HH 2.0 The Pyre Guard: XVIIIth Legion Tactica

[Chronotonic]

3 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Yeah, I am wondering if I stick them in a termite and have them joined by the mandatory champion I forgot, if they'd be a pretty tough thing you'd have to deal with right away or they'll steal your backfield objective from you and stay there forever.

They are usually good in super dense terrain games or Zone Mortalis for the same reasons...the invuln save is nice but only a 5++ and not to be relied on...

 

but it is still fun to watch a 15 man blob take that strength 10 demolition shell in 1.0 and walk out with 12 guys and they still have their melta guns

[Bung]

Friend of mine mentioned this:

Not exactly fluffy i admit but interesting.

Legion Destroyers can have Hand Flamers.

That would mean Destroyers get a pair of Dragons Breath Handflamers.

Up to 20 Templates and every model gets 2 d6 Wall of Flame Attacks.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I mean 20 hand flamers sounds like Salamanders to me.

[Chronotonic]

21 hours ago, Bung said:

Friend of mine mentioned this:

Not exactly fluffy i admit but interesting.

Legion Destroyers can have Hand Flamers.

That would mean Destroyers get a pair of Dragons Breath Handflamers.

Up to 20 Templates and every model gets 2 d6 Wall of Flame Attacks.

add rad grenades and wound one 4+'s instead of 5"s

[Bung]

2 hours ago, Capitano said:

add rad grenades and wound one 4+'s instead of 5"s

Dragonsbreath Handflamers come with S4 

[Chronotonic]

31 minutes ago, Bung said:

Dragonsbreath Handflamers come with S4 

EVEN BETTER

 

Sorry Im old... I remember hand flamers being S3

[Bung]

40 minutes ago, Capitano said:

EVEN BETTER

 

Sorry Im old... I remember hand flamers being S3

They are, but Salamanders get better Flamers for free.

[arnesh88]

What are peoples' thoughts on the Flame Predators for Covenant of Fire? Or just Flame Predator squads in general? I don't think they are amazing, but are they passable? Do they have enough strengths to justify their inclusion? Or are they just trash?

My initial thoughts are that they are relatively cheap, decent speed, and have the torrent flame weapon, and relatively same cost as a decently equipped tactical squad. However, they are not hard to take down when opponent has anti-tank weapons (which lascannons are kind of king right now), and the decent number of Heavy sub type units being resistant to template weapons.

Just for reference, a full 4-vehicle squad is 495 barebones.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Personally, for 500 pts, I would rather have a land raider full of pyroclasts. But, maybe as we see more non-marine armies that many flamers will feel more useful.

That said, I am sure you will get use out of them and now and again you will get some spectacular burnination.

[Etruscan]

Is anyone running Veteran Squads or Tactical Support Squads? And if so, how are you kitting them out? 

I've also always been intrigued about trying to make a Salamanders Reconnaissance squad viable, based mostly on the HH novels (I forgot exactly which novel) during Istvaan where you can read about Nemetor's squad. I seem to remember the description was that for the most they went helmless and carried chainswords and short nose sniper guns/bolters?

[arnesh88]

On 9/18/2022 at 3:54 PM, Etruscan said:

Is anyone running Veteran Squads or Tactical Support Squads? And if so, how are you kitting them out? 

I've also always been intrigued about trying to make a Salamanders Reconnaissance squad viable, based mostly on the HH novels (I forgot exactly which novel) during Istvaan where you can read about Nemetor's squad. I seem to remember the description was that for the most they went helmless and carried chainswords and short nose sniper guns/bolters?

I want to try a vet squad with chainswords and dragon’s breath flame pistols/flamers. I think it would be a fun build that stands out from other options.

tactical support squads: flamers are the go-to. Other options I’ve considered are rotor cannons to get some pinning in the army.

[Etruscan]

6 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

I want to try a vet squad with chainswords and dragon’s breath flame pistols/flamers. I think it would be a fun build that stands out from other options.

tactical support squads: flamers are the go-to. Other options I’ve considered are rotor cannons to get some pinning in the army.

Thanks for the reply, seems like this thread is a little on the quiet side!

I figured that Flamers would be the go-to option for Support squads but I am considering Rotor Cannons or perhaps Volkite too, just to have a bit of variation. I'm intrigued to see what Exemplary Battle unit the Salamanders get too.

Also for anti-armour I'm torn between a Melta squad of some sort or to invest in a Sicaran Venator. I'd also love to get my hands on a Glaive simply because apparently the Salamanders were rather keen on them but those are pricey.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Etruscan
Typo

[arnesh88]

10 hours ago, Etruscan said:

Thanks for the reply, seems like this thread is a little on the quiet side!

