HH 2.0 The Gladitorial Pits: XIIth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the World Eaters in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[TompiQ]

Alright, with the impending release of both HH 2.0 and the World Eaters for 9th I'm looking to get back into both, as an ascended daemon prince Angron is basically the grail of miniatures for me and it's bound to happen. Fingers crossed he gets rules in HH in daemon form as well.

 

But until then, I'll be running a Berserker Assault list with Angry Ron in his mortal form. I love the bump to a 2+, makes him that much more menacing when challenging just about every character on the field. Question is what delivery system would be preferred? An issue I see with Butchers is that he technically nullifies their Ravening Madmen advantage (-1 str) while retaining the disadvantage due to how the rule is worded. Would it be more effective to just put him in say a tactical/despoiler blob, or with standard cataphractii (or even Tartaros) terminators?

 

I'm also torn between a Spartan and a Kharybdis. When skimming the rules it appears to me that a turn one drop is no longer an option outside Drop Pod Assault though, meaning that putting him in a pod sacrifices any pre-turn 3 charge potential, probably making the Spartan the preferred option.

 

EDIT

 

Reading closer, I've changed my mind and will be going for the Kharybdis in a Drop Pod Assault list —all pods now arrive simultaneously, and units disembarking from an Assault Vehicle are allowed to CHARGE turn one! The one issue is that the dreadclaw is actually lacking the assault vehicle rule in the leaks, which I'm hoping is an omission... Imagine the glory of dropping Angron, a blob and a few dreads into enemy lines turn one...

Edited May 30, 2022 by TompiQ

[SmorcInc]

Alright, with the impending release of both HH 2.0 and the World Eaters for 9th I'm looking to get back into both, as an ascended daemon prince Angron is basically the grail of miniatures for me and it's bound to happen. Fingers crossed he gets rules in HH in daemon form as well.

 

But until then, I'll be running a Berserker Assault list with Angry Ron in his mortal form. I love the bump to a 2+, makes him that much more menacing when challenging just about every character on the field. Question is what delivery system would be preferred? An issue I see with Butchers is that he technically nullifies their Ravening Madmen advantage (-1 str) while retaining the disadvantage due to how the rule is worded. Would it be more effective to just put him in say a tactical/despoiler blob, or with standard cataphractii (or even Tartaros) terminators?

Ron doesn't axe the Ravening Madmen bonus, he just applies the same debuff. Personally I think if you're going to take Ron it'll be with Despoilers or Red Butchers. Despoilers benefit a ton from the fearless and the hatred bonuses, so even if you give up the ability to take your shooting phase charge reaction you are at least getting something out of it. The enemy treating you as WS3 is less painful too since that's only painful against WS3, 4, and 6. If you took Ron in say a Rampager unit then he'd be giving WS 4 +2 to hit against them which is a big ouchie.

With Red Butchers you're giving up on Ron's bonuses, but not taking on his weakness. Plus Ron's ability to challenge any character (so anyone but chosen warriors) lets you pick out the powerfists that would still crush your unit pretty easily.

 

Funnily enough by the way, because Angron changes the majority WS of your unit to being treated as WS3, that doesn't work in Challenges. Challenges of course only care about the WS of the models in the challenge, rather than the majority of said unit. It took me a solid 10 minutes to figure that one out which was a shame.

 

That being said, I'm thinking about moving Red Butchers towards more Lightning Claws.  The loss of a FNP without Angron, the charge rerolls, the rerolling 1s to wound on the charge, and the push of most elite units that Red Butchers were strong into towards 2w will probably lead to a rise in S8 weapons which Red Butchers get demolished by. Claws help get around this by swinging an extra time at I4 and with Rending you can still vaguely threaten terminators with them. Especially now that attacks in a challenge don't seem to spill over into the rest of the unit.

[TompiQ]

 

 

Alright, with the impending release of both HH 2.0 and the World Eaters for 9th I'm looking to get back into both, as an ascended daemon prince Angron is basically the grail of miniatures for me and it's bound to happen. Fingers crossed he gets rules in HH in daemon form as well.

 

But until then, I'll be running a Berserker Assault list with Angry Ron in his mortal form. I love the bump to a 2+, makes him that much more menacing when challenging just about every character on the field. Question is what delivery system would be preferred? An issue I see with Butchers is that he technically nullifies their Ravening Madmen advantage (-1 str) while retaining the disadvantage due to how the rule is worded. Would it be more effective to just put him in say a tactical/despoiler blob, or with standard cataphractii (or even Tartaros) terminators?

