HH 2.0 The Gladitorial Pits: XIIth Legion Tactica

[temneb]

I'm not sure that butchers are that aweful. 5 with double claws, 31 attacks on the charge, 26 if disordered,  rerols failed hits and wounds. Rending on 6s. 

Hits on 3s mostly

27.5 ish hits,

20 wounds, 6-7 at ap2. Will knock 2-3 cataphractii, at initiative. 

Say they get to swing back at i1 with fists.  6 attacks, hitting on 3, 4 hits,  wounding on 3's due to the -1 str. 

3 wounds. 1.5 guys die on the swing back. 

They really shine against large blobs and veterans. And if you send in a beserker preator with paragon and the -2 ld, they'll do work. But they need a delivery system.

Edited August 14, 2022 by temneb

[SmorcInc]

11 hours ago, temneb said:

I'm not sure that butchers are that aweful. 5 with double claws, 31 attacks on the charge, 26 if disordered,  rerols failed hits and wounds. Rending on 6s. 

Hits on 3s mostly

27.5 ish hits,

20 wounds, 6-7 at ap2. Will knock 2-3 cataphractii, at initiative. 

Say they get to swing back at i1 with fists.  6 attacks, hitting on 3, 4 hits,  wounding on 3's due to the -1 str. 

3 wounds. 1.5 guys die on the swing back. 

They really shine against large blobs and veterans. And if you send in a beserker preator with paragon and the -2 ld, they'll do work. But they need a delivery system.

Well actually, if this is Red Butchers against a real melee unit they're hitting on 4s rerolling. Also power fists are wounding on 2s and still instant deathing you since unlike Crimson Paladins it's not minus 1 to wound rolls, it's minus 1 strength for the purposes of wound rolls.

 

This combined with the defensive WS3 and lack of S8 outside of characters means that they actually lose to generic cataphractii terminators with power fists (or even gorgons). Only being carried by the fact that they are fearless but that stops them from taking our special reaction. Since once the hatred round is over they just go back to power axes with another attack and +1 to hit vs a power fist unit that also gets +1 to hit. Unless you get lucky and the devourer survives a challenge.

They'll definitely clap non melee units pretty hard, or just things that also lack the ability to ID; but their real selling point is that they're a 10 man capable WS5 unit in cataphractii. 

 

WE don't even need help killing power armour anyway, our melee units only struggle when the enemy can overcome their lower attack number (typically through ID).

 

[Bodtfarm]

 

16 hours ago, temneb said:

I'm not sure that butchers are that aweful. 5 with double claws, 31 attacks on the charge, 26 if disordered,  rerols failed hits and wounds. Rending on 6s. 

Hits on 3s mostly

27.5 ish hits,

20 wounds, 6-7 at ap2. Will knock 2-3 cataphractii, at initiative. 

Say they get to swing back at i1 with fists.  6 attacks, hitting on 3, 4 hits,  wounding on 3's due to the -1 str. 

3 wounds. 1.5 guys die on the swing back. 

They really shine against large blobs and veterans. And if you send in a beserker preator with paragon and the -2 ld, they'll do work. But they need a delivery system.

I got ya. What I was thinking was a Cataphracti Praetor, then taking a Cataphracti Command Squad.  You'd lose out on taking a Beserker praetor, but the tradeoffs are worth it.

5 Cataphracti Chosen with Fists are 235, They're WS 5 all the time, w/BS 4 and decent ranged weapon options. As long as the Standard Bearer is alive, they gain Line, they're LD 10 and so is any squad within 6".   They lose out on Hatred, Fearless, and an attack, but free up an Elite slot, and can still take an LR Proteus as a Dedicated Transport. 

[temneb]

22 hours ago, SmorcInc said:

Well actually, if this is Red Butchers against a real melee unit they're hitting on 4s rerolling. Also power fists are wounding on 2s and still instant deathing you since unlike Crimson Paladins it's not minus 1 to wound rolls, it's minus 1 strength for the purposes of wound rolls.

