HH 2.0 The Gladitorial Pits: XIIth Legion Tactica

[Valkyrion]

I was thinking of a Berzerker assault RoW with something like this as a base

4 x 15 Despoilers (600 points unbuffed)
(or 3 x 20?)

2 x Tart or Indom terminators with lightning claws (Red Butchers can't run)  - 400-450 points

2 x 10 man Veterans with Chainaxes (450 points unbuffed)

 

That gives me 90 models that can run or charge faster than infantry should be able to, and makes absolutely no bones about what it's going to do, and still leaves me around 1000 for other units in a 2500 point list.
The reason I've gone for veterans over rampager is that i don't like the rampager models. I was thinking of using the new Berzerkers when they come out as bunny eared veterans, you see, as I want my WE to be Chaos World Eaters, not Traitor World Eaters. 

I don't really want tanks, even though that leaves me little in the way of protection for my guys - i've got tanks in other armies, but could maybe do dreadnoughts and maybe 2 five man units of Rotor Cannon heavies for some pinning. 

[Irate Khornate]

7 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

I was thinking of a Berzerker assault RoW with something like this as a base

4 x 15 Despoilers (600 points unbuffed)
(or 3 x 20?)

2 x Tart or Indom terminators with lightning claws (Red Butchers can't run)  - 400-450 points

2 x 10 man Veterans with Chainaxes (450 points unbuffed)

 

That gives me 90 models that can run or charge faster than infantry should be able to, and makes absolutely no bones about what it's going to do, and still leaves me around 1000 for other units in a 2500 point list.
The reason I've gone for veterans over rampager is that i don't like the rampager models. I was thinking of using the new Berzerkers when they come out as bunny eared veterans, you see, as I want my WE to be Chaos World Eaters, not Traitor World Eaters. 

I don't really want tanks, even though that leaves me little in the way of protection for my guys - i've got tanks in other armies, but could maybe do dreadnoughts and maybe 2 five man units of Rotor Cannon heavies for some pinning. 

I'd go 3 units of 20 Despoilers and shell out the points for 4 power lances in the unit and Falax blades on the sarge in each unit. The +1 initiative on ap3 is worth it. And the sarge can do some AP2 damage in a challenge.

Rotor cannons aren't worth the points if you're trying to go for pinning. If it was a check per failed wound it would be different but as it stands not worth it.

Your list lacks  AP2, so anything in Terminator or Artificer armor is going to bog down your army. The easy fix on that is to swap Vets with Rampagers with Falax blades. The Aesthetic fix is to use the Corpse grinder cultist arms with the chain cleavers. The alternative is you could switch out claws with power fists or chain fists on the terminators.

You honestly can't go wrong with dreadnoughts this edition. They're super powerful and absolutely vicious. Definitely a good source of Anti-tank.

 

 

[Valkyrion]

33 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

I'd go 3 units of 20 Despoilers and shell out the points for 4 power lances in the unit and Falax blades on the sarge in each unit. The +1 initiative on ap3 is worth it. And the sarge can do some AP2 damage in a challenge.

Rotor cannons aren't worth the points if you're trying to go for pinning. If it was a check per failed wound it would be different but as it stands not worth it.

Your list lacks  AP2, so anything in Terminator or Artificer armor is going to bog down your army. The easy fix on that is to swap Vets with Rampagers with Falax blades. The Aesthetic fix is to use the Corpse grinder cultist arms with the chain cleavers. The alternative is you could switch out claws with power fists or chain fists on the terminators.

You honestly can't go wrong with dreadnoughts this edition. They're super powerful and absolutely vicious. Definitely a good source of Anti-tank.

 

 

Thanks, very helpful!

you say for a switch I could do power fists or chainfists on the terminators - do you mean a combi bolter and power/chain fist instead of 2 claws? 
Only asking because twin lightning claws terminators are, well, proper cool, and rule of cool trumps efficiency all day long!
 

[Irate Khornate]

16 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Thanks, very helpful!

you say for a switch I could do power fists or chainfists on the terminators - do you mean a combi bolter and power/chain fist instead of 2 claws? 
Only asking because twin lightning claws terminators are, well, proper cool, and rule of cool trumps efficiency all day long!
 

I'm definitely saying fists and combibolters instead of claws. I love claws as much as anybody, but they don't pay the dividends unless you're going after troops. Plus the need for some AP2 is pretty high this edition.

[temneb]

Despoilers are going to be my base too, but I'm struggling with the spite of the legion though. I think the best way is to remove the characters, then pinning is easier with the rotor. With out the spite, it can't be proc'd after charging with a challenge and higher initiative, at least their cheap, but I'm not counting on them getting that 5th attack. 