Ron doesn't axe the Ravening Madmen bonus, he just applies the same debuff. Personally I think if you're going to take Ron it'll be with Despoilers or Red Butchers. Despoilers benefit a ton from the fearless and the hatred bonuses, so even if you give up the ability to take your shooting phase charge reaction you are at least getting something out of it. The enemy treating you as WS3 is less painful too since that's only painful against WS3, 4, and 6. If you took Ron in say a Rampager unit then he'd be giving WS 4 +2 to hit against them which is a big ouchie.

With Red Butchers you're giving up on Ron's bonuses, but not taking on his weakness. Plus Ron's ability to challenge any character (so anyone but chosen warriors) lets you pick out the powerfists that would still crush your unit pretty easily.

 

Funnily enough by the way, because Angron changes the majority WS of your unit to being treated as WS3, that doesn't work in Challenges. Challenges of course only care about the WS of the models in the challenge, rather than the majority of said unit. It took me a solid 10 minutes to figure that one out which was a shame.

 

That being said, I'm thinking about moving Red Butchers towards more Lightning Claws. The loss of a FNP without Angron, the charge rerolls, the rerolling 1s to wound on the charge, and the push of most elite units that Red Butchers were strong into towards 2w will probably lead to a rise in S8 weapons which Red Butchers get demolished by. Claws help get around this by swinging an extra time at I4 and with Rending you can still vaguely threaten terminators with them. Especially now that attacks in a challenge don't seem to spill over into the rest of the unit.

Good take on the Butchers and claws, I reckon that's the strongest way to run them currently. They're blenders who don't really want to engage high str and durable targets.

 

Regarding Ravening Madmen, the rule states "striking a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule", and Angron does not have the rule itself. His Butcher's Nails apply the same drawback, but it's from a separate source and thus RAW he does invalidate the positive aspect of Ravening Madmen.

 

And to top that off, Hatred now has nothing in it that spreads its benefits to the rest of the squad. Chaplains specifically provide Hatred (Everything) to the unit they join meaning despoilers don't benefit from Angron's rule. But I agree that they're probably the better choice, as they provide cheap ablative wounds and volume of attacks while Angron can deal with more elite units with his ridiculous amount of mostly ID attacks. Heart of the Legion means they and Angron benefit from a 5+FNP when fighting on top of an objective too.

 

The take on his WS in challenges is correct though, and an amazing way to draw out dangerous weapons to keep his accompanying squad in good shape. Especially now that he tanks AP3 like a boss.

[SmorcInc]

 

 

Alright, with the impending release of both HH 2.0 and the World Eaters for 9th I'm looking to get back into both, as an ascended daemon prince Angron is basically the grail of miniatures for me and it's bound to happen. Fingers crossed he gets rules in HH in daemon form as well.

 

But until then, I'll be running a Berserker Assault list with Angry Ron in his mortal form. I love the bump to a 2+, makes him that much more menacing when challenging just about every character on the field. Question is what delivery system would be preferred? An issue I see with Butchers is that he technically nullifies their Ravening Madmen advantage (-1 str) while retaining the disadvantage due to how the rule is worded. Would it be more effective to just put him in say a tactical/despoiler blob, or with standard cataphractii (or even Tartaros) terminators?

Ron doesn't axe the Ravening Madmen bonus, he just applies the same debuff. Personally I think if you're going to take Ron it'll be with Despoilers or Red Butchers. Despoilers benefit a ton from the fearless and the hatred bonuses, so even if you give up the ability to take your shooting phase charge reaction you are at least getting something out of it. The enemy treating you as WS3 is less painful too since that's only painful against WS3, 4, and 6. If you took Ron in say a Rampager unit then he'd be giving WS 4 +2 to hit against them which is a big ouchie.

With Red Butchers you're giving up on Ron's bonuses, but not taking on his weakness. Plus Ron's ability to challenge any character (so anyone but chosen warriors) lets you pick out the powerfists that would still crush your unit pretty easily.

 

Funnily enough by the way, because Angron changes the majority WS of your unit to being treated as WS3, that doesn't work in Challenges. Challenges of course only care about the WS of the models in the challenge, rather than the majority of said unit. It took me a solid 10 minutes to figure that one out which was a shame.

 

That being said, I'm thinking about moving Red Butchers towards more Lightning Claws. The loss of a FNP without Angron, the charge rerolls, the rerolling 1s to wound on the charge, and the push of most elite units that Red Butchers were strong into towards 2w will probably lead to a rise in S8 weapons which Red Butchers get demolished by. Claws help get around this by swinging an extra time at I4 and with Rending you can still vaguely threaten terminators with them. Especially now that attacks in a challenge don't seem to spill over into the rest of the unit.

