HH 2.0 The Unbroken Blade: XIVth Legion Tactica

[Beerhammer]

Looking for advise on DG now that the game has been out for a bit and people have cut their teeth. 
 

1. foot slogging for terminators, do they need a ride or does walking still work?

2. Same question but for tactical squads.

3. Last dreads, what kind of load out works well for the Three kinds minus the box dread.

[MSEpitaph]

7 hours ago, Beerhammer said:

Looking for advise on DG now that the game has been out for a bit and people have cut their teeth. 
 

1. foot slogging for terminators, do they need a ride or does walking still work?

2. Same question but for tactical squads.

3. Last dreads, what kind of load out works well for the Three kinds minus the box dread.

If you're using Cataphractii then foot slogging is proving to be fine imo, the key is using numbers. E.g. always run squads of more than 5, or multiple squads. A single squad of 5 Terminators of any kind is likely to get focused out of existence pretty quick, or if you're like me then you'll fail a morale on Grave Wardens and have them run off the board turn 1.... So if you've just got one squad of 5 of any type of Termi, then a Land Raider wouldn't go amiss.

Tacticals are weird one, mechanized infantry lists are actually pretty strong for Death Guard because of the Legion Astartes rule meaning all our vehicles can move their max distance and still shoot all weapons at full BS. Personally 2 or more squads of 15 Tacticals with a Vexilla and Artificer Armour on the Sergeant, foot slogging are pretty dang survivable... and pretty shooty too because even at 24" they're putting out 30 bolter shots (you can use Fury even when you move because of our Legion Astartes).

My current two favourite Contemptor loadouts are Dual Gravis Lascannons & Helical (just in case). Or the Chainfist & Claw, both with Plasma and a Havoc Launcher on top if you feel like it. I find Leviathans and Deredeos are overpriced (or actually fairly priced if we're being honest with how cheap Contemptors are) compared with Contemptors so I can't see any reason to not just take Contemptors and call it a day. Those Heavy Support slots are contested enough for Death Guard as it is!

[jaxom]

8 hours ago, MSEpitaph said:

Tacticals are weird one, mechanized infantry lists are actually pretty strong for Death Guard because of the Legion Astartes rule meaning all our vehicles can move their max distance and still shoot all weapons at full BS. Personally 2 or more squads of 15 Tacticals with a Vexilla and Artificer Armour on the Sergeant, foot slogging are pretty dang survivable... and pretty shooty too because even at 24" they're putting out 30 bolter shots (you can use Fury even when you move because of our Legion Astartes).

Agreed. Unless the Tactical Squads are riding in something other than a Rhino, keep them on foot. The extra shooting is worth it. Toss in an Apothecary or two, and/or keep them on an objective and even 10 man Tacticals are hard to move. I'm still up in the air on my preferred squad size, it may end up being dictated by what models I have.

8 hours ago, MSEpitaph said:

I find Leviathans and Deredeos are overpriced (or actually fairly priced if we're being honest with how cheap Contemptors are) compared with Contemptors so I can't see any reason to not just take Contemptors and call it a day. Those Heavy Support slots are contested enough for Death Guard as it is!

I think a key exception is if one is using Creeping Death. Any source of more phosphex is valuable, and the new plastic Leviathan kit is the best way to get decent range phosphex unless one is looking to break the bank for Rapiers or Aquitors.

[xxxjtmxxx]

but is phosphex really necessary? we have so much resources of cheap wounddealers, i dont see a use for phosphex. 

[jaxom]

It’s about board control. Phosphex lets you create zones of dangerous terrain or block approaches to objectives. Creeping Death lets your own troops walk right through it. Players lose out on a major perk if they just use Creeping Death for their deployment zone benefits.

[Gorgoff]

On 8/27/2022 at 12:26 AM, jaxom said:

It’s about board control. Phosphex lets you create zones of dangerous terrain or block approaches to objectives. Creeping Death lets your own troops walk right through it. Players lose out on a major perk if they just use Creeping Death for their deployment zone benefits.

Exactly this. You got to olay all advantages of your Rite of War. 

[Brother Sutek]

Hopefully I'll be able to convince my group to let me try phosphex again, we had a low key banning on it last edition as it became a problem with a few guys. 