I figured that Flamers would be the go-to option for Support squads but I am considering Rotor Cannons or perhaps Volkite too, just to have a bit of variation. I'm intrigued to see what Exemplary Battle unit the Salamanders get too.

Also for anti-armour I'm torn between a Melta squad of some sort or to invest in a Sicaran Venator. I'd also love to get my hands on a Glaive simply because apparently the Salamanders were rather keen on them but those are pricey.

Agreed it’s really quiet on this legion. It might pick up more if there are more events with competitive play, like Adepticon next year.

It’s really hard for me to consider melta tactical support squads while we have access to Pyroclasts, outside of “budget constraints”. They’re only 3 points per model more than the melta equipped support marines, and the get so many extra things (additional wound, extra attacks, better leadership, 2+ save, 5++ situational, better IWND, option to use the heavy flamer profile, etc). And unlike terminators, they can have an apothecary. They’re probably up there as one of the best legion-specific units in the game, which is a complete 180 from last edition. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by arnesh88

[Ripper.McGuirl]

So, how are people doin with the XVIIIth these days? I have unsurprisingly been doing very well with them in ZM games.
 

I am struggling a little more on open boards. I seem to be just having a hard time getting stuff where I want it, whether from transports getting taken out too early, things using Withdraw reactions to escape, and not being able to use deepstrikes in one rite and jump packs in the other.

 

I have just started to try Awakening Fire and a warmonger. I think it’s going to be fun, but I end up having a lot of points invested on characters, since we need the chaplain with that Rite.

 

I am also going to start trying some allies. First up will be a Raven Guard Recon force to give me some friends jump pack face ripping and sniping benefits.

 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

More quiet here than I expected!

I tried dropping in a squad of 10 fear causing heavy flamers with a warmonger. It went pretty well. I ate two different fury of the legion rounds and they still did about a billion wounds with their flamers. I made the mistake of trying to keep my warmonger cheap and only gave him a tabar, nothing else. Next time I will give him tartaros armor, a shield, and some kind of weapon.

Honestly I keep coming back to just wanting more pyroclasts and fire drakes.

[arnesh88]

On 2/26/2023 at 10:11 PM, Ripper.McGuirl said:

So, how are people doin with the XVIIIth these days? I have unsurprisingly been doing very well with them in ZM games.
 

I am struggling a little more on open boards. I seem to be just having a hard time getting stuff where I want it, whether from transports getting taken out too early, things using Withdraw reactions to escape, and not being able to use deepstrikes in one rite and jump packs in the other.

 

I have just started to try Awakening Fire and a warmonger. I think it’s going to be fun, but I end up having a lot of points invested on characters, since we need the chaplain with that Rite.

 

I am also going to start trying some allies. First up will be a Raven Guard Recon force to give me some friends jump pack face ripping and sniping benefits.

 

Sorry, I totally missed this post. Salamanders players tend to be pretty quiet, I've noticed. I think I'm one of the more active ones.

 

The legion, as you have noticed, is totally bipolar in ZM vs Regular games. If I'm being kind, they're in a really rough spot from both rules writing and personal experience. While their rules are fluffy, they don't adapt to the new edition well at all.

If you don't want to read the giant list below here's the TL;DR: They are playable, but they have to rely on the strengths of Space Marines more than the strength of their legion rules. Some legions are naturally strong or fun when leaning into their legion rules. Salamanders feel like they kneecap themselves. Unless you lean into Dreadnoughts, then people don't want to be your friend, and IH still do it better.

 

Legion Trait: Borderline useless. Nobody but other salamanders use flamers, volkite is rare outside of Volkite Culverins (they put out so many shots that it doesn't even matter), Plasma mostly cares about the 4+ Breaching making the -1 wound barely matter, and melta is used against vehicles (which don't benefit from this rule) or for instant death purposes (better than nothing, but is very weak). 6+ IWND is a terrible rule, it's a waste of dice rolling, and I never encountered a game where it came into effect (10+ games at this point).

 

Advanced Reaction: Better than people rate it, I think it's really strong. While I don't mind the downside all too much, it's more of a "but why kick us while we're down" sort of reaction from my end.

 

Warlord Traits: They're fine. The loyalist and neutral ones are decent. Traitor one is not as strong as people think, since Volkite weapons (outside of chargers or serpentas) wound on a 2+ against their intended targets anyways. Mostly only matters vs Dreads and some vehicles, and even then, you should be using different weapons.

Artifice and Flame: Master crafting isn't cheaper for Independent Characters, and is too expensive for a lot of your sergeants/apothecaries. There's only 2 instances of replacing Heavy Bolters with Dragon's Breath HF that actually matter: Sky-hunters and Land Raiders/Spartans. All other instances already replace Heavy Bolters with Heavy Flamers, so it feels kinda pointless to include this?

