HH 2.0 The Pyre Guard: XVIIIth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Salamanders in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[caladancid]

Salamanders this edition seem almost the exact same as last!

Working on a mech infantry list with the new rhino kits. Probably will put Pyros into a Land Raider, I still think they are good value. 

[arnesh88]

Yeah, Salamanders seem to be more rounded this edition instead of hyper focus on flame weapons. They look to be a bit better on dealing with units that assault them with their advanced reaction, dragon’s breath weapons, and defensive melee options, along with some morale resistance.

I am a little worried with their chapter tactic being very niche. Not sure how common Volkite, plasma, and melta weapons will be. Probably the thing I would say about their legion is that rules wise, they are one of the least “flashy”.

Firedrakes seem toned down (they’re no longer unique in their durability), but Pyroclasts got a huge glow up from previously. Even if you take out that comparison, paying an additional 3 ppm vs a melta gun support marine to get: +1 wound, 2+ save, 5+ situational invul, +1 Leadership, Dragon’s Breath Heavy Flamer optional shooting attack, +2 attacks (+1 base plus bolt pistol and ccw) and land raider dedicated transport option.

[caladancid]

11 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

Yeah, Salamanders seem to be more rounded this edition instead of hyper focus on flame weapons. They look to be a bit better on dealing with units that assault them with their advanced reaction, dragon’s breath weapons, and defensive melee options, along with some morale resistance.

I am a little worried with their chapter tactic being very niche. Not sure how common Volkite, plasma, and melta weapons will be. Probably the thing I would say about their legion is that rules wise, they are one of the least “flashy”.

Firedrakes seem toned down (they’re no longer unique in their durability), but Pyroclasts got a huge glow up from previously. Even if you take out that comparison, paying an additional 3 ppm vs a melta gun support marine to get: +1 wound, 2+ save, 5+ situational invul, +1 Leadership, Dragon’s Breath Heavy Flamer optional shooting attack, +2 attacks (+1 base plus bolt pistol and ccw) and land raider dedicated transport option.

I really like Pyroclasts in this edition. 

And definitely agree with the not flashy. I do hope we get some new head upgrades soon, I feel like it might be a bit of a wait though. 

[Galron]

This is one of the three chapters I am paint scheme theory crafting with. I just cant get a decent dark green I am happy with(I despise the neon green salamanders). I might look into 40k Dark Angel green tutorials but I think I would rather have a dark olive green as opposed to a forest green. Any ideas or suggestions?

I think we are going to see a huge amount of melta and volkite weapons, especially initially since Contemptors(and FotA) are the current hotness followed by Spartans and people are going to be equipping their forces to account for them. 

Fire Drakes appear to have had a points reduction from last edition where they were stupidly overpriced despite how good they seemed to be. 

Im potentially looking at a small force as an allied traitor detachment. I like the idea of a disillusioned bunch of survivors that said "Screw it, let's aim to misbehave."

As I have the models for both special units I am trying to come up with about 1250 of them(at this point). Really just thinking a pair of tac support squads, a pair of tacticals, 5 drakes and 5 pyroclasts(until I get 5 more of each) in drop pods/dread claw. I havent done the points yet. This is Heresy, I am more into rule of cool than absolute stomp the opponent. 

 

[SmorcInc]

On 6/28/2022 at 12:08 PM, arnesh88 said:

Yeah, Salamanders seem to be more rounded this edition instead of hyper focus on flame weapons. They look to be a bit better on dealing with units that assault them with their advanced reaction, dragon’s breath weapons, and defensive melee options, along with some morale resistance.

I am a little worried with their chapter tactic being very niche. Not sure how common Volkite, plasma, and melta weapons will be. Probably the thing I would say about their legion is that rules wise, they are one of the least “flashy”.

Firedrakes seem toned down (they’re no longer unique in their durability), but Pyroclasts got a huge glow up from previously. Even if you take out that comparison, paying an additional 3 ppm vs a melta gun support marine to get: +1 wound, 2+ save, 5+ situational invul, +1 Leadership, Dragon’s Breath Heavy Flamer optional shooting attack, +2 attacks (+1 base plus bolt pistol and ccw) and land raider dedicated transport option.