[MSEpitaph]

I’m curious what the general consensus on Deathshroud is? Are they too expensive, are they best run as 2 or closer to the 10 model max as a full on death star, or just simply as a 2 or 3 man retinue with the standard…

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Brother Sutek said:

Hopefully I'll be able to convince my group to let me try phosphex again, we had a low key banning on it last edition as it became a problem with a few guys. 

I think it is less repressive in 2e, similar to the changes with artillery. I think you only need one or two longer range sources.

3 hours ago, MSEpitaph said:

I’m curious what the general consensus on Deathshroud is? Are they too expensive, are they best run as 2 or closer to the 10 model max as a full on death star, or just simply as a 2 or 3 man retinue with the standard…

They are an excellent bully unit against power armor, but can struggle against Terminators who have their own AP2 weapons. A unit of 5 puts out 20 (25 if they get charge bonus) WS5, Str6, AP3 attacks. Put them in a Proteus with an HQ and you have a nasty spear to thrust at Legion Tactical Squads on an objective. The HQ needs Master of the Legion for the Deathshroud to benefit from Retinue, but personally I like them with a Chaplain for Hatred(Everything).

[Brother Sutek]

I like the idea of them with a chaplain as well. 

[jaxom]

The soon to be released energy heavy weapon packs have me thinking about Night Fighting again. The move-and-shoot with multimeltas, I think, pairs well with Night Fighting. What do people think of a Death Guard (nee Dusk Raider) list that really leans into 24" ranges, Augury Scanners, and Nuncio-voxes?

[xxxjtmxxx]

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

The soon to be released energy heavy weapon packs have me thinking about Night Fighting again. The move-and-shoot with multimeltas, I think, pairs well with Night Fighting. What do people think of a Death Guard (nee Dusk Raider) list that really leans into 24" ranges, Augury Scanners, and Nuncio-voxes?

i think thats the way to go. both special rows could be used for it pretty good.

[jaxom]

I've been thinking about power scythes and other power weapon options (particularly on sergeants), and I'd appreciate if you all could double check my thinking on this.

It's taken some time to sink in that reaping blow is not the same as sweep attack. I'm just getting used to the idea that a power scythe may not be the best option, even for a character whose role is to kill as many grunts as possible outside of challenges. 

The scythe is two-handed so you can't get +1A for an additional close combat weapon, but reaping blow (1) gives an additional attack if in contact with more than one model. All that does though is compensate for being two-handed. A power maul is also +2 Str and AP3, but guaranteed three attacks when paired with a pistol. If there's any possibility of ending up a challenge, then I think the power maul is superior. The movement shenanigans of setting up a Challenge make me think that the Rend(6+) on the scythe isn't worth the possibility of only having two attacks compared to three with a with a power maul and pistol. Especially when you'd be getting the same number of attacks into grunts.

As pretty much everyone in power armor comes with a bolt pistol (or upgraded to another pistol), it seems like the power scythe is only useful on Terminators. 

Also, a follow up to something from earlier in the thread.

On 7/12/2022 at 9:55 AM, jaxom said:

what's the use of rad-missiles (i.e. rad-phage) now? It's on a per model basis, so tagging a multiple model unit seems less than ideal. I was thinking maybe against dreadnoughts and monstrous creatures?

Rad-missiles are useful on multi-wound Character squads like Invictus Suzerain squads. If they choose to pass the wounds around to avoid casualties then you can eventually shift the majority Toughness down by one. I don't think they are as useful as hitting them with ID'ing weapons, but those sorts of weapons will have other viable targets while rad-missiles don't.

[tinpact]

Fun little thing I thought of earlier: depending on how you rule when grenades take effect, you can take a HSS with lascannons in The Reaping with rad grenades and Instant Death T5 units with Overwatch.

[jaxom]

On 11/26/2022 at 10:59 PM, tinpact said:

Fun little thing I thought of earlier: depending on how you rule when grenades take effect, you can take a HSS with lascannons in The Reaping with rad grenades and Instant Death T5 units with Overwatch.

 

It took some cross-referencing, but I think you are right

 

Rad grenades. Liber Hereticus p. 143, emphasis added

Quote

During a turn in which a unit with at least one model with rad grenades successfully Charges, or is themselves successfully Charged, all models .... until the end of the Fight Sub-phase that follows the successful Charge.

