HH 2.0 The Gladitorial Pits: XIIth Legion Tactica

[SmorcInc]

On 9/10/2022 at 1:22 AM, Bodtfarm said:

Sorry if this seems like a strange question...but is anybody running a list with a lot of footslogging Despoiler blobs? 

I actually love running several small despoiler squads. They don't have a buy in cost and put out 3 or 4 attacks on the charge depending on disordered so they can sometimes pick up kills and take objectives at the same time.

[Cactus]

Do you, or anyone else, bother with the power weapon options or do you prefer to keep them cheap?

[temneb]

Power lances and falax on the sgt. Your likely to remove a bunch of armour 3 models before they get a strike.  Unless their 3rd legion, or are armed similarly. 

I'm actually thinking 15 Rampagers is too much killing. 10 is where I'm going to sit. Or a bunch of 5 man units. 

[SmorcInc]

I like 15 for Angron to make max use of the spartan.

[Bodtfarm]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:51 AM, temneb said:

Power lances and falax on the sgt. Your likely to remove a bunch of armour 3 models before they get a strike.  Unless their 3rd legion, or are armed similarly. 

I'm actually thinking 15 Rampagers is too much killing. 10 is where I'm going to sit. Or a bunch of 5 man units. 

Don't worry about too much killing; loyalist or traitor this is still the 12th Legion.

Somebody can check my math, but I think 15 Rampagers with falax kill any dreadnought in the game in 1 round of combat. That's a pretty decent club to have in your bag, especially in 2.0.

[temneb]

Jesus 5 on the charge get close. 10 no problem 15 will take 2. 

[T0MMY]

Plus you got to consider losses that you might suffer on the way, or later in the game. Someone confirm the maths, but start the game with 15 guys and lose 5 and you still have 10. Start with 10 guys and lose 5, you only have 5! 

I also think you may as well make use of the specialist troops available as (presumably) your opponent will probably be using theirs!

 

[T0MMY]

Hi all, apologies for the double post!

Question re. Chaplains.

I'm thinking of running a Centurion with the Chaplain upgrade as the leader for my WE force (certainly in smaller games if I'm not going to run a Khârn).

He brings Hatred (reroll all failed 'to hit' rolls in first round of combat) for himself and unit he joins, which is decent enough. 

With Warlord Trait "Butchers Nails" he also adds +1 S to whole squad every time they qualify for violence incarnate.

Adding him to a squad or Ravagers (with jump packs) this is a whole heap of bonus; taking falax blades to S6 and 2+1+1+1= 6 attacks on charge and meteor hammers to S7 and 5 attacks (no bonus for 2 cc weapons as 2 handed).

The rules say you can only master-craft a power weapon so don't know whether to give mc power maul or stick with a meteor hammer (although modelled like a long-handled thunder hammer rather than ball & chain as feel this is more like a crozius?) mostly for appearance factor, but this would be also S7 on the charge and 4+1(charging)+1(violence incarnate) = 6 attacks.

I guess adding "Bezerker" isn't worth it as the whole squad has to have Ravening Madmen and Ravagers don't?

I calculate him at 130 points with Chaplain (+35) and Caedere weapon (+15) + jump pack (+20).

Any thoughts?

[temneb]

I love the Chaplin, but as a supporting character. I feel the rites of war add to much to pass up. So I always run a deligatas or Preator. 

 

[Bodtfarm]

8 hours ago, T0MMY said:

Hi all, apologies for the double post!

Question re. Chaplains.

I'm thinking of running a Centurion with the Chaplain upgrade as the leader for my WE force (certainly in smaller games if I'm not going to run a Khârn).

He brings Hatred (reroll all failed 'to hit' rolls in first round of combat) for himself and unit he joins, which is decent enough. 

With Warlord Trait "Butchers Nails" he also adds +1 S to whole squad every time they qualify for violence incarnate.

Adding him to a squad or Ravagers (with jump packs) this is a whole heap of bonus; taking falax blades to S6 and 2+1+1+1= 6 attacks on charge and meteor hammers to S7 and 5 attacks (no bonus for 2 cc weapons as 2 handed).

The rules say you can only master-craft a power weapon so don't know whether to give mc power maul or stick with a meteor hammer (although modelled like a long-handled thunder hammer rather than ball & chain as feel this is more like a crozius?) mostly for appearance factor, but this would be also S7 on the charge and 4+1(charging)+1(violence incarnate) = 6 attacks.

I guess adding "Bezerker" isn't worth it as the whole squad has to have Ravening Madmen and Ravagers don't?

I calculate him at 130 points with Chaplain (+35) and Caedere weapon (+15) + jump pack (+20).

Any thoughts?

I like it! Its a very cool idea for a warlord and a squad. Looks like a great way to keep to the 12th legion's themes without taking a RoW. 

