HH 2.0 The Phalanx: VIIth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Imperial Fists in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[Scammel]

I think the small price hike for Warders has placed them firmly in "go all in or not at all" territory for me - they seem priced in the context of a full-on Stone Gauntlet list, where they're very tough to chew through and can do a great job of holding objectives with Line, Heart of the Legion and BS5 boltguns. Outside of that, they feel neither especially tough nor punchy at 20pts per model, with 'just' a 4++ and a single attack.

 

Edit: Another small thing to add - there's seemingly nothing preventing a Castellan from being the Warlord. For smaller lists, this guy can happily objective-camp with some mates behind the new, cheaper defence line, hitting on 2s with rending Autocannon and rerolling 1s to hit.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Scammel

[Bung]

You can still add an Apothecary and still get a bonus with Rann outside of Stone Gauntlet.

[General Zodd]

Hi guys, apologies if this isn’t the right place for this question, but just getting started with IF’s for 2.0 and trying to get ahead of the game with some existing models! I’ve built and painted my first 5 Breachers as just regular bolter guys, now I’m doing the other half of the squad.

 

So, I’m down to deciding about extras like graviton/Lascutter/meltaguns/all bolters, the Vexila, nuncio vox and kit for the sgt. I’m putting a nuncio vox on anyway, cos I think it looks cool, but;

 

1) are Vexilas worth taking?

 

As for the special weapons, I’m considering magnetising the weapons, but it’s going to be a pain as they’re not that big.

 

2) Are there any weapon options that I just shouldn’t bother with, and are there any that you think are auto-take? Should I just glue the Graviton guns on and be done with it, or are bolters too good on IF’s to upgrade them?

 

3) I’m assuming this unit will be more of a fire support unit than one getting too stuck in, so is it worth giving the sgt a combat weapon? A chainsword would look cool, but should I be considering a Solar Gauntlet, power axe or something?

 

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Rejects of Anvilus]

So, ten man Warder squads in Rhino's with two special weapons and a matching combi-weapon. I reckon Melta is a good choice, but what do others think?

[Slips]

11 hours ago, spinitron said:

So, ten man Warder squads in Rhino's with two special weapons and a matching combi-weapon. I reckon Melta is a good choice, but what do others think?

I would invest into a more robust transport for them, tbh. Rhinos are fine if your tight on points but are still made of, effectively, paper and if youre not using a RoW like Hammerfall to just deepstrike them, then youd want something to have good odds at getting them where you want them to be.

For me, it'd be Termites or Land Raiders in that case.

[Rejects of Anvilus]

1 hour ago, Slips said:

I would invest into a more robust transport for them, tbh. Rhinos are fine if your tight on points but are still made of, effectively, paper and if youre not using a RoW like Hammerfall to just deepstrike them, then youd want something to have good odds at getting them where you want them to be.

For me, it'd be Termites or Land Raiders in that case.

My current plan is two squads in rhinos providing a bit of mobile anti-tank and objective grabbing, and a larger squad with apothecary in a Spartan for attacking. Maybe not the best but for Stone Gauntlet it’s a cheaper option than Land Raiders. Sadly Termites are still not an option as far as i am aware. 

[Slips]

In that case, at least get the Rhino a Searchlight so that if Night Fighting ever comes up you can use them to illuminate targets of choice if you arent/cant take augury scanners on the units that would want them.

 

On 5/30/2022 at 6:38 PM, General Zodd said:

Hi guys, apologies if this isn’t the right place for this question, but just getting started with IF’s for 2.0 and trying to get ahead of the game with some existing models! I’ve built and painted my first 5 Breachers as just regular bolter guys, now I’m doing the other half of the squad.

 

So, I’m down to deciding about extras like graviton/Lascutter/meltaguns/all bolters, the Vexila, nuncio vox and kit for the sgt. I’m putting a nuncio vox on anyway, cos I think it looks cool, but;

 

1) are Vexilas worth taking?

 

As for the special weapons, I’m considering magnetising the weapons, but it’s going to be a pain as they’re not that big.

