HH 2.0 The Gladitorial Pits: XIIth Legion Tactica

[SkimaskMohawk]

As someone from an outside perspective, why go despoilers when you can go rampagers in Crimson Path? In terms of theory at least.

Despoilers are good and cheap, don't get me wrong, but you still need to proc spite to get the bonus attack. Rampagers get +1 WS, A, and W, plus furious charge and a cadaere weapon (falax blade) of their choice (falax blade) for 22 points. They out damage an equivalent amount of points of despoilers and are obviously more survivable from the WS and 2 wounds.  

 

[panascope]

Keep in mind Crimson Path only makes them Line, not Troops, and Berserker Assault does the opposite, making them Troops but not giving them Line. Either way you’re going to need a couple squads just for scoring.

[SmorcInc]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

As someone from an outside perspective, why go despoilers when you can go rampagers in Crimson Path? In terms of theory at least.

Despoilers are good and cheap, don't get me wrong, but you still need to proc spite to get the bonus attack. Rampagers get +1 WS, A, and W, plus furious charge and a cadaere weapon (falax blade) of their choice (falax blade) for 22 points. They out damage an equivalent amount of points of despoilers and are obviously more survivable from the WS and 2 wounds.  

 

There's what the other guy said, so minimum you'll need like 2 despoiler squads unless you want to completely give up scoring in berserker assault.

Despoilers also being 110 points for 10 bodies with artificer armour, and 3 attacks on the charge assuming disordered with a sarge still alive in the enemy unit, will body most things. Having your wounds split between more bodies is safer with instant death and brutal flying around after all.

Rampagers are a way killier unit of course, but someone's gotta stand on objectives and clog the board, plus you can use despoilers to eat reactions so your Rampagers can blender people.

Frankly I think the Rampager's knife weapon is one of the best in the game, S+1 Rending 4+ duelist edge means that it's basically better than if we were to give them S4 ap2 at initiative in strictly every way.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah fair enough on not getting swapped to troops on crimson path. Definitely fill in the compulsory slots with despoilers in that case.

And ya, the rending is very, very good. wound dreads on 4s. Minimum str 11 against AV if you proc it on the charge. Just watch out for mortarion lol.

[temneb]

I'll play around with it, but I think the speed of Bezerker will be where I end up. I've got a Rampager and butcher squad, may go for a second Rampager. I'm going with metior hammers and a couple of falax mixed in for challenges. I figure the striking first ap2 on 5 is better than getting struck back. I think hammers over the lash to give you a chance to do shine damage to vechles. Thoughts? 

All my sgts will get falax

[panascope]

Berserker Assault is totally great, maybe one of the best Rites around. It does everything you want.

Your guys run and charge farther.

You’re more resistant to pinning.

Rampagers become Troops choices so you can take more Dreadnoughts or Terminators.

Predators shift to Fast Attack so you can load up on Spartans while still having a good long-range platform.

[SmorcInc]

I highly recommend the Speeders boys and girls.

Super fast, movement 14 and 16, powerful weapons, tough, we turn their chainswords into axes, they have hit and run so they can keep charging and blasting, easy access to excellent anti vehicle weapons. Zerker assault especially to give them +5 to charge which is just hilarious to me. Angron also gives them a 6+++ which is pretty funny.

[Irate Khornate]

I'm in the house of massed and maxed Despoilers for objectives with Rampagers for elite and character hunting and dual twin las contemptors for long range support/antitank. 

Honestly not sure where red butchers fit, and I tried out speeders only to have them die horrifically.  

I'll have to test things a bit more however and see if I can refine a bit more.

[N1SB]

The following is so weird and I don't have the book on-hand, so please forgive me if I got something wrong.