Dragon's Breath Weapons: Flamers just suck this edition, flat out. Movement Reactions make it extremely hard to actually hit something on the offense, Heavy Sub-types are common, and the fact that Overwatching now uses full BS just almost voids them. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to make them 'ok', which you can just use a different weapon at that point for similar results. If you play against assault armies, there's more opportunities, but against a gunline, you're up :cuss:-creak without a paddle.

 

Dragonscale Storm Shields: It's good. Still salty that IF have a better version, but it is what it is, and we would use it on catephractii most of the time anyways.

 

Elder Drake Mantle: Too expensive for what it does. While UM have a cheaper version (with additional rule), that one can only be worn by Artificer Armour, while ours can be worn by terminators. Still too much.

 

Psychic Powers: Seriously? We can only take it with a certain rite of war?

 

Rites of War: Covenant of Fire is good, lack of deep striking mostly is a hinderance for dreadnoughts as Veterans are the only drop pod infantry I can think of. Awakening Fire is too expensive for the fear bonus for what you're giving up.

 

Vulkan: Probably middle of the pack for Primarchs. Not bad, not great, surprisingly bland? Also, why is the physically strongest primarch with the best crafting skills unable to make a Brutal (2) weapon at least? The rules break the verisimilitude.

 

Pyroclasts, Firedrakes, Adherents: Probably the strongest part of the legion. All 3 are great and do their job well.

 

Rest of the Legacy units: lolololololololololol

Edited March 7, 2023 by arnesh88

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Rambling incoming!

Thanks for the great break down! I would say your take mostly mirrors my own, except I have not played a ton of games so some if my takes are theoretical. 

I think mostly my takeaway though, is that if we lean into just the Legion list (which was my preference in 1st edition and is how my army is built), I find that most of our forces are outclassed by any legion whose trait actually benefits them more directly.

For instance, out tactical marines don’t have any edge over any legion that can do things like: fury even while they are walking, are -1 strength to us shooting at them, are +1 Initiative when they charge us, can get things like shrapnel rounds, chain axes, etc etc

I am struggling to not have to completely ground-up rebuild my army to maximize what few advantages we can get. I am almost wondering if the answer is really a Termite Assault list full of pyroclasts backed up by Firedrakes in land raiders? Or multiple warmongers dropping firedrakes in a pride of the legion list? Do we really only have “as many fire drakes and characters with shields in a spartan as you can fit” to form a list around?

I keep trying to find the missing element and I’m just not seeing it. Is it adding recon or seekers to harass more characters and pin more while fire drakes advance? Adding things that can outflank like speeders or recon rhinos to cause enough distraction so our fire drakes advance? Other legions will outclass us in both of those games. Just a million rhinos full of minimum sized squads of pyroclasts?

At the moment I’m building a tartaros champion/warmonger that can actually sweep if I win combat, a multi melta armistos to go with my breachers, a couple apothecaries, and a herald in cataphractii to go with my fire drakes. 
After that, I’m wondering what my next move will be.

And yeah, I am really bummed about our  two named chaplains that I have built and painted and loved. I wish we at least had s special chaplain/librarian combo consul to use with Awakening Fire.

I hope I’m not sounding salty, I really don’t mind an uphill battle. I’m legit just trying to figure out an angle to work with.

Oh, except I am definitely salty that Blood Angels can still get inferno pistols and we can’t hahaha
 

 

 

[arnesh88]

@Ripper.McGuirl Hard not to be salty. When I saw the updated rules, I was excited for them, but after getting some games in with them, it's just hard to stay positive. I'm crossing my fingers for some revisiting of rules/fixes in the future, but not holding my breath.

 

Firedrakes are good as both 5 and 10 man squads. 10 mans is a classic that can still work, but it is a bit weaker this edition due to transports exploding now doing Str 8, instant deathing any failed saves. A 5 man squad is what I've been running, and they can go toe-to-toe with my opponents' dreadnoughts fairly well, especially when they charge them and I activate the Advanced Reaction. I tend to lose more Firedrakes to rolling 1s on explosions than to Gravis Fists, oddly enough. For both pyroclasts and firedrakes, I would highly advise to go no weaker than Land Raiders for transports, with the only exception being a Covenant of Fire RoW with a ton of pyroclast squads, in which you want some rhinos to save points.

 

I don't know what you face against a lot, but I face a lot of long ranged shooting. A squad of Scorpiuses helps me a lot with picking out their HSS or Recon/Seekers. I also take a Leviathan Dread as another anti-melee tool, but also because they seem more fair than Contemptors due to speed.