 

2) Are there any weapon options that I just shouldn’t bother with, and are there any that you think are auto-take? Should I just glue the Graviton guns on and be done with it, or are bolters too good on IF’s to upgrade them?

 

3) I’m assuming this unit will be more of a fire support unit than one getting too stuck in, so is it worth giving the sgt a combat weapon? A chainsword would look cool, but should I be considering a Solar Gauntlet, power axe or something?

 

Thanks for any thoughts!

1) For any unit: Vexillas, yes, very important. Nuncios too, if Night Fighting is on to ignore the -1LD penalty.

2) Do not bother with the lascutter, imho. Gravitons are of questionable value; imho now that armored ceramite is gone meltaguns are a better option due to not being Heavy.

Bolters are bolters. While being IF means we hit more frequently with them and other Auto Weapons like Autocannons, they still remain bolters.

3) Theyre, honestly, going to be more of a "Sit on an objective and not die" unit than anything else. So, if you have the points, a power fist on the sgt is ok so that if they get charged you can at least have a good chance of killing the opposing squads sergeant.

 

The Problem with regular breachers for IF is that Phalanx Warders are so much better that I have a hard time finding reasons to take them over PWs other than "I want to".

[Scammel]

A handful more observations since actually getting books in my hands and listening out for the reactions of others:

• Rann's Warlord Trait obviously makes him the ideal pick for any Stone Gauntlet list of reasonable size, but for smaller games there's a very mean alternative - a Praetor with a boarding shield and master-crafted hammer. He comes out at 5pts more than Rann and doesn't buff Warders across the army, but he packs the same re-rollable 3++ with far nastier offensive stats, capable of inflicting 8 S8 AP2 wounds in a round if charged. It's niche, but if you're playing against Traitors he becomes innately WS7 if Solar Marshal is chosen, going up to 8 if charged; less 'ties up a lesser Primarch for a couple of rounds' and more 'actually makes Lorgar think twice'.
• Dorn is, to most practical intents and purposes, unkillable. I've seen some Primarch vs Primarch duel stats and his auric armour and seven wounds result in a top five placing among his brothers, near-as-dammit on par with Russ and Guilliman. If he has a 3++ from an attached Warder squad, Dorn is the best Primarch duellist in the game, excepting Horus. Of course, 'even' Primarch duels are very much unlikely theoretical scenarios, but if Dorn is defeating these threats through sheer tankiness there's not much else that has a hope of putting him down. Storm's Teeth is effective against most targets, his Sire buffs are very good and he's one of few Primarchs able to deep strike. Dorn's great. 
• Unless the meta develops in a very particular way it seems like it could otherwise not be more hostile to Templar Brethren. Terminators and Dreadnoughts of all flavours look powerful and fun across the piece and the Brethren are unfortunately relying on rending to break through these targets. Templar Assault is a painfully cool RoW, but unless something like Hammer of Olympia Tactical spam is a very real thing these will remain a token fun unit in my lists, not a build-around.
• Speaking of, for all the sexy stubborn, battle-hardened or fear-inducing elites out there, none of them seem as ultimately effective as S10 solarite gauntlets on 3++ Terminators. This is again more the realm of hypothetical duels, but it's not irrelevant that gauntlets flat-out ignore the damage mitigation tricks of Justaerin and Deathshroud while also wounding Dreadnoughts on a 2+. I can't wait to see the revamped Huscarls, which will surely be in contention for the most powerful infantry in the game, if not the most cost-effective.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Scammel

[Slips]

I need a Sanity Check bros.

 

Legion Techmarines: via Covenant, the unit they join grants the techmarine all their USRs and Unit Types. Techmarines can take a Boarding Shield for a 5++ and a Cyber-Familiar to boost that 5++ to a 4++

You can then attach him to a squad of Phalanx Warders. He now has all their USRs as well (Lockstep and Shield Wall, among others) so when in b2b with other warders, he now has a 3++.

You then take Stone Gauntlet which allows invulns to be rerolled and also grants the Phalanx Warders Line (scoring) and Heart of the Legion (5+++ on an objective or +1 if they already have it) and, by extension, the Techmarine.