I'd say firedrakes got buffed, access to a 3++ and having iwnd on a defent number (medicaes give rerolls to that now for infantry and maybe cav) are already decent. Hammers being brutal 2 and free hit rolls of 1 rerolls (to replace master crafted sure) are hugely helpful for creating a top tier melee unit.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Sooo…Salamander Nullifactors seem pretty spicy. Shields and disintegrators would be awesome looking, and I could totally see Jurr rolling with some scary demon smashers.

[caladancid]

I think people are really sleeping on Salamanders dreads. I have seen plenty of discussion about dreads in general, but Salamanders are left off the list of best legions.

The -1 to wound the weapons (meltas) that would be most often used against them is going to be great.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I think they are sleeping on Salamanders in general and the XVIIIth is going to prove to be a lot more solid than people think.

[Valkyrion]

On 6/30/2022 at 1:22 PM, Galron said:

This is one of the three chapters I am paint scheme theory crafting with. I just cant get a decent dark green I am happy with(I despise the neon green salamanders). I might look into 40k Dark Angel green tutorials but I think I would rather have a dark olive green as opposed to a forest green. Any ideas or suggestions?

 

I had settled on contrast Dark Angels Green over Corax White spray, topped off with a bit of a drybrush from something like Elysian green (I forget exactly which, but not the neon green), but I'm going to test out both the new white spray and DA Green over wraithbone. I know it's not Salamanders green, but if you slap a white dragon head and paint any details yellow or orange instead of red or bone then it looks surprisingly un-Dark Angely. 

The Covenant of Fire gives us plenty of 'ObSec' units that fill our niches nicely and I think is a better way to go than Fury of the Ancients. Pryoclasts and Flamer SS line troop choices are nice distractions that need dealing with, allowing your tactical squads to mooch about unmolested, plus a 20 man tactical squad is a great choice for the unique reaction and flamepreds as a troops choice is just icing on a very hot cake. 

 

 

[Galron]

I have tested about 2 dozen models so far in various schemes for both SoH and Salamanders. At this rate I am going to burn through various spray primer cans lol. Ill give your method a try, Valk and see how it comes out. I think I finally nailed down my SoH scheme but am still not entirely happy with it. I am going to wait for the new emerald contrast paint and see if I like that one better and also see if it might work better on Sallies. I am finding many of the tutorials on youtube do not have accurate colors on screen. I followed one that on video was a brilliant sea green but doing the exact thing he did and even skipping one of the inks(on another model) they ended up dark teal messes.  I finally merged a few techniques and found something passable. Going to finish painting them and see if I like the finished product. So glad my primary two armies are so much easier to me to finish but then it probably took me just as long to figure those out too, just I did it years ago. 

I might reverse my plan though and go salamanders as a heavy ground mechanized force. I have several Sicarians, the spartan and so forth and then go terminator heavy with the SoH with deep strikes and a dreadclaw. 

 

[Chronotonic]

I liked the Traitor Warlord trait...I thought was a neat thing there...gives me a reason to play "bad salamanders" now

[arnesh88]

15 hours ago, Capitano said:

I liked the Traitor Warlord trait...I thought was a neat thing there...gives me a reason to play "bad salamanders" now

I also think it's neat, but after playing around with some ideas in my head, it's a lot more limited in effectiveness than I initially thought.

Heavy Flamers, Volkite Culverin, and Volkite Calivers already wound most of their intended targets on 2+. The most they would do is make them more likely to wound Dreadnoughts.

Options are quite limited, but I think some careful shaving and conversion work with the special weapons kit Volkite Chargers to put on Cataphractii or Tartaros terminators would be a cool idea for a brutal, heretical unit.