 

 

The -1 strength on a power fist would reduce the wound roll to 3+ though, unless some how you get a are 9 power fist. So still id, but wounding at str 7. Unless I'm missing something. I'm saying butchers are a grinding unit now. 

I think they hold up if we get the charge off, and strike at I against an I1 weapon unit. 

[SmorcInc]

11 hours ago, temneb said:

The -1 strength on a power fist would reduce the wound roll to 3+ though, unless some how you get a are 9 power fist. So still id, but wounding at str 7. Unless I'm missing something. I'm saying butchers are a grinding unit now. 

I think they hold up if we get the charge off, and strike at I against an I1 weapon unit. 

Strength is a different chart from weaponskill. Against t4, s5 on 3s, s6 on 2s. If you're 4 higher [s3 vs t7] you only can wound with rending.

Claws are great, but they aren't going to let you beat a 2+ save unit with power fists. We get 3 more attacks but they get full saves and ID, we get shred but they wound on 2s, we have rend and initiative but they are straight ap2.

Butchers (especially with claws) just don't have enough output vs other 2w 2+ save models (especially ones with invulns) to win. They'll usually tie a combat for a while thanks to fearless and cataphractii but they'll eventually lose.

[temneb]

Jesus, that table has changed since 7th ed? 

That makes metior hammers much better than I thought. Also falax on the charge with Rampagers, all wounding marines on 2's.... 

Yeah that changes the math. I'm still going to use them. Might keep my axes now though. Will have to re think my plan. 

[khsndkthrss]

I was pondering if you can get the Fury of the Ancient Dreadnought the Berserker special rule? but I guess not, because it isn't a IC?

And also thinking about converting some sweet rampagers myself - was thinking about pimping the AoS Bloodreaver set with some more armor. Lot's of blades there. For Meteorhammers I was considering the Maurauder Horsemen kit - there are some flail options there, with some old Chaos Knight shoulder Pads slapped onto MKIII Armor - could look good!

[Canadian_F_H]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:56 AM, temneb said:

Jesus, that table has changed since 7th ed? 

That makes metior hammers much better than I thought. Also falax on the charge with Rampagers, all wounding marines on 2's.... 

Yeah that changes the math. I'm still going to use them. Might keep my axes now though. Will have to re think my plan. 

I think the tables have changed... but even in last edition S7 wounded T4 on 2+.  the only editions I know of where S7 wounded T4 on a 3+ are 8th and 9th editions of 40k.

[T0MMY]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:54 PM, Bodtfarm said:

 

It's a great idea.  Recon Marine squad options let any number of Marines swap their bolters out for chainswords for no points.  Then due to our legion rules, those chainswords become chain axes for no points.  Using Astartes Shotguns to drop opponents WS via Concussive *might* be can option, but you'll probably have to use Seekers to snipe out any leadership support in the target squad first, to get them down to Ld7.  Afterwards, get on to tearing them up with a Chainaxe+Incarnate Violence boosted charge.

 

Hi team

I've been ruminating over a couple of 2.0 lists and really see (at least one) recon squad featuring. Bog standard squad is 145 pts (85 + 60) for a 10 man squad you can deploy anywhere on the table over 12" away from enemy units - surely this means early objective holding as they have "line" keyword? Also skirmish means they can have 3" between unit members rather than 2" (don't know if that's useful)?

Don't know whether to go 9x bolters with chain bayonets for extra 18 points, possibly with sgt chain axe and combi bolter (flamer) for 5 points??

OR

Chainaxe the whole squad for no points and give some potential first turn charge threat. Could chuck a powerfist on sgt (15 pts) for punching face / tanks.

10 points for Augury scanner to limit deployment within 12" and 10 points for vexilla to boost combat survivability - still under 200 points for 10 man squad.

AND, once you've deployed and it looks like your opponent is going to absolutely demolish them turn 1 you can redeploy them because they have scout. So you can use it to mess about with their deployment too.