Attach an apothecary to the unit. They also gain all the units USRs but they cant take boarding shields; oh well.

The Techmarine, attached to the Warders & apothecary, sitting on an objective, now has a 2+ (rerollable vs Blasts and Templates), 3++ (rerollable because SG) and 4+++ (Because Apothecary FNP on an objective).

Fafnir Rann, too, can pull this off but it means you can do this for ALL Phalanx Warder squads in your army.

 

Can anyone double check this. Similarly, this works for ANY legion, btw, IF just make it a bit more insane because of the 3++ rerollable. But under standard conditions you can attach a 2+/4++ Techmarine with the Heavy Sub type to any unit who would gain all of that units USRs as well as their Sub-Types (so you could have a Heavy & Light techmarine in a squad of scouts, for example.)

[SmorcInc]

29 minutes ago, Slips said:

I need a Sanity Check bros.

 

Legion Techmarines: via Covenant, the unit they join grants the techmarine all their USRs and Unit Types. Techmarines can take a Boarding Shield for a 5++ and a Cyber-Familiar to boost that 5++ to a 4++

You can then attach him to a squad of Phalanx Warders. He now has all their USRs as well (Lockstep and Shield Wall, among others) so when in b2b with other warders, he now has a 3++.

You then take Stone Gauntlet which allows invulns to be rerolled and also grants the Phalanx Warders Line (scoring) and Heart of the Legion (5+++ on an objective or +1 if they already have it) and, by extension, the Techmarine.

Attach an apothecary to the unit. They also gain all the units USRs but they cant take boarding shields; oh well.

The Techmarine, attached to the Warders & apothecary, sitting on an objective, now has a 2+ (rerollable vs Blasts and Templates), 3++ (rerollable because SG) and 4+++ (Because Apothecary FNP on an objective).

Fafnir Rann, too, can pull this off but it means you can do this for ALL Phalanx Warder squads in your army.

 

Can anyone double check this. Similarly, this works for ANY legion, btw, IF just make it a bit more insane because of the 3++ rerollable. But under standard conditions you can attach a 2+/4++ Techmarine with the Heavy Sub type to any unit who would gain all of that units USRs as well as their Sub-Types (so you could have a Heavy & Light techmarine in a squad of scouts, for example.)

Well main problem with that is you're paying 75 points for that single 4++ wound, outside of Stone Gauntlet for 3++ rerolling there's not much reason to pay that much for a single Iron Halo tier save.

[Slips]

Yes, its expensive but as a distraction carnifex, not too costly. Sure, its 1W at 75Pts but, youre also getting a Power Axe and Servo Arm (power fist) out of the deal at the same time in the event he gets into CC

[newmajorpanic]

2 hours ago, Slips said:

Yes, its expensive but as a distraction carnifex, not too costly. Sure, its 1W at 75Pts but, youre also getting a Power Axe and Servo Arm (power fist) out of the deal at the same time in the event he gets into CC

I love this idea just for how hilarious it is. And it's reasonably in character, too.

 

Can I ask the hive mind about the new Castellan consul? What are people thinking? At the moment, I'm liking the idea of an autocannon Castellan with a 10-man HSS armed with either autocannons or missile launchers, possibly riding around in a Rhino, with an attached Apothecary. That's a pretty solid anchor point for objectives, and the missile launchers add some versatility (pinning).

[Slips]

25 minutes ago, newmajorpanic said:

I love this idea just for how hilarious it is. And it's reasonably in character, too.

 

Can I ask the hive mind about the new Castellan consul? What are people thinking? At the moment, I'm liking the idea of an autocannon Castellan with a 10-man HSS armed with either autocannons or missile launchers, possibly riding around in a Rhino, with an attached Apothecary. That's a pretty solid anchor point for objectives, and the missile launchers add some versatility (pinning).

Ah, but what if, in a Hammerfall list, you took a Castellan with Assault Cannon and HSS Squads with Assault Cannons and just, deepstruck them somewhere.