Good take on the Butchers and claws, I reckon that's the strongest way to run them currently. They're blenders who don't really want to engage high str and durable targets.

 

Regarding Ravening Madmen, the rule states "striking a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule", and Angron does not have the rule itself. His Butcher's Nails apply the same drawback, but it's from a separate source and thus RAW he does invalidate the positive aspect of Ravening Madmen.

 

And to top that off, Hatred now has nothing in it that spreads its benefits to the rest of the squad. Chaplains specifically provide Hatred (Everything) to the unit they join meaning despoilers don't benefit from Angron's rule. But I agree that they're probably the better choice, as they provide cheap ablative wounds and volume of attacks while Angron can deal with more elite units with his ridiculous amount of mostly ID attacks. Heart of the Legion means they and Angron benefit from a 5+FNP when fighting on top of an objective too.

 

The take on his WS in challenges is correct though, and an amazing way to draw out dangerous weapons to keep his accompanying squad in good shape. Especially now that he tanks AP3 like a boss.

I can't believe I missed so many things about the game, my bad.

 

Edit: do chosen warriors models count for Angrons extra challenges? Can't check atm and if they do that'd be excellent for Ron.

Edited May 31, 2022 by SmorcInc

[TompiQ]

 

 

 

Alright, with the impending release of both HH 2.0 and the World Eaters for 9th I'm looking to get back into both, as an ascended daemon prince Angron is basically the grail of miniatures for me and it's bound to happen. Fingers crossed he gets rules in HH in daemon form as well.

 

But until then, I'll be running a Berserker Assault list with Angry Ron in his mortal form. I love the bump to a 2+, makes him that much more menacing when challenging just about every character on the field. Question is what delivery system would be preferred? An issue I see with Butchers is that he technically nullifies their Ravening Madmen advantage (-1 str) while retaining the disadvantage due to how the rule is worded. Would it be more effective to just put him in say a tactical/despoiler blob, or with standard cataphractii (or even Tartaros) terminators?

Ron doesn't axe the Ravening Madmen bonus, he just applies the same debuff. Personally I think if you're going to take Ron it'll be with Despoilers or Red Butchers. Despoilers benefit a ton from the fearless and the hatred bonuses, so even if you give up the ability to take your shooting phase charge reaction you are at least getting something out of it. The enemy treating you as WS3 is less painful too since that's only painful against WS3, 4, and 6. If you took Ron in say a Rampager unit then he'd be giving WS 4 +2 to hit against them which is a big ouchie.

With Red Butchers you're giving up on Ron's bonuses, but not taking on his weakness. Plus Ron's ability to challenge any character (so anyone but chosen warriors) lets you pick out the powerfists that would still crush your unit pretty easily.

 

Funnily enough by the way, because Angron changes the majority WS of your unit to being treated as WS3, that doesn't work in Challenges. Challenges of course only care about the WS of the models in the challenge, rather than the majority of said unit. It took me a solid 10 minutes to figure that one out which was a shame.

 

That being said, I'm thinking about moving Red Butchers towards more Lightning Claws. The loss of a FNP without Angron, the charge rerolls, the rerolling 1s to wound on the charge, and the push of most elite units that Red Butchers were strong into towards 2w will probably lead to a rise in S8 weapons which Red Butchers get demolished by. Claws help get around this by swinging an extra time at I4 and with Rending you can still vaguely threaten terminators with them. Especially now that attacks in a challenge don't seem to spill over into the rest of the unit.

Good take on the Butchers and claws, I reckon that's the strongest way to run them currently. They're blenders who don't really want to engage high str and durable targets.

 

Regarding Ravening Madmen, the rule states "striking a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule", and Angron does not have the rule itself. His Butcher's Nails apply the same drawback, but it's from a separate source and thus RAW he does invalidate the positive aspect of Ravening Madmen.

 

And to top that off, Hatred now has nothing in it that spreads its benefits to the rest of the squad. Chaplains specifically provide Hatred (Everything) to the unit they join meaning despoilers don't benefit from Angron's rule. But I agree that they're probably the better choice, as they provide cheap ablative wounds and volume of attacks while Angron can deal with more elite units with his ridiculous amount of mostly ID attacks. Heart of the Legion means they and Angron benefit from a 5+FNP when fighting on top of an objective too.