It's also a very strong unit choice for a Centurion-style list, and for smaller games. 

[Bodtfarm]

How has everyone been doing? It's been a while; what lists, units and builds are working? 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:17 PM, Bodtfarm said:

How has everyone been doing? It's been a while; what lists, units and builds are working? 

I'm waiting to see if they reveal plastic scimitar jetbikes. I think the Sky-Hunter Phalanx is a perfect RoW for the World Eater Legion Trait. The option of 16" movement with 20+ Multi-Meltas and 40ish heavy bolters all with excellent melee and plethora of attacks that can just about get turn 1 charges and can't be pinned just sounds like so much fun to try out!

[Cadmus Tyro]

So how’s everyone arming their XIIth legion contemptors these days? 
 

I was contemplating dual fists with plasma blasters, and running upfield. But is the extra attack worth losing more ranged potential?

 

cadmus 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

3 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

So how’s everyone arming their XIIth legion contemptors these days? 
 

I was contemplating dual fists with plasma blasters, and running upfield. But is the extra attack worth losing more ranged potential?

 

cadmus 

I think double grav-gun with fist+chainfist is the best melee variant for all options. Range wise 2x plasma Cannon or 1& a grav-fist is probably the thr best loadout. I run a melta-cannon + meltagun fist and it has been okay, I think the other versions are both superior.

[Lord Krungharr]

I played my buddy's Crimson Path (I think that's what it was) with 3xDespoilers and 3x Rampagers w all Falax Blades, and 10 Lascannons HSS, and he whooped the crud out of my IW FotA a few weeks ago.  But the first game I got him to concede turn 2, after my Siege Tyrants erased a Rampager Squad and my Dreads managed to charge in a sweep a couple, and the exploded ones took out a big chunk of Rampagers (Str 8 and bad armor saves!).  We switched table sides for that 2nd game and my army being not jumpy had to split around some center terrain, where as he could just hop over it, and he was aggressive with his cheapo Proteus speeders for Overwatch absorption.

 

WE are pretty fun.  Can't buy in now as I just bought a Gloomspite Gitz army.  But maybe later next year, and I can get Khârn!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Quote

Range wise 2x plasma Cannon or 1& a grav-fist is probably the thr best loadout.

 

Just....don't follow this advice. It can only do 1 hull point to vehicles, it needs a 4+ to get around armour saves, it doesn't cause instant death to marines and therefore doesn't ignore any feel no pain, can never target zooming flyers even with helical, non-breaching shots get bounced by Heavy, and it's output is tied to opponent spacing. Even pretending that it hits every shot, you still have a gets hot to pass and then average 0.5 ap2 breaches or 0.1 failed armour saves.

 

Pay 5 points less, take the gravis melta and excel at the task of killing vehicles and multiwound models. 

 

@Lord Krungharr yea crimson path is very strong, and takes a while to get into the rhythm of playing against. It can be particularly annoying for dreadnoughts, as they only hit with half their attacks against rampagers, need to wound, and then one of those successful wounds is ignored. And they'll just get crushed by the falax blades. I definitely feel like I have to play my best when my world eater buddy busts out the crimson path lol.

[Cadmus Tyro]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Just....don't follow this advice. It can only do 1 hull point to vehicles, it needs a 4+ to get around armour saves, it doesn't cause instant death to marines and therefore doesn't ignore any feel no pain, can never target zooming flyers even with helical, non-breaching shots get bounced by Heavy, and it's output is tied to opponent spacing. Even pretending that it hits every shot, you still have a gets hot to pass and then average 0.5 ap2 breaches or 0.1 failed armour saves.

 

Pay 5 points less, take the gravis melta and excel at the task of killing vehicles and multiwound models. 

 

@Lord Krungharr

Agreed, but I still wonder whether the additional attack is worth losing the gravis Melta, especially for the XIIth legion given the melee orientation. I need something to support my assault squads in a berserker assault list. 

Plasma blasters seem to be a better fist weapon option for dealing with other dreads. 

In my mind it’s either fist + chainfist or single fist and Gravis Melta, trying to decide which way to go. 
 

Cadmus 

[SkimaskMohawk]

56 minutes ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

Agreed, but I still wonder whether the additional attack is worth losing the gravis Melta, especially for the XIIth legion given the melee orientation. I need something to support my assault squads in a berserker assault list. 

Plasma blasters seem to be a better fist weapon option for dealing with other dreads. 

In my mind it’s either fist + chainfist or single fist and Gravis Melta, trying to decide which way to go. 
 