[GarvielEisenhorn]

I'm considering starting a Legion Recon Company soon, any advice on making the most out of the XII legion rules in this context?

[xxxjtmxxx]

melee recon troops which infiltrate 

[GarvielEisenhorn]

1 hour ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

melee recon troops which infiltrate 

Assuming I'm not able to acquire melee arms (I'm thinking of converting mkVI for recon marines) which would be better; shotguns or bolters with chain bayonets, or a mix perhaps?

[Valkyrion]

Purely because of the World Eaters aesthetic, chain bayonets. If you can't have a chain axe, have a chain sword. If you can't have chain sword, have a chain bolter. 

[AlexisSonOfDorn]

3 hours ago, GarvielEisenhorn said:

Assuming I'm not able to acquire melee arms (I'm thinking of converting mkVI for recon marines) which would be better; shotguns or bolters with chain bayonets, or a mix perhaps?

Meele arms are easy to get cheap. Pop Goes the Monkey, Kromlech, Spell Crow, old 40k assault marines, and used chaos/berserkers are how I have built all mine.

Edited July 24, 2022 by AlexisSonOfDorn

[Bodtfarm]

16 hours ago, GarvielEisenhorn said:

I'm considering starting a Legion Recon Company soon, any advice on making the most out of the XII legion rules in this context?

 

It's a great idea.  Recon Marine squad options let any number of Marines swap their bolters out for chainswords for no points.  Then due to our legion rules, those chainswords become chain axes for no points.  Using Astartes Shotguns to drop opponents WS via Concussive *might* be can option, but you'll probably have to use Seekers to snipe out any leadership support in the target squad first, to get them down to Ld7.  Afterwards, get on to tearing them up with a Chainaxe+Incarnate Violence boosted charge.

 

[Bodtfarm]

Does anyone have ideas on how to get the most out of the World Eaters Beserkers special rule?  It's looks like a must-take if the character you're giving it to is joining a unit of Red Butchers, and unplayable for anything besides that. 

[ashc]

9 hours ago, Bodtfarm said:

Does anyone have ideas on how to get the most out of the World Eaters Beserkers special rule?  It's looks like a must-take if the character you're giving it to is joining a unit of Red Butchers, and unplayable for anything besides that. 

I think that's pretty much the main use of it and I can't really see another time you would consider it. Delegatus/Champion/Praetor in a unit of Red Butchers in a transport of some kind.

Or the Warmonger from the expanded army list so that the unit can then Deep Strike in.

I'm looking at World Eaters as my traitor legion of choice, are Rhinos of use to the XIIth or are big foot slogging squads the better option?

 

[SmorcInc]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:59 AM, ashc said:

I think that's pretty much the main use of it and I can't really see another time you would consider it. Delegatus/Champion/Praetor in a unit of Red Butchers in a transport of some kind.

Or the Warmonger from the expanded army list so that the unit can then Deep Strike in.

I'm looking at World Eaters as my traitor legion of choice, are Rhinos of use to the XIIth or are big foot slogging squads the better option?

 

I never use rhinos, zerker assault is almost as fast and you can charge with it while being cheaper. If you want to use em it'll be for shooting units or just the T1 14ish inch move so you can T2 charge.

[Bolt Slinger]

On 8/1/2022 at 5:31 PM, SmorcInc said:

I never use rhinos, zerker assault is almost as fast and you can charge with it while being cheaper. If you want to use em it'll be for shooting units or just the T1 14ish inch move so you can T2 charge.

That would be a T1 18-19 15 inch move. Pretty hefty ^^

7 inches from the Rhino, place the first model next to the exit, from there move full distance (1 inch from the base then move 7 inches) and then run your initiative (mostly 4 inches)

Still could be worth the points, I'd give it a go for sure.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by AK-47
corrected by Canadian_F_H

[Canadian_F_H]

2 minutes ago, AK-47 said:

That would be a T1 18-19 inch move. Pretty hefty ^^

7 inches from the Rhino, place the first model next to the exit, from there move full distance (1 inch from the base then move 7 inches) and then run your initiative (mostly 4 inches)

Could be worth the points, I'd give it a go for sure.  

Slight correction. Disembark states the model cannot end its move more than its movement characteristic from the access point.  The placing of the model at the AP is just there so you don't disembark from a blocked AP.  Whether blocked by impassable terrain, off a board edge or thru a model.

[temneb]

How are we arming our preators/ champions? 

Is 10 points worth it for an extra specalist weapon attack? 

Or are we taking pistols? 

Shot guns seem like a good option for a cheap hail Mary at cocusive. 