 

BRRRT of the heavens, some might call it.

 

That said, him making HSS Squads line is pretty good since it lets you just park squads on home objectives to hold among other things.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Slips

[SmorcInc]

The Castellan unfortunately doesn't seem to make the Assault Cannon get an extra shot, but he's nice for line heavy support squads.

[Slips]

18 minutes ago, SmorcInc said:

The Castellan unfortunately doesn't seem to make the Assault Cannon get an extra shot, but he's nice for line heavy support squads.

He does not, unfortunately, but since the assault cannon is Assault 4 instead of Heavy 4 it does mean non-relentless models with it can just, walk around and shoot and charge no problem.

[Bung]

Not a fluffy idea but you can have a Librarian in Stone Gauntlet giving a 4++ against Shooting Attacks if he doesnt move.

So just buff the whole squad to a 3++ rerollable against Shooting in Stone Gauntlet.

[Scammel]

13 hours ago, Slips said:

I need a Sanity Check bros.

 

Legion Techmarines: via Covenant, the unit they join grants the techmarine all their USRs and Unit Types. Techmarines can take a Boarding Shield for a 5++ and a Cyber-Familiar to boost that 5++ to a 4++

You can then attach him to a squad of Phalanx Warders. He now has all their USRs as well (Lockstep and Shield Wall, among others) so when in b2b with other warders, he now has a 3++.

You then take Stone Gauntlet which allows invulns to be rerolled and also grants the Phalanx Warders Line (scoring) and Heart of the Legion (5+++ on an objective or +1 if they already have it) and, by extension, the Techmarine.

Attach an apothecary to the unit. They also gain all the units USRs but they cant take boarding shields; oh well.

The Techmarine, attached to the Warders & apothecary, sitting on an objective, now has a 2+ (rerollable vs Blasts and Templates), 3++ (rerollable because SG) and 4+++ (Because Apothecary FNP on an objective).

Fafnir Rann, too, can pull this off but it means you can do this for ALL Phalanx Warder squads in your army.

 

Can anyone double check this. Similarly, this works for ANY legion, btw, IF just make it a bit more insane because of the 3++ rerollable. But under standard conditions you can attach a 2+/4++ Techmarine with the Heavy Sub type to any unit who would gain all of that units USRs as well as their Sub-Types (so you could have a Heavy & Light techmarine in a squad of scouts, for example.)

Honestly, this seems like one of the milder things you can do with Warders. I've already mentioned the 3++ rerolling Praetor and 3++ Dorn, but Sigismund can also take advantage of it (even if his buffs lend him a little better to Tartaros or Templar Brethren given they can actually sweep). Frustrated with the relatively low number of attacks Warders put out? A Cataphract Centurion can bring along a pair of claws and still have a healthy 3++ with no need for a shield. Alternatively, a Forge Lord can pull off the full-fat 3++ reroll while actually having decent kit and offensive output, and not eating up a Praetor slot. I'm still firmly of the view that Warders need the Gauntlet to be cost effective in and of themselves, but you could nary ask for a better bodyguard unit.

 

I like the Castellan quite a lot; scoring units seem to be at a premium and I'm sure other legions are quite jealous of IF not needing a token Tactical squad to babysit home objectives. Both the auto- and assault cannon have their uses depending on whether you intend to operate back- or midfield, and for smaller games I think it's a decent build-around warlord choice with Warden of Inwit.

[Bung]

@Scammel

I think Warders are still ok as a Unit.

They got cheaper with the Axes and kept their Bolter.

The only thing i muss are the old Breacher Charges.

[Scammel]

Oh, another observation - Sigismund's always-challenge rule is actually so restrictive I'd call it crippling in many circumstances. If the opposing squad has a sergeant (and they will, given it's free on every squad and will usually be the last model removed before gunners) that's all he'll be killing in the first round of combat. Against Chosen Warriors he will never kill more than a single model per round, and while he butchers most multi-wound models he's not actually that well-suited to taking on Dreads, what with their high Toughness and decent invuns. I was riding a pretty hefty hype train with Sigismund, but perversely I think his main selling point now is as a reliable deep strike charge enabler with his +2.