 

The take on his WS in challenges is correct though, and an amazing way to draw out dangerous weapons to keep his accompanying squad in good shape. Especially now that he tanks AP3 like a boss.

I can't believe I missed so many things about the game, my bad.

 

Edit: do chosen warriors models count for Angrons extra challenges? Can't check atm and if they do that'd be excellent for Ron.

I mean, new ruleset and fresh leaks of over 700 pages of material, can't be expected to have everything under check already haha. I edited my first post like three times after posting just because I realized some of my ideas were invalidated in obscure parts of the new rules...

 

Regarding chosen warriors, they aren't characters which means Angron can't call them, but they can accept his challenges on behalf of as many characters as are called. So sadly not applicable. (played with the same thought earlier)

[SmorcInc]

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, new ruleset and fresh leaks of over 700 pages of material, can't be expected to have everything under check already haha. I edited my first post like three times after posting just because I realized some of my ideas were invalidated in obscure parts of the new rules...

 

Regarding chosen warriors, they aren't characters which means Angron can't call them, but they can accept his challenges on behalf of as many characters as are called. So sadly not applicable. (played with the same thought earlier)

 

Makes taking Angron into most duels a pretty bad idea since he'll usually challenge like 1-2 models, then the enemy primarch will kill like 4 of his. Wonder if that makes Rampagers or normal guards the move.

[TompiQ]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, new ruleset and fresh leaks of over 700 pages of material, can't be expected to have everything under check already haha. I edited my first post like three times after posting just because I realized some of my ideas were invalidated in obscure parts of the new rules...

 

Regarding chosen warriors, they aren't characters which means Angron can't call them, but they can accept his challenges on behalf of as many characters as are called. So sadly not applicable. (played with the same thought earlier)

Makes taking Angron into most duels a pretty bad idea since he'll usually challenge like 1-2 models, then the enemy primarch will kill like 4 of his. Wonder if that makes Rampagers or normal guards the move.

The enemy can still only challenge one target, so if you're up versus a Chosen Warrior blob you could simply have the sergeant of his accompanying squad accept it. But should he die it does turn into a sticky situation if Angron is challenge locked afterwards. That's a pretty strong point in favor of the Rampagers or a standard retinue over say despoilers, agreed.

[Redwunzgofasta]

Just a question about world eaters tactical squads… With the violence incarnate rule, do people think it’s decent value to have tactical marines with chain bayonets for 12 points, or do people think tactical marines with a chain axe for 15 points is a no brainier?

[SmorcInc]

Just a question about world eaters tactical squads… With the violence incarnate rule, do people think it’s decent value to have tactical marines with chain bayonets for 12 points, or do people think tactical marines with a chain axe for 15 points is a no brainier?

That depends on if you personally think having an extra attack is worth -1 to wound and 3 points. Personally I think it's worth doing but that can start getting pretty expensive fast. I also have been running despoilers though because they're cheap and I don't really want to shoot bolters most of the time.

[Redwunzgofasta]

Ah ok, there’s a -1 strength for taking the axe? I thought it was just an extra 3 points for an additional attack compared to the chain bayonet.

[SmorcInc]

Ah ok, there’s a -1 strength for taking the axe? I thought it was just an extra 3 points for an additional attack compared to the chain bayonet.

Ya know what you're right, it's S+1 not S+2. So really it's the 3 points for dual wielding or not. Personally I still think it's worth it if you can squeeze the points, in a 20 man that's 60 points for 20 extra attacks on the unit.

[temneb]

Where are we seeing the points values for everything? Are chain swords 3 points?

[Redwunzgofasta]

I don’t have the files saved but in state of the union (heresy) thread there were links posted to the playtest rules leaks. Chain bayonets are 2 points and chain axes are 5 points on tactical squads. 3 points difference for what amounts to an extra attack, as the chain axe and chain bayonet are the same except the chain bayonet is a 2 handed weapon.

[temneb]

Ahh. We have the option to get chain swords then upgrade our to axes for free. In the legion rules. So is chain sword prices at most.

[SmorcInc]

Ahh. We have the option to get chain swords then upgrade our to axes for free. In the legion rules. So is chain sword prices at most.

Yeah but I'm still more a fan of saving the 2-5ppm and just giving up on the bolter. Despoilers are just valuetown.

[temneb]

Free chain axes are win. If that's how despoilers work this ed. I'm going to have to change my tacs. I was just trying to understand what the 3 points was, do we know the cost of a chain sword on tacs, if bolter, bolt pistol and sword us an option? Otherwise I'm going to have to change my tac marines.