[Cactus]

I've been thinking of a vigilator to help trigger the bonus attack for despoiler squads. A relentless nemesis bolter can snipe out sergeants and/or maybe cause a pinning test before he charges in with the despoilers.

[temneb]

1 hour ago, Cactus said:

I've been thinking of a vigilator to help trigger the bonus attack for despoiler squads. A relentless nemesis bolter can snipe out sergeants and/or maybe cause a pinning test before he charges in with the despoilers.

 I've settled on some seeker squads with chain bayonets for that. More chance of getting a couple of wounds through. In case of apoths and attached characters. 

[Bodtfarm]

5 hours ago, temneb said:

How are we arming our preators/ champions? 

Is 10 points worth it for an extra specalist weapon attack? 

Or are we taking pistols? 

Shot guns seem like a good option for a cheap hail Mary at cocusive. 

Paragon Blades and Thunder Hammers are par for the course. But caedere weapons are fluffy and good too. In fact all the caedere weapons are good, its just that falax blades are amazing.  

[SmorcInc]

Alright now that the game's been out for a bit, what are ya'lls Angron escort?

So far my impressions of them are

Basic Retinue: Solid for their points since they're pretty durable and can score, but since Angron can't leave the unit and they can't get a large enough squad to make use of a Spartan comfortably it always feels like I never have as many bodies as I want. I'll have to try using them with Jump Packs later to fill out a Spartan better and provide better combat power but then it starts getting expensive.

Rampagers: Like a basic retinue but with a 15 max squad size, better weapons (except whip) and bad armour. However since Angron can leave the unit that means we can get into the 'detach Angron' shennanigans. Plus with a 15 man squad we can comfortably fit in a spartan while still being smaller than other primarch deathballs to trigger Angron's Rampage even with a full suite of buff characters. Definitely the killiest of the escorts and probably the best thing to send into other deathballs since they'll definitely pull their weight in kills due to being typically faster (so Angron's Nails won't completely kill them before you're allowed to swing).

Red Butchers: Angron breaking their defensive buff is a downer but them being the only viable option of an escort with 4++ is a big deal, and they're ok enough into everything without a power fist (Angron can deal with those,) that their main feels bad is they can't keep up with Angron once the car is gone. Plus they're easily the most expensive escort but will definitely get Angron there safely.

Despoilers: I haven't been able to test these the most but since Angron benefits from Heart and Spite of the legion, and they are the cheapest escort (situationally better FNP than Rampagers that works on Angron, but maximum 10 less wounds), combined with their scoring makes them seem on paper at least to be pretty solid. Slap in a Biomancer and some Rad Grenade access and we can start getting them to ID enemy T4 on initiative with 3 to 4 attacks each. They buff Angron personally the most I feel (since they'll usually lose enough bodies to trigger Rampage easily, give the better FNP to Angron and give him an extra attack situationally), but losing out on the powerful armour of the Red Butchers and powerful weapons of the Rampagers makes me unsure if they're worth taking.

What about ya'll? any different impressions on escorts now that we've had them around for a while.

[panascope]

Can’t you just give Angron the Berserker rule for +20 points? He falls under the guidelines for who can have it.

I haven’t had a chance to play with him yet but I think he’s best paired up with the Red Butchers because they both help the other do exactly what they need.

Has anybody given any thought to the new version of Surlak? I’m thinking about an army list that goes hard on the Inductii gaining S6 by tossing in a pair of Moritats (with Meteor Hammers, of course) so that both of my big Despoiler blobs are Instant Death against most marines (Sons of Horus notwithstanding). Because the Inductii now gain Bitter Duty you can keep the Moritats right in there with them, guaranteeing their rad grenades. You could sorta scale it with the Red Hand Destroyers, although they are so spendy I’m not sure they’re worth it. Sure you can’t score but who even cares? Scoring’s for wimps anyway.

[Eternal Despair]

No as angron has the unique sub type, units with the unique sub type cannot take upgrades not listed in their unit entry

[SmorcInc]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:34 PM, Eternal Despair said:

No as angron has the unique sub type, units with the unique sub type cannot take upgrades not listed in their unit entry

Yup, and this means he breaks the Ravening Madmen special rule's defensive buff. Very sad time.

[Bodtfarm]

1 hour ago, SmorcInc said:

Yup, and this means he breaks the Ravening Madmen special rule's defensive buff. Very sad time.

Yeah. 

The combination of the Beserker and Ravening Madmen special rules seem designed to promote Character+Red Butcher deathstars.  Its just that Red Butchers are so "meh" when compared to other legion elites, and the WS3 nerf is so rough given the new chart...It just feels like the designers made a lot of very specific tweaks to those rules, just to balance a  combo a lot of WE players won't use.