[Slips]

10 minutes ago, Scammel said:

Oh, another observation - Sigismund's always-challenge rule is actually so restrictive I'd call it crippling in many circumstances. If the opposing squad has a sergeant (and they will, given it's free on every squad and will usually be the last model removed before gunners) that's all he'll be killing in the first round of combat. Against Chosen Warriors he will never kill more than a single model per round, and while he butchers most multi-wound models he's not actually that well-suited to taking on Dreads, what with their high Toughness and decent invuns. I was riding a pretty hefty hype train with Sigismund, but perversely I think his main selling point now is as a reliable deep strike charge enabler with his +2.

The thing is though, if he kills whatever he challenges in his first attack, all the remaining ones, at least, convert into Combat Resolution in your favor. So, unless theyre fearless, you can probably get a nice +2 to +3 to combat res on top of anything else.

The Problem occurs when hes in a challenge, kills them and then you have no remaining squad for siggy and any survivors in the other squad can freely punch him.

[Scammel]

A couple of quick notes from the pdf updates:

• The Aetos Dios comes with a very hefty discount relative to a similarly-equipped Gunship, but the cost and exclusivity mean it remains what it was - a fun toy for a huge Dorn list and not a credible option for most games.
• Huscarls are about as great as we thought they would be, with battled-hardened probably being something of a sideways shift rather than an up- or down-grade compared to a WS buff; the latter is almost always useful, but the former is excellent in some specific situations (albeit not against gravis fists, boo). Warders still feel like the optimum choice for proper deathstar configurations given how well their bonuses lend themselves to characters, but Huscarls have salt-inducing match-ups against other elites.

[ac4155]

Couple of questions as a recent Imperial Fist convert.

I’m considering going Storm Gauntlet and running Fann in it. From a modelling & WYSISYG perspective, I prefer the look of the model and it’s overall silhouette without the Storm Shield on his back, so was considering leaving it off the model. Do people think this will cause any issues with people claiming he doesn’t get the shield bonus?  

For my first Contemptor Dreadnought, I’m considering going double twin-linked Lascanon’s to act as anti-tank support. Any other recommendations on this approach? Looking around, it seems most people tend to go melta-claw & twin-linked Lascanon rather than doubling up?

Edited July 2, 2022 by ac4155

[SmorcInc]

On 6/28/2022 at 3:48 PM, Slips said:

The thing is though, if he kills whatever he challenges in his first attack, all the remaining ones, at least, convert into Combat Resolution in your favor. So, unless theyre fearless, you can probably get a nice +2 to +3 to combat res on top of anything else.

The Problem occurs when hes in a challenge, kills them and then you have no remaining squad for siggy and any survivors in the other squad can freely punch him.

Doesn't stubborn also make siggy not that spooky?

[Scammel]

2 hours ago, ac4155 said:

Couple of questions as a recent Imperial Fist convert.

I’m considering going Storm Gauntlet and running Fann in it. From a modelling & WYSISYG perspective, I prefer the look of the model and it’s overall silhouette without the Storm Shield on his back, so was considering leaving it off the model. Do people think this will cause any issues with people claiming he doesn’t get the shield bonus?  

For my first Contemptor Dreadnought, I’m considering going double twin-linked Lascanon’s to act as anti-tank support. Any other recommendations on this approach? Looking around, it seems most people tend to go melta-claw & twin-linked Lascanon rather than doubling up?

To the first question - I quite agree on your preferences and no one with two reasonable brain cells to rub together will take any issue (though I'd perhaps flag with opponents that 'this guy is tanky', lest they miss out on that visual signifier).

 

Re. the Contemptor, I'd be loathe to run one without a fist. The Deredeo is a shootier platform for not many points more, and part of the reason folks are raving about Contemptors at the moment is because their fists pack a very mean brutal (3), which is absurd for multi-wound units to face. Both meltas and lascannons seem popular of late for this dread-heavy meta, but I'm also considering going all in on the double-fist, double assault cannon approach for midfield death.