to try those out. Thoughts?

[Brofist]

I'm a new traitor scars player, so I never experienced them in 1.0. The bike nerf does seem gnarly, but ignoring how bikes were in 1.0, in 2.0 Chog Bro still seems very good. Bikes are pretty well balanced compared to other options, though you do get less of them. I'm working on a Sagyar Mazan ZM force that seems pretty damn gnarly. Won't get any game time until this fall, unfortunately.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Meduson well the Warhammer world event had progressive scoring on every mission and 4 game turns. Being able to get to and score the objectives (and contest obviously) with most of your units, with less turns to make up score, every game, is good. 

@Brofist outriders are a really hard sell, even in the vacuum of 2nd. 85 for 3 wounds at STR and t4 with twin bolters and chainswords+pistol. 5 more points gets a stock javelin; 20 more gets you sky hunters. Both units can get frankly better ranged options.

If you really want the spatha bikes, I'd say a command squad is the best way to have them; 115 for 2+ armour, line, 2 wounds and WS 5. And cheaper melee weapons.

 

 

[Brofist]

You know for me there are outriders and there are Chog Bro outriders. Agreed that outriders compete with jetbikes even here (though in ZM you have to go with bikes). Command squads on bikes also do melee way better, full stop. This said, I find that both sky hunters and outriders are basically relentless special weapon squads. Having the option to take them over basic troops, and the ability to spam them and their special weapons at the cost of surviveability, can certainly work. Bikes of all flavors are also one of the best places to put a telepathy stormsear. Certainly you're most likely gonna take jetbikes, but a unit of scoring outflanking/scouting outriders can have a spot imo.

Would love for them to be better of course :)

Edited August 2, 2022 by Brofist

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh they're definitely special/heavy weapons platforms, but man does it hurt me to think about outriders. Sky seekers are basically the better choice in normal games imo; 10 points more per model for double the durability, more than double the ranged output, more speed and the anti-grav fun.

Maybe you could do a mob of charnable melee outriders for objective clearing, idk lol.

 

 

[Meduson]

@SkimaskMohawkThat's actually great to hear, I didn't know the missions were formatted like that. Hopefully more missions are released in that vein, helpful for everyone I think

 

Outriders are what they are I guess. I always liked the models but only have jetbikes. Most of my list has always been anchored by 30+ assault marines which seem to have gotten a bit of a buff from chainsword/legion movement buff which is nice to have.

[SkimaskMohawk]

36 minutes ago, Meduson said:

@SkimaskMohawkThat's actually great to hear, I didn't know the missions were formatted like that. Hopefully more missions are released in that vein, helpful for everyone I think

 

Outriders are what they are I guess. I always liked the models but only have jetbikes. Most of my list has always been anchored by 30+ assault marines which seem to have gotten a bit of a buff from chainsword/legion movement buff which is nice to have.

Well the core missions are horrible, so any improvement on those is a positive. I'm just not a fan of progressive scoring, as the games it creates are very different to endgame scoring and can result in the 8th+ edition "well it's turn 3 and I can't catch up, might as well call it" syndrome.

Outriders are such nice models, but their cost and role have always made them hard to justify outside of 3 or so.

And unfortunately, the white scars bonus gets overwritten by active jump packs, as things that "set" a characteristic to a new level override any other bonuses. Page 147 of the rules explains it better. I was personally hoping for the final version of the rules to let the scars get around that.

[Brofist]

Good lord the price on jet bike command squads. ~ +300 points for a full squad. 200 points more than just going with bikes. Besides .pdf units this is probably the most overpriced wargear option in the book right now imo.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A lot of the bike and jetbike stuff (and scars in general) read as if one of the designers got absolutely mangled by a scars list in 1st and never actually built to counter it, but instead took it out on the archetype lol.

Triple the price for 2" more movement, heavy bolter and anti-grav (which forces you to rely on shroud instead of cover) ain't realistic. You can hop over intervening models, but it's not like ruins block movement, and scars at least can take a warlord trait to mitigate dangerous. 

[lansalt]

I have a bunch of SM bikes and the WS character from the DW Cassius Kill Team box. I was wondering how effective would be a praetor with the Born to the Saddle trait plus a bike command squad. And which other ICs would be the best to attach to them? stormseer (with powers to break enemy reactions), an apothecary for the FNP, or even a techmarine with a graviton gun?

[Brofist]

I don't think you need the born in the saddle trait, but its your call. A preator and delegatus with a command squad on bikes would be solid. Personally, that's all you need. I don't like to overspend on my deathstars so I don't really think you need other characters. Maybe an apothacary or something.

Regarding the stormseer, I know telepathy is the new hotness, but I've been playing with it myself. Its good, but you don't want it in a melee unit. You want it in a shooting unit. So don't put it into this command squad unless you have some game plan.

[lansalt]

Well, using stormseers to disable enemy reactions to a melee deathstar charge seems like a reasonable game plan.

[Meduson]

On 8/3/2022 at 9:59 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Well the core missions are horrible, so any improvement on those is a positive. I'm just not a fan of progressive scoring, as the games it creates are very different to endgame scoring and can result in the 8th+ edition "well it's turn 3 and I can't catch up, might as well call it" syndrome.

Outriders are such nice models, but their cost and role have always made them hard to justify outside of 3 or so.

And unfortunately, the white scars bonus gets overwritten by active jump packs, as things that "set" a characteristic to a new level override any other bonuses. Page 147 of the rules explains it better. I was personally hoping for the final version of the rules to let the scars get around that.

Is that jump pack bonus generally how it is read? That's not how I read the rule and there seems to be a fair amount of discussion about it in WS groups. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 minutes ago, Meduson said:

Is that jump pack bonus generally how it is read? That's not how I read the rule and there seems to be a fair amount of discussion about it in WS groups. 

Idk about how other people generally read it, but it's the actual interaction and is pretty unambiguous. WS give +1 move, JP set move to 12; per the rules the +1 is ignored.

That being said, we're discovering that the rules have changed between print runs and editions, so check the wording under "multiple modifiers" on page 147. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I was page-turning and came upon the Golden Keshig unit.  That looks like a nasty surprise lance attack.  Might be good for a WS allied detachment to accompany my Raven Guard.  

[Brofist]

Without an invuln save, my take is that Golden Keshig really want a chaplain to help them take advantage of those lance attacks. They do not want to be stuck in combat, but they make excellent hard target hunters.