ALSO, I think I'm right that if you give them a rhino as DT this can infiltrate with them and therefore for an extra 65 points you could have a multi-melta 12" from their deployment lines turn 1, which might be a scary prospect for their dreads / tanks, etc. *Other heavy weapons are available (heavy flamer 5 pts?)

THOUGHTS?

[SmorcInc]

Well augury only really helps for other scouts in this scenario, typically I would consider recon marines mostly to just take nemesis bolters and be a bit rude. Nemsis bolters being able to hurt everything up to front facing spartans and having a board length table range means you can plink wounds off of characters (usually killing them) without needing to approach.

 

Skirmish btw helps protect against blast templates mostly, and I think gives +1 to cover saves (so a 4++ in ruins). 

 

As for a more melee loadout, it can work, especially with our reaction, but I'd usually prefer to buy 5 rampagers with jump packs for those points; we just are so flush with good melee units that having one start close to the enemy but unable to charge normally isn't that great.

The strategy looks very funny and definitely isn't worthless. I just wouldn't run it myself.

[Cactus]

I'm very attracted by the idea of a chainaxe recon squad in outflanking reserve. They should be able to charge at angles or targets your main line can't reach.

Snipers look like a good use too. Removing characters or causing pinning are what we need to trigger Spite of the Legion on despoiler squads.

[xxxjtmxxx]

Infiltrating units could not go in melee turn 1. 

[T0MMY]

2 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

Infiltrating units could not go in melee turn 1. 

Why not?

I like the idea of snipers with nemesis bolters but

1. kinda negates the infiltrate as you have such a massive range (unless there's a really juicy bit of mid-field terrain)
2. not very world eater

[SmorcInc]

26 minutes ago, T0MMY said:

Why not?

I like the idea of snipers with nemesis bolters but

1. kinda negates the infiltrate as you have such a massive range (unless there's a really juicy bit of mid-field terrain)
2. not very world eater

Because Infiltrate stops you from charging.

If you mean why did the writers say no, probably because otherwise we'd have Alpha Legion slap a bunch of other legion super melee units in ultra close range.

Infiltrate on snipers lets you ensure great sightlines using shroud bombs and the nemesis bolter's natural giga range.

Edited August 24, 2022 by SmorcInc

[T0MMY]

Ah ok, thanks. Need to re-read that rule. Presumably you can still be charged first turn though?

[SmorcInc]

3 hours ago, T0MMY said:

Ah ok, thanks. Need to re-read that rule. Presumably you can still be charged first turn though?

Yes. The restriction is only on the infiltrator or scouter.

[Snuggatron]

I thought I saw somewhere that havoc launchers on rhinos could pin. Did I actually read this or am I a madman?

[Bolt Slinger]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:16 AM, Snuggatron said:

I thought I saw somewhere that havoc launchers on rhinos could pin. Did I actually read this or am I a madman?

A ravening madman sir :^)

Havoc launcher: 48" str 5, ap 5, heavy 1, blast (3"), twin-linked

[Bodtfarm]

3 hours ago, AK-47 said:

A ravening madman sir :^)

Havoc launcher: 48" str 5, ap 5, heavy 1, blast (3"), twin-linked

That said, whenever I think about revisions to my War Hounds Crimson Path list, I find myself trying to fit pinning weapons into it.

So I'm always like, how do I fit some sniper rifles, barrage weapons and other pinning nastiness. You know, to fix guys in place and strip their capacity to React when my charges go off.  Our rules are so strong and focused, I think we win out if we use pinning to make the game as "I go, you go" as possible. 

[T0MMY]

Hi, me again.

Squad sergeants can take caedere weapons as they have the "character" unit type, correct? This replaces the model's chainsword.

So if I run a Destroyer assault squad all models come with two bolt pistols + chainsword so I can run a sergeant with two bolt pistols and two falax blades >:)

Also all the chainswords can be upgraded to chain axes for free for +1S so this makes them a pretty cool unit right? I'll probably run a unit of 10. Maybe with 2 toxiferran flamers as they swap these for a BP, so they still have a BP and chainaxe for +1A in melee... And the counter-attack special rule means they get +1A even if they get charged, so a unit of 10 will get 21 attacks (base) + 10 for two cc weapons + 10 for charging / being charged = 41 attacks at S5 from chainaxes / falax blades. Am I right?