[SmorcInc]

Free chain axes are win. If that's how despoilers work this ed. I'm going to have to change my tacs. I was just trying to understand what the 3 points was, do we know the cost of a chain sword on tacs, if bolter, bolt pistol and sword us an option? Otherwise I'm going to have to change my tac marines.

Chainswords (free chainaxe after) are 5ppm, bayonets are 1ppm, chain-bayonets are 2ppm. Chainaxes are S+1 ap- shred, Bayonets are S+1 ap- two handed, and Chain Bayonets are S+1 ap- shred, two handed.

[temneb]

Chain sword is 5ppm? That's steep...

For us it's probably worth it, but not for just an extra attack.. When you could get, +1 str cheaper...

Edited June 2, 2022 by temneb

[SmorcInc]

Chain sword is 5ppm? That's steep...

For us it's probably worth it, but not for just an extra attack.. When you could get, +1 str cheaper...

Well what it actually is, is 5 points for a bolter. Despoiler units are pistol and chainsword (chainaxe) and cost the same but trade their bolter and fury of the legion (extra bolter shot when standing still) for spite of the legion (reroll wounds if you charge something that's fleeing, pinned, or has no character. Useless for chain weapons but you can take up to 5 power weapons and it buffs characters who join.

[TompiQ]

How are people going to run their Praetors? I'm torn between just going Khârn in a rampager blob vs say a praetor with MC Paragon Blade, Power Fist, Blood Hunger WL trait and Berseker upgrade together with some Red Butchers. That guy outputs 8 attacks on the charge, either S5ap2 at I5 with a 5+ murderous strike, or S8ap2 at I1. The life steal means he'll pretty easily get wounds up to 6 with that profile, although ID means I'd still be scared of anything with a fist. Ends up at 205 points, so roughly Khârn equivalent.

 

For smaller games, since I'm drop pod sold, I'd probably run PF+Chain Fist on the Devoured, dual lightning claws four butchers, and then cram them in a Dreadclaw. Simply send them at anything without a ton of S8+, and be gucci.

[SmorcInc]

How are people going to run their Praetors? I'm torn between just going Khârn in a rampager blob vs say a praetor with MC Paragon Blade, Power Fist, Blood Hunger WL trait and Berseker upgrade together with some Red Butchers. That guy outputs 8 attacks on the charge, either S5ap2 at I5 with a 5+ murderous strike, or S8ap2 at I1. The life steal means he'll pretty easily get wounds up to 6 with that profile, although ID means I'd still be scared of anything with a fist. Ends up at 205 points, so roughly Khârn equivalent.

 

For smaller games, since I'm drop pod sold, I'd probably run PF+Chain Fist on the Devoured, dual lightning claws four butchers, and then cram them in a Dreadclaw. Simply send them at anything without a ton of S8+, and be gucci.

Honestly I'm a big fan of Khârn with a Rampager blob plus a red butcher unit with a conusl. The WS5 vs 6 barely matters for what targets you want the Red Butchers to ram into and you can supplement your unit with say a Primus Medicae.

[temneb]

Well what it actually is, is 5 points for a bolter. Despoiler units are pistol and chainsword (chainaxe) and cost the same but trade their bolter and fury of the legion (extra bolter shot when standing still) for spite of the legion (reroll wounds if you charge something that's fleeing, pinned, or has no character. Useless for chain weapons but you can take up to 5 power weapons and it buffs characters who join.

Thanks, I hadn't seen anything on the standard legion units. Why is reroll wounds useless for chain weapons? Seems pretty good to me.

 

Also is the bolter 5 point add on or do you sacrifice the chain sword? Making the points swing bigger?

 

Khârn is a beast it I've interpreted the rules correctly. 10 attacks if you go into a larger unit, rend, murderous strike and precision hits 4... ouch

Edited June 2, 2022 by temneb

[SmorcInc]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:56 AM, temneb said:

Thanks, I hadn't seen anything on the standard legion units. Why is reroll wounds useless for chain weapons? Seems pretty good to me.

 

Also is the bolter 5 point add on or do you sacrifice the chain sword? Making the points swing bigger?

 

Khârn is a beast it I've interpreted the rules correctly. 10 attacks if you go into a larger unit, rend, murderous strike and precision hits 4... ouch

Because Chainaxes reroll wounds already. Thankfully they changed it to pkus 1 attack instead during the final release.

[temneb]

So now I've seen the rules is anyone else thinking despoilers... Loads and loads of despoilers? 5 attacks on the charge, str5, reroll wounds will get work done.