I stumbled across this combination because of a list I was toying with.  It's basically a Rite of War + Warlord Trait = a Frankenstein's Monster:

• Choose the HH 2.0 Contemptor Dreadnoughts-are-Line/Troops Rite of War
  • It's a weird RoW, the Warlord is a Contemptor Dread with a mandatory upgrade that makes it a Character
• Now that you have this upgrade Contemptor Dread, you choose a Warlord Trait
  • Choose the Traitor WE Warlord Trait, Blood Hunger, that lets you gain a Wound for each model you kill in melee, up to 6
• And you get like a life-sucking Dreadnought that can have up to 12 Wounds that can heal back to 6 Wounds

Edit - thanks to Brother Smorc below for correcting me.  The Dread Warlord can't get more Wounds than it started, but can heal back up to 6 Wounds.

I was cobbling a 1,000 points worth of cheap Dreads for, say, a Zone Mortalis game, went all melee, found the WE Legion rules the most applicable, found that Warlord Trait.  And I bet a lot of people did, too, because they changed that Blood Hunger Warlord Trait from the Playtest 3 Draft to the final version.

The original Playtest 3 rule was you can get up to double (2x) your starting Wounds, meaning that weird Character Dread could get 2 x 6 = 12 Wounds!  That sort of deliberate change means someone must have gave the devs a heads-up, but that the devs also thought, "Oh, a Shang Tsung Dreadnought, better adjust the rules...but it makes total sense."

Anyway, I was thinking of a WE All-Dread list regardless, just spotted this weird Frankenstein's Monster of a Dreadnought Character, thought I'd share.

Edited July 6, 2022 by N1SB

[SmorcInc]

59 minutes ago, N1SB said:

The following is so weird and I was checking the HH 2.0 books in our Warhammer Store, but I don't have the book on-hand, so please forgive me if I got something wrong.

I stumbled across this combination of elements because of a list I was toying with.  It's basically a strange situation of Rite of War + Warlord Trait = a Frankenstein's Monster:

• Choose the HH 2.0 Contemptor Dreadnoughts-are-Line/Troops Rite of War
  • It's a weird RoW, the Warlord is a Contemptor Dread with a mandatory upgrade that makes it a Character
• Now that you have this upgrade Contemptor Dread, you choose a Warlord Trait
  • Choose the Traitor WE Warlord Trait, Blood Hunger, that lets you gain a Wound for each model you kill in melee, up to 6
• And you get like a life-sucking Dreadnought that can have up to 12 Wounds

I was cobbling a 1,000 points worth of cheap Dreads for, say, a Zone Mortalis game, went all melee, found the WE Legion rules the most applicable, found that Warlord Trait.  And I bet a lot of people did, too, because they changed that Blood Hunger Warlord Trait from the Playtest 3 Draft to the final version.

The original Playtest 3 rule was you can get up to double (2x) your starting Wounds, meaning that weird Character Dread could get 6 + (2 x 6) = 18 Wounds!  That sort of deliberate change means someone must have gave the devs a heads-up, but that the devs also thought, "Oh, a Shang Tsung Dreadnought, better adjust the rules...but it makes total sense."

Anyway, I was thinking of a WE All-Dread list regardless, just spotted this weird Frankenstein's Monster of a Dreadnought Character, thought I'd share.

Blood Hunger maxes out at 6W since it says it may raise your wounds higher than your starting value but no higher than 6W. Also the all Dread rite of war is super duper strong this edition since Dreads are super strong. To the point where I'm not sure how easy it'd be to beat it even if they had no Legion trait.

[SmorcInc]

I've been spending some time trying to think of reasons to take any weapons that aren't just the Blades between cadre weapons. For the uninitiated

Rampagers are WS5 S4 A2 W2 SV3+ models with Chosen warriors and furious charge, the whole unit can take these weapons

Blades are s+1 ap5 rending 4+ duelist edge and get an extra attack. The high rending number plus furious charge and extra attack lets this weapon blend all targets except morty and that one DG wlt. Can ID if you get a Rad Grenade unit to charge first. Overall the best weapon imo due to high volume and ap, letting you reliably push a quarter of your attacks to wounds with ap2 (and wound rolls of 2 and 3 as armour saves). Can easily destroy any vehicle with how many rending attacks there are and can plink wounds in a challenge due to duelist edge.