[The Scorpion]

On 7/11/2022 at 1:32 AM, Capitano said:

I liked the Traitor Warlord trait...I thought was a neat thing there...gives me a reason to play "bad salamanders" now

The pdf with rules for Cassian Dracos and Xiaphas Jurr mentionned that the Disciples of the Flame were drawn "down a dark path long since hidden within the Salamanders secret vaults".

Do you think their obsession with fire, rebirth, and divination, led them to the Chaos, even if they fought traitors during the Heresy?

[Etruscan]

Apologies for going a little off-topic here but honestly I was a little bit surprised to find out that the Salamanders could be Traitors in the Liber Astartes. My understanding was they they totally eschewed all approaches from the Word Bearers to have their Chaplains integrated into the Salamanders (mainly because of the strength of their Promethean beliefs). Hence they had none of the Lodges which were an integral part of certain Legions becoming Traitors and/or turning to Chaos.

I can understand the suggestion that the Disciples of Flame could have turned to Chaos but personally I felt that they were redacted because the strength of their beliefs went too far into worship. The Salamanders being the most 'moral' (in the loosest sense) of the Legions and the treachery they faced at Istvaan lead me to struggle to see how they would have turned to Chaos; most were wiped out on Istvaan and those few survivors from there became part of the Shattered Legions and of course there were handful left on Nocturne before Istvaan. Anyway, I digress.

Ona another note does anyone have suggestions for kitting out Salamanders Legion Veteran and Support squads?

[The Scorpion]

Legion Veterans I like to keep cheap. I'm not one to upgrade everyone to a power weapon or combi, but I like the idea of them being a proto-codex tactical squad.

I'd bling the sargeants, more for modelling than actual gameplay, give a melta to one marine and a flamer to another. If the squad is going to melee, I'd buy some kind of bayonet, but not power weapons.

[Chronotonic]

10 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

Legion Veterans I like to keep cheap. I'm not one to upgrade everyone to a power weapon or combi, but I like the idea of them being a proto-codex tactical squad.

I'd bling the sargeants, more for modelling than actual gameplay, give a melta to one marine and a flamer to another. If the squad is going to melee, I'd buy some kind of bayonet, but not power weapons.

it is a slippery slope...I perfect a weapon or two in the squad but if we go to deep they fall to the way side quickly to simple bolter fire

[The Scorpion]

True, but veterans are multi-wound models. They benefit from legion rules.

[arnesh88]

Once i have enough bits and spare models, I'm thinking of kitting out a veteran squad with hand flamers, flamers/heavy flamers, and chainswords, with a spattering of power weapons. Mostly to keep with the fluff, but it's still a lot of shredding attacks and decent strength templates. But it would be a primarily "for fun" unit. I don't think it will be that strong.

On another note, as I have learned the "hard way" in a recent game, our Flamer Support Squads (and other similar units) are a bad match up vs a lot of legions if attempted to use offensively, due to Advanced Reactions for a lot of legions. They're too easy to counter charge, preventing them from overwatching. I got slaughtered by Blood Angels when they used their advanced reaction, and I know on the Loyalist Side alone, you have SW, IF, BA able to do so, with WS and RG able to move out of range.

I'm making adjustments of how to handle this by looking at either making them 5-man squads to make it less likely to expend those Advanced reactions for such a small squad, Reserves to keep them safe and maybe catch an enemy off guard, or dedicate them to holding mid-field objectives vs assaulting armies with Consuls to keep them alive. Any other suggestions?

[Valkyrion]

Target saturation? 
Your opponent can only do one reaction per phase, normally, which is made easier if there is only one thing to react against, so run two or three units of flamer SS, pyroclasts, heavy flamer HSS and so on. If the opponent uses their advanced reaction early then you might lose a unit, but you know they've lost their reaction and can react accordingly. 

 

[arnesh88]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:41 AM, Valkyrion said:

Target saturation? 
Your opponent can only do one reaction per phase, normally, which is made easier if there is only one thing to react against, so run two or three units of flamer SS, pyroclasts, heavy flamer HSS and so on. If the opponent uses their advanced reaction early then you might lose a unit, but you know they've lost their reaction and can react accordingly. 