What is a successful Charge? HH:AoD Rulebook p. 181, as part of the Assault phase's Charge sub-phase, under Roll Charge Distance, emphasis added

Quote

If any model in the target enemy unit is within the rolled Charge Distance, then the Charge is considered to be successful. The controlling player should now make a Charge Move.

A Charge becomes a Successfully Charged/Successful Charge after the Charge Distance is determined, but before the charging unit is moved, so rad grenades come into effect at the same time. When does Overwatch occur? HH:AoD Rulebook p. 160 regarding Reactions in the Assault Phase

Quote

Once the Active player has resolved all Charge Rolls, whether successful or not, but before any models are moved as part of either a Charge Move or Surge Move, the Reactive player may choose to expend one of their Reactions....

 Overwatch occurs after the Charge Roll, at which point Charge Distance is known and a Charge declared successful or not and the rad grenades are active if the Charge was successful.

 

This alters the dynamics for some weapon options (though I'm hesitant to call it a game changer). Overwatching with Rotor Cannons vs T3 is a much more attractive option, especially if you can get -3 to enemy Ld with Shell Shock and Visage of the Reaper. Disintegrators wounding on 2+ instead of 3+. Lascannons and melta-weapons ID'ing T5 units, plasma-weapons ID'ing T4 units, volkite calivers and culverins ID'ing T4 units. Multimeltas going from wounding Contemptors on 3+ to 2+.

[Brother Sutek]

I think I need to finish that lascannon support squad sooner than I planned.

[jaxom]

The interaction between Fury of the Legion and Remorseless came up in the 30k subreddit and forced me to formally approach the issue to counter supposed rules lawyers who insist that Stationary is not the same as not moving.

 

Quote

“Furthermore, as long as the model has not Run or used another alternative form of Movement in the controlling player’s Movement phase, it is counted as Stationary when making Shooting Attacks until the start of the controlling player’s next turn.“

Edit:

Regarding Fury of the Legion and "has not moved or Run during the Movement phase"

Summary:

Remorseless' shooting effect works with Fury of the Legion or Remorseless' shooting effect doesn't work at all.

Full explanation:

The core rules (big book p. 162) does have 'move' as a proper noun like it does with Stationary; Move(d) not a formal game state. Yet, there's no explicit definition of Stationary. Instead, here's the first mention of Stationary:

the Active player does not have to move all (or any) of their units - there are several advantages to remaining Stationary

There is no place in the rules where Stationary is otherwise defined. Stationary is formal game state of a unit (or model, as we'll see) not moving.

The rules for Which Models Are Moving (p, 163) is one of the best example of this, "[the Active player] must declare which models are remaining Stationary before moving the other models of that unit, otherwise the entire unit is considered to have moved." It's not that a model was Moved without having moved. Instead a moved model is not Stationary. This reinforces the binary state of moved or Stationary established on p. 162.

The other place where we can clearly see this design intent and the rule's implementations of these states is the rules for Heavy weapons.

The full text on p. 177 does not refer to Stationary, but uses "if [the firer]...moved in the preceding Movement phase" instead. Then the text on p. 179 (below the illustrations) uses Stationary: "If [the firer]...remains Stationary.... If the firer moved," showing the binary between moved and Stationary, and that Stationary is the same game state as not-moving or not-moved. Otherwise, the actual rule (on p. 177, not the summary on p. 197) for Heavy Weapons means that Remorseless's second half doesn't do anything because the Death Guard unit would still have "moved in the preceding Movement phase" and Stationary isn't mentioned.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's a difference in reading and analyzing the rules as written to figure out the intent, and reading the rules as they're written and leaving it at that.

 

Part of actual legal interpretation is to read things in a way to avoid absurdities. The 30k rules are frankly written unprofessionally, with a lot of inconsistent terminology and a lack of quality passes; applying pure raw interpretation will make half the mechanics break down. 

 

You get a case like this where both terms are used interchangeably throughout the rules, sometimes in reference to the same mechanic. Trying to pretend that they're obviously different mechanics results in an absurd situation, and should be avoided as a result. 

[jaxom]

Two interesting bits from today's FAQ's and Legacy:

1. Retinues and Dedicated Transports count towards a Primarch's point total for percentage of your force. Not a big deal for us because Mortarion is a loner.
2. Davinite Serpent Priest can be taken as a non-compulsary HQ, can't be warlord, has a psychic power to heal a wound. Could be interesting paired up with some form of Terminator, or to really ramp up Mortarion's regeneration.