Hammers are s+2, ap4, reach, two handed, breaching 5+. This makes them theoretically best at killing Auxilia tier models and with any str bonuses can reach S8 so will ID marines as long as furious charge goes off. At I5 base that's really important for decking scary t4 models before they swing. With Khârn as the warlord they'll always ID on the charge with a libby so long as you dont attempt and fail the test for biomancy. 

The Axe is S+2 ap3 two handed, unwieldy, shred, and murderous strike 5. Not much to think about here, best option against armour 3 models that are tough and have lots of wounds. So Automata, 2W 3+ marines and many Daemons. Terrible however into dreads and other 2+ models since they bounce off and fight last. Automata are especially good targets due to low speed and awful average WS, Daemons will probably end up the same too.

Whips are SU ap5 fleshbane, reach, two handed, rending 5. Directly competing with Hammers they are the hardest to get ID with (needing rads and +2 str) like hammers they wound basic models on 2s and fight at I5. Sometimes can get better results into vehicles because of rends but rarely. Main claim to fame is plinking down T5+ models you want to fight before/the axe is bad into. Which should be daemons and Custodes who are known for high toughness + saves and ridonk high toughness respectively. Unfortunately unless you need I5 over 4 the knives are strictly better. Unless they're T6 ap doesn't matter and ID doesn't matter. That and unlike Hammers they don't need any support to function (because there's like no synergy). I'll need to check when I get home if fleshbane gives wound rerolls like poison can.

Tldr:  if you're looking for reasons to use the other weapons, they have use cases even if they are sorta niche.

[panascope]

When the Red Hand Destroyers return to Heresy, the Meteor Hammers will have a wonderful niche with them, as they’ll provide Instant Death attacks at I5 against marines for your army. A full squad assaulting can expect around 60 attacks on the charge, and even against WS5 will pile on the ID wounds.

[temneb]

44 minutes ago, SmorcInc said:

 

Hammers are s+2, ap4, reach, two handed, breaching 5+. This makes them theoretically best at killing Auxilia tier models and with any str bonuses can reach S8 so will ID marines as long as furious charge goes off. At I5 base that's really important for decking scary t4 models before they swing. With Khârn as the warlord they'll always ID on the charge with a libby so long as you dont attempt and fail the test for biomancy. 

 

How does Khârn give instant death? Hammers are my pick as all rounders. With falax on any and all Sgts. Striking at I5 and preventing swing back is very important. Makes them better than falax in my opinion. The barbed hook is strictly better against non vehicles, but the hammers give you versatility.

[SmorcInc]

2 hours ago, temneb said:

How does Khârn give instant death? Hammers are my pick as all rounders. With falax on any and all Sgts. Striking at I5 and preventing swing back is very important. Makes them better than falax in my opinion. The barbed hook is strictly better against non vehicles, but the hammers give you versatility.

Khârn ensures the enemy cannot disorder your charge, that lets furious charge 1 give you exactly 8 strength when combined with the Librarian. The reason I choose the knives over the hammer for an all rounder is they're superior against unwieldy weapons, tac marine level bodies, Dreads, and vehicles just due to the massive amount of rending 4. If you can get Furious Charge to pop then you'll be wounding on 2s with knives as well as hammers.

Now if you're giving the hammers a pocket libby, easily I think they are the better choice at killing any infantry. Fleshbane just doesn't help that much against automata and dreads unfortunately and those are what you'd need it the most against.

Rending just makes the knives killier into Dreads than any other option (the lash needs to reroll successes so even though it wounds on 2s it'll end up with less rends which you need to get past the 2+ save) and killier into AV targets just because the plus 1 attack plus matching or beating the plus 1 strength that the hammer gives. Personally I wish it had Breaching and maybe gave the hammer Rending so it would be superior into large targets but that's just me.

EDIT: I've also learned that apparently a Moritat isn't banned from joining other units without Bitter Duty, since Bitter Duty lacks the characters can't join non Bitter Duty units. Ravening Madmen for example does include that distinction.