Here's a WIP

[Bodtfarm]

45 minutes ago, T0MMY said:

Hi, me again.

Squad sergeants can take caedere weapons as they have the "character" unit type, correct? This replaces the model's chainsword.

So if I run a Destroyer assault squad all models come with two bolt pistols + chainsword so I can run a sergeant with two bolt pistols and two falax blades >:)

Also all the chainswords can be upgraded to chain axes for free for +1S so this makes them a pretty cool unit right? I'll probably run a unit of 10. Maybe with 2 toxiferran flamers as they swap these for a BP, so they still have a BP and chainaxe for +1A in melee... And the counter-attack special rule means they get +1A even if they get charged, so a unit of 10 will get 21 attacks (base) + 10 for two cc weapons + 10 for charging / being charged = 41 attacks at S5 from chainaxes / falax blades. Am I right?

Here's a WIP

 

Does the Counter-Attack rule also benefit from Violence Incarnate? 

[Cactus]

Violence Incarnate only triggers when charging, but it brings the total up to 51 attacks from a unit of 10.

I have an unbuilt set of 10 MkII assault marines that I found on ebay a few years ago and have also been thinking about destroyer squads. My idea was to give the sergeant a meteor hammer so he strikes at I5 with S6, and rad grenades reduce the enemy's toughness by 1. Only AP4 but breaching 5+ isn't terrible.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Cactus

[Bodtfarm]

Sorry if this seems like a strange question...but is anybody running a list with a lot of footslogging Despoiler blobs? 

[Bolt Slinger]

8 hours ago, Bodtfarm said:

Sorry if this seems like a strange question...but is anybody running a list with a lot of footslogging Despoiler blobs? 

I'm thinking of something like this:

Berzerker Assault

HQ

Gahlan Surlak

Elites

Rampagers (5) Falax Blades, Jump Packs, AA

Rampagers (5) Falax Blades, Jump Packs, AA

Troops

Assault Squad (10) Falax Blades, AA

Assault Squad (10) Falax Blades, AA

Assault Squad (10) Falax Blades, AA

Despoilers (20) Falax Blades, AA

Despoilers (20) Power Fist, AA

Despoilers (20) Power Fist, AA

Fast

Javelin (1) Lascanons, Multi Melta

Javelin (1) Lascanons, Multi Melta

50 points to spare for a 2000pt list.

Lots of cheap fast line units, lots of rending with the Falax Blades and 3 big blocks of Despoilers waving strength 6 chain axes. I think this could be fun and powerful even

[T0MMY]

On 9/10/2022 at 6:22 AM, Bodtfarm said:

Sorry if this seems like a strange question...but is anybody running a list with a lot of footslogging Despoiler blobs? 

I'm going for a "standard" tactical squad with bolters + chainblades x 20 as a central blob mainstay for my army as I feel no objective holding firepower will limit options. Still pretty handy if they do need to drop into combat. I did think about chainaxes for them too but figured it was too much.

Then I have a few options of troop units to add to this; a 10 man breacher squad and a tac support squad with plasma guns. I'm debating making a recon squad for the benefits of infiltrate and line, for objective holding outside deployment. Not sure whether to bolter then or cc them.

For combat I'm going to use specialist quads as I think they do it better: a 15 man squad of rampages with jump packs, falax blades (10) and meteor hammers (5) and a 10 man destoyer assault squad. These all get 2 bp and a chainaxe, with probably 2 rad flamer things and sgt with falax bades. 

These 2 squads have mobility and hard hitting (rampagers 76 attacks on the charge and destroyers 51?).

Might add another tactical squad with bolters and chainaxes... not sure yet.

Edited September 11, 2022 by T0MMY