Cadmus 

 

Depends on how you want to play the wonky dreadnought bonus attack thing. If you're doing the intended 2ccw=4 attacks then I'd say probably take the gravis melta. If you're doing the raw 2ccw=5 attacks then probably not. Imo the fist weapon probably isn't too worth it unless you really need a couple more special weapon shots.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:00 PM, Cadmus Tyro said:

Agreed, but I still wonder whether the additional attack is worth losing the gravis Melta, especially for the XIIth legion given the melee orientation. I need something to support my assault squads in a berserker assault list. 

Plasma blasters seem to be a better fist weapon option for dealing with other dreads. 

In my mind it’s either fist + chainfist or single fist and Gravis Melta, trying to decide which way to go. 
 

Cadmus 

It depends on your meta. Grav and plasma are both excellent. Plasma having 2 large pie plates encompasses a large damage range on a wide variety of units and is also points efficient. Most lists are heavy infantry based. Grav forcing lower WS against rival dreads makes them a strong contention to plasma or melta in the in-built gun.

 

Deredeos are superior to anything Air-craft or AV related. so I put more focus on contemptors being focal points for well rounded lists.

 

 You can literally run anything you want. I've found for points efficiency and loadouts to counter a larger portion of enemy lists and looking at points efficiency plus return on investments my advice is solid.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Slips
Leave the snarky passive aggressive comments about others you dont like at the door

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm going to try and meet halfway and say that plasma cannon contemptors can fill a role, but it really requires a specific meta and army build for that role to be a) necessary and b) suited for the contemptors. But I still don't think world eaters are an army that will land in that niche:

 

If your meta has a lot of solar aux infantry and single wound 2+ save you'll find an environment where the plasma cannon will be quite efficient. If you have a list/collection where your fast attack and heavy support slots are occupied with the perfect storm of units that cant either blast 2+ or t3 4+, then the contemptor might be best platform to mount that weapon on as a result.

 

But, the heavy support and fast attack slots are filled with choices that excel at at either pumping out ap2 quality fire or ap4 weight of fire (and sometimes you get mass quality of fire depending on stuff); world eaters excelling at taking out chaf means you have that angle covered already. The flexibility of those two slots means that often one can compensate for the deficiency of the other; if you load HS with 6 Scorpii you can take a bunch of javelins or scimitars with dedicated anti tank. So going back to the "perfect storm" of unit choices, if you have 3x autocannon heavy supports and 3x bolter outriders or something then the contemptors are going to be the best place to get a concentrated source of mass removal and some ap2. 

 

And even ignoring all that, we can just compare a double plasma contemptor to 2 Scorpii. 225 for the tanks vs 195 for the dread, the 30 points difference getting you:

 

-12" longer range 

-barrage 

-strength 8

-rocket barrage 

 

Barrage allows you to ignore intervening cover, ignore the 24" cap in night fight, have better subsequent blasts, and hide from return fire. Strength 8 allows you to instant kill marine infantry with mult wounds and ignore fnp. Rocket barrage gives rending for always wounding 4s and higher threat for anti armour, as well as pinning. Imo it's well worth it; weaker defensive stats are mitigated by barrage, and heavy supports less slots is compensated by fast attack like I mentioned earlier. No reason to go double plasma other than rule of cool.

 

 

[Irate Khornate]

I've been loading up my contemptors with dual gravis lascannons or dual claw and inbuilt meltagun.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Interesting, well my thinking behind fist + chainfist + dual plasma blaster is the slight deterrent dual blasters give at short range to reaction fire.

 

So far in 2nd my contemptors are dying almost simultaneously to enemy contemptors. But invariably the eventual demise is in CC, so having an additional attack with brutal 3 will potentially tip the balance.

 

The plasma blasters are there to deter enemy contemptors from making a shooting attack prior to the charge. Whilst keeping Combi bolters is a cheaper option, it makes the choice about firing prior to a charge fairly easy. At least with blasters there’s a chance of retuning a wound. 
 

Melta guns in the fist maybe a little hit and miss, it’s too easy to dance outside of the 6” armour bane range, either by a withdrawal reaction, or if charging remaining 6.5” away from the target. At least with the blasters your fully effective range is 18”, which gives you a few more options.

 

cadmus 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[Snuggatron]

What are people’s thoughts on our exemplary battles unit, the Red Hand Destroyers? I’m debating tossing a unit of 10 into a 1500 point battle bros list, but I have no idea how to kit them out or if anything can join them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The only thing that hurts the Red Hand is 1 Wound, WS 4 & 3+ saves, that are rather expensive. Are you planning on giving them Jump packs?

 

Truthfully for what they bring, it would almost be better to just take a max squad of Scimitar Jetbikes with Multi-Meltas.

 

I think the best weapon combination is giving the entire unit Falax Blades, and 2 missile launchers; though I would probably takr thunder hammers instead.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Papewaio]

I've been toying with the idea of giving them meteor hammers - means they swing before other marines and are kicking out Instant Death attacks. I mean, you're relying on breaching, but better than nothing, no?