 

You're not wrong that target saturation is an option. I don't plan to spam too much flame template weapons because I think there are going to be so many Heavy sub-type units played that I run the risk of them being made completely ineffective. Terminators and Heavy Support squads (and their legion special unit equivalents), plus Breacher Squads and any legion units that use breacher shields, etc. I have a pyroclast unit and a TSS with dragon's breath flamers, and I'm holding off on getting more until I see where I need to shore up my weaknesses.

Edited July 26, 2022 by arnesh88

[arnesh88]

What is everyone's opinion on what legions act as the best allies to Salamanders? I know we don't have the Mechanicum and Imperial Army rules yet (so I'm leaving them out of the discussion for now), but I wanted to explore the rare benefit of Salamanders having literally the "friendliest" relationships on the allies chart.

For reference, we have:

Sworn Brothers - Dark Angels, Emperor's Children, White Scars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard

Fellow Warriors - Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion

Distrusted Allies - Everyone else (World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons (really, that's all?))

Stuff to consider: Consuls/Special Characters that can join or benefit Salamanders units (psykers are a good example), units that salamanders characters can join that both benefit from, units that offset our weaknesses, advanced reactions that an allied unit can use that is impactful enough to warrant that unit's inclusion, unit compositions that are just really solid on their own, etc.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I finally got my first game in yesterday, and boy was it a blast. I can't say our legion rules came into play a whole lot, though the +1 ld vs pinning came in to play a fair amount due to my opponent dropping scorpius shots everywhere. Things I noted:

-Pyroclasts had a lot more staying power than I anticipated. I had a small 5 man squad sitting on an objective, and they weathered quite a bit of fury of the legion. I fully anticipated them getting wiped. They aren't Heavy, though, so watch out for that.

-Firedrakes rule super hard, but mixed weapons are not super useful. I had an axe and a maul tossed in my squad because those are how I built them, but, all it did was take power fist attacks away from punching a dreadnought. I used our special reaction on them when they got charged by Typhus and some death shroud, and it helped, but BOY rad grenades took the shine off of the 'Drakes. They really got eaten up.

-IWND worked a couple times, but wasn't a big deal. Having the debuff to incoming melta fire was great, as was debuffing the incoming poisoned flamers.

-I am not sure about my breachers. They don't seem like they have much more staying power than a normal tac squad sitting on an objective, and they are a fair few more points. I suppose they can hit a little harder with their melta guns and can be in a termite, which may be something I try next. Otherwise, I may save them for ZM (which is appropriate anyway)

-Having the extra reaction in the shooting phase from the warlord was suuper awesome. Since I had two land raiders getting shot at, having both of them returning fire with all their guns was a really gnarly deterrent.

Anyway, those are my first few thoughts. My list was 2k and was approximately:

Cataphracti Praetor: Chainfist, shield, cloak (I mis-deployed him and he did nothing)
2 Contemptors: gravis plas, heavy flamer (these laid waste to some tacticals turn 1, the plasma was really gnarly)

2 Land Raiders: one with 5 fire drakes and one with 5 pyroclasts and my praetor. My thought was that the Drakes would be enough of a threat on their own, and the pyros backed up by my praetor would be able to dish out serious hurt as well. But, in the end, I wouldn't do it that way again. The pyros were better off just sitting their asses on an objective, and the praetor would definitely have changed the math in the firedrakes/deathshround/typhus/contemptors brawl that really decided the game.

15 tacticals: Sat on my objective and never moved. Solid.

10 Breachers: ehhhh, I need to find a better way to use them. They reached their objective that I wanted them to sit on, but they got pretty beat up.

Things I may do:

-Replace the breachers with more tacticals and use the extra points to get apothecaries

-Drop a dread and find some points for a third land raider to put my breachers in

-Add a barebones recon squad, just to pop up somewhere and threaten stuff or grab an objective

-Drop the Praetor down to a Delegatus and give the breachers a termite

Anyway, I'm not sure if this is useful information for anyone or not, but I thought I would put words down here in case I forget what I was thinking later/ to try and get someone smarter than me to offer advice.