[Foudroyant Virus]

Had my first game with the DG today. Went with two blocks of 15 tacticals, backed up by heavy supports (MM and Lascas). The punching fist were typhon and 5 graveqardens in a landraider and a bit more stuff.

 

i was completely underwhelmed by the fury of the legion of the tacticals. Even with 44 shots from 15 tacticals into assault marines you just keep hitting artificer armour(a chaplain and the seargent) plus a fnp. 
so even with our bonus of being stationary i just cant see them to be of any use appart from just scoring objectives in the last round.

 

grav cannons were meh' as well with their limited range and the masses of heavy units.

 

my heavy support squads worked well, but nemesis veterans are still a thing i have no idea how to counter. With an augury scanner you are not able to shock anything near them (like alchem destroyers), nor can you outshoot them if they are more than 48" away.

 

how do you deal with nemesis veterans in a good vantage point without using nemesis bolters as well?

 

typhon was a beast by the way. Radgrenades with lacrimae and his witchpower gets you 7 attacks average on the charge in initiative with AP2 and instant death. Hitting almost everything on a 2+. Not to mention his shooting potential. That is really cool!

[Brother Sutek]

In my DG I don't usually use tacticals as I've found assault marines work better for my play style. I am otherwise very terminator heavy as I field two units of grave warden and a big unit of Deathshroud to babysit Typhon. The new rules for wound allocation are annoying with artificer armour but even with just bolters if you throw enough at it the dice will eventually happen. I deal with it more with close combat but I also don't have to worry about crazy multiple nemesis bolter units. One or two is usually the max. I can only suggest a unit in a rhino with meltas or as I do it terminators. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 hours ago, Foudroyant Virus said:

Had my first game with the DG today. Went with two blocks of 15 tacticals, backed up by heavy supports (MM and Lascas). The punching fist were typhon and 5 graveqardens in a landraider and a bit more stuff.

 

i was completely underwhelmed by the fury of the legion of the tacticals. Even with 44 shots from 15 tacticals into assault marines you just keep hitting artificer armour(a chaplain and the seargent) plus a fnp. 
so even with our bonus of being stationary i just cant see them to be of any use appart from just scoring objectives in the last round.

 

grav cannons were meh' as well with their limited range and the masses of heavy units.

 

my heavy support squads worked well, but nemesis veterans are still a thing i have no idea how to counter. With an augury scanner you are not able to shock anything near them (like alchem destroyers), nor can you outshoot them if they are more than 48" away.

 

how do you deal with nemesis veterans in a good vantage point without using nemesis bolters as well?

 

typhon was a beast by the way. Radgrenades with lacrimae and his witchpower gets you 7 attacks average on the charge in initiative with AP2 and instant death. Hitting almost everything on a 2+. Not to mention his shooting potential. That is really cool!

 

Yea, you seem to have run into the reality of basic mass of attacks.  When you can take 2+ armour, stack FNP up to 4+, have multiple wounds, and you can allocate to the tankiest boys without reprecussions, then basic weight of fire falls off. Tacs in general are a speedbump, with fury making them a slightly larger annoyance; they shouldn't really be seen as a damage unit, but as a supplemental one. 

 

Grav guns only really work against dreads and vehicles. They're really good at that niche, but they're really bad against normal units; because of the strength test it's essentially a str 3 blast that doesn't cut through armour. 

 

A Scorpius will deal with nemesis veterans. They don't get bonus cover or heavy, so every failed 3+ armour or 5+ cover sees an entire model dead. You can shoot from out of line of sight, and even in line of sight it has front av 13.

 

And Typhon is great. He actually averages out 8 attacks with the power because of reaping blow. That being said, he only hits most things on 3s, he'd need WS 8 for 2s. Still wounds everything on 2s rerolling 1s though 

[jaxom]

I like Recon marines with nemesis bolters for sniping sergeants.

[HeinzD]

Siegebreakers, many of us use them for the Creeping Death RoW, but im interested in how your using yours.

Mines hanging with a HSS with autocanons, sunder on those is so sweet.

So, please let me know what you run yours with

[jaxom]

Multimeltas, because then he'll eventually be in range to toss those phosphex grenages, too.