Meaning if you just slap a Moritat into a Rampager unit they have their own pocket Rad Grenade holder, thus making Knives easily ID.

Edited June 28, 2022 by SmorcInc
New information gleaned.

[temneb]

I agree as a missile unit, one and done, falax are better into marines or unwieldy.  But if you want them to survive, the hammer is above the falax. I'm planning a 15 strong jump unit

[Irate Khornate]

So what are people arming the Devoured with in the Red butcher squads?

 

Chainfists, thunder hammers, one of each, or lightning claws?

[SmorcInc]

6 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

So what are people arming the Devoured with in the Red butcher squads?

 

Chainfists, thunder hammers, one of each, or lightning claws?

Now that Chainfists aren't specialist weapons I've been using either single chainfist, or thunder hammer + powerfist. Otherwise you give up the extra attack from dual wielding. I'd also rather not give my only source of S8 lightning claws personally.

[Irate Khornate]

17 hours ago, SmorcInc said:

Now that Chainfists aren't specialist weapons I've been using either single chainfist, or thunder hammer + powerfist. Otherwise you give up the extra attack from dual wielding. I'd also rather not give my only source of S8 lightning claws personally.

I'll be honest, I'm so used to chain fists being specialist weapons I didn't even check to see if it was there. Absolutely blowing my mind right now.

[Irate Khornate]

Someone pointed out that Warmonger Consul makes Red Butchers a bit more palatable since it gives the squad deep strike. What are y'all's thoughts?

Im thinking Warmonger with the +1 strength on the charge warlord trait with a full squad of Red Butchers and lightning claws (devoured with chainfists or thunder hammer/power fist) right into the front line. Huge investment, but has to be dealt with while other units get a little breathing room. And has a chance to take out a lot of the opponents units with line.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Irate Khornate

[panascope]

Very sad to see the sharp and unneeded nerf on our Destroyers. A max size squad with Meteor Hammers jumped in cost by nearly 200 points.

Anyway the Warmonger is a prime delivery system for sure. With how strong Deep Strike is now this is probably going to be my preferred method to bust out my Red Butchers.

Edited July 1, 2022 by panascope

[SmorcInc]

Warmongers are hugely impactful. Especially if we slam Khârn or Angron into the unit. Cars are handy for lascannons but I do dislike them exploding and would rather give my enemy one unit's shooting instead.

Edit: slamming Angron of course stops nails from triggering turn 2 which is a shame.

Edited July 2, 2022 by SmorcInc

[panascope]

I like the angle the World Eaters have now on a multi-front assault army. You can have a couple Spartans ready to dump out a Champion and 40 Despoilers. Deep Strike a squad of Red Hands (or Rampagers) with a Butcher’s Claws Jump Pack Praetor to keep your ID attacks, a Warmonger to bring in some Red Butchers, and some Outflanking Javelins to put pressure on the back. It seems pretty easy now to totally surround your opponent and drown them in attacks.

[SmorcInc]

Has anyone found a good target for Red Butchers? In most of my games they don't seem like a significant upgrade over normal cataphractii for their points.

 

Besides to give a berserker character meatshields ofc.

[temneb]

I think their roll has changed,  power armour deleters. Squad of 5 with claws. Sadly their our only native way to get hatred now. Send them towards the largest line unit you can find and watch them evaporate. 

With all the rending and ap2 on the charge at initiative or above, I think they struggle as armour 2 beat sticks. Can't even give them fnp without Angron anymore.

[Irate Khornate]

On 7/5/2022 at 4:17 PM, temneb said:

I think their roll has changed,  power armour deleters. Squad of 5 with claws. Sadly their our only native way to get hatred now. Send them towards the largest line unit you can find and watch them evaporate. 

With all the rending and ap2 on the charge at initiative or above, I think they struggle as armour 2 beat sticks. Can't even give them fnp without Angron anymore.

I still give my devoured chainfists for some multi purpose chopping, but I'm in agreement that the rest of the squad is lightning claws.