*EDIT*
Looks like I blew it and needed to include a champion to get the convenant of fire rite! Forgot about that. That's ok, though, because the objective that the pyroclasts "scored" was worth zero VPs. As was the other objective I held.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ripper.McGuirl

[arnesh88]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:19 PM, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I finally got my first game in yesterday, and boy was it a blast. I can't say our legion rules came into play a whole lot, though the +1 ld vs pinning came in to play a fair amount due to my opponent dropping scorpius shots everywhere. Things I noted:

-Pyroclasts had a lot more staying power than I anticipated. I had a small 5 man squad sitting on an objective, and they weathered quite a bit of fury of the legion. I fully anticipated them getting wiped. They aren't Heavy, though, so watch out for that.

-Firedrakes rule super hard, but mixed weapons are not super useful. I had an axe and a maul tossed in my squad because those are how I built them, but, all it did was take power fist attacks away from punching a dreadnought. I used our special reaction on them when they got charged by Typhus and some death shroud, and it helped, but BOY rad grenades took the shine off of the 'Drakes. They really got eaten up.

-IWND worked a couple times, but wasn't a big deal. Having the debuff to incoming melta fire was great, as was debuffing the incoming poisoned flamers.

-I am not sure about my breachers. They don't seem like they have much more staying power than a normal tac squad sitting on an objective, and they are a fair few more points. I suppose they can hit a little harder with their melta guns and can be in a termite, which may be something I try next. Otherwise, I may save them for ZM (which is appropriate anyway)

-Having the extra reaction in the shooting phase from the warlord was suuper awesome. Since I had two land raiders getting shot at, having both of them returning fire with all their guns was a really gnarly deterrent.

Anyway, those are my first few thoughts. My list was 2k and was approximately:

Cataphracti Praetor: Chainfist, shield, cloak (I mis-deployed him and he did nothing)
2 Contemptors: gravis plas, heavy flamer (these laid waste to some tacticals turn 1, the plasma was really gnarly)

2 Land Raiders: one with 5 fire drakes and one with 5 pyroclasts and my praetor. My thought was that the Drakes would be enough of a threat on their own, and the pyros backed up by my praetor would be able to dish out serious hurt as well. But, in the end, I wouldn't do it that way again. The pyros were better off just sitting their asses on an objective, and the praetor would definitely have changed the math in the firedrakes/deathshround/typhus/contemptors brawl that really decided the game.

15 tacticals: Sat on my objective and never moved. Solid.

10 Breachers: ehhhh, I need to find a better way to use them. They reached their objective that I wanted them to sit on, but they got pretty beat up.

Things I may do:

-Replace the breachers with more tacticals and use the extra points to get apothecaries

-Drop a dread and find some points for a third land raider to put my breachers in

-Add a barebones recon squad, just to pop up somewhere and threaten stuff or grab an objective

-Drop the Praetor down to a Delegatus and give the breachers a termite

Anyway, I'm not sure if this is useful information for anyone or not, but I thought I would put words down here in case I forget what I was thinking later/ to try and get someone smarter than me to offer advice.

*EDIT*
Looks like I blew it and needed to include a champion to get the convenant of fire rite! Forgot about that. That's ok, though, because the objective that the pyroclasts "scored" was worth zero VPs. As was the other objective I held.

Breachers are very niche in general. They mostly rely on opponents bringing lots of blast weapons that don't have AP 3. As cool as I think they look, I have a tough time considering including them. Especially considering that Tacticals with an Apothecary are somewhat similar in points, and when on objectives, get a 4+ FNP.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah, I am wondering if I stick them in a termite and have them joined by the mandatory champion I forgot, if they'd be a pretty tough thing you'd have to deal with right away or they'll steal your backfield objective from you and stay there forever.