 

I hate to see another player completely rewrite a list because of frustrating experiences. Best advice for Salamanders I can give is to provide target saturation and counters to long-range shooting to support your army. Scorpiuses to fire at long range shooting while out of line of sight, and Contemptors to run alongside your transports because they're a boogyman. If they blow up the transport for your Pyroclasts, they still have to worry about the Dread. If they bring down the dread, they have to worry about the pyroclasts. Take whichever troops help you the most, that mostly depends on local meta. I'm leaning into Breachers soon, only because of facing against a lot of artillery. But if you're not facing against that, regular tacticals with chain/bayonets work well with an Apothecary.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

All good points!

I guess I should mention we play around 2k right now. My list basically starts with a cataphractii delegatus, a contemptor (with a gravis plasma that has been great against the big tac squads I see) 5 fire drakes in a land raider, 6-8 pyroclasts in a land raider, and breachers in a termite. Then tacticals and other characters to fit.
My first plan is to tweak what I have: swap the meltas on the breachers for lascutters, I’m going to swap the heavy bolters on the land raiders for las and drop the multimeltas I have on them, I also had more chain and power fists on my fire drakes and delegatus that I have since swapped for hammers. I have been running two 15 man tactical squads but I think I will change to one 20 man squad with an apothecary.

I am considering also putting the breachers in a Raider, but I love the drill and want to try and make it work.

[arnesh88]

Doesn't sound too different from what I do, though I have a Kratos I try to fit in my lists all the time (because I worked really hard to paint it up). I also lean into land raiders, planning to get a 3rd sometime in the future, and probably not go farther than that because I don't anticipate to play games much bigger than 3k points realistically. They're solid both as gun-boats and durable enough to at least get our troops close enough ~70% of the time. Flexible and appropriately pointed. As much as I like rhinos, mine keep getting blown up very quickly (even one instance where I ran 4 rhinos against blood angels in a 2k game, all blown up and troops inside wiped out in 1st turn). That experience has left a bad taste in my mouth ever since. Others may not encounter that problem, but I can only speak for myself.

 

Breachers in a Termite, not sure what to do with them. They are expensive for their durability. Probably best thing is to deep strike for mid field objectives, or to pop up next to a tank and try to crack it open with melta/lascutters? I am just taking mine to hold down backfield or midfield objectives. Just a more durable tactical squad.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah I think I keep getting caught between wanting them to do damage and wanting them to take an objective. I honestly never thought of just using them to camp the back line. Are they actually any more durable than tac+apothecary on an objective? I guess they get to reroll against barrages, even though they don’t get the FNP.

I am rhino shy for sure, but I have to say my raiders still get hindered easier than I’d like. I had one get lucky-las canonned turn 1 in one game and I immobilized one trying to drive out of 1” of woods that I had deployed in in another game.

I kind of love the idea of having 3 the more I think about it. Having those 15 las shots can really focus fire something down.

[arnesh88]

I use Breachers because my local meta pushes me to it. If games were consistently close, I would stick with my tacticals. They are the first things that die consistently to high powered shooting, and they rarely face against bolter fire. So Breachers are my best bet: 5++ to survive some shooting and Heavy sub-type for the pie plates.

 

Unlucky shots and immobilizes will happen, so going for more land raiders ain't a bad thing (I had my last game start incredibly horrible when a single lascannon shot blew up my kratos on its flare shield side (against IW), and the explosion killed a bunch of tactical marines, failed leadership, ran off the board, and immobilized the already immobilized predator for it's final 2 hull points). It will probably work better for you since I have a Kratos tying up almost 2 land raider spots, both in size and points. My land raiders will tend to survive until at least turn 2 because most of the guns point at the kratos instead. It's a good example of big scary things not always needing to kill to do their job. My opponents know that if the kratos survives, it will do serious damage. They might start realizing soon to blow up the land raiders sooner to force my guys to march.

 

Only thing to be careful of is traffic jams. That's a problem I commonly encounter with how many transports/vehicles I run. As you include more vehicles, just start keeping track of your gameplay experience to see if it's starting to get tricky to move units around.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah I have run into the traffic jam quite a bit actually. I think part of it is we just tend to use a ton of terrain.

I do try to use it to my advantage, though, and use the raiders to block fire lines coming towards me. Even just parking it somewhere it will be a pain in the ass to move around when they kill it.

But honestly part of me wonders how replacing all the land raiders with 10 man pyroclast squads that run up the board would do.

[arnesh88]

No idea. My gut instinct is like most skew lists, it's going to be really strong in some instances, and other instances will lead to you spending more time setting up the army than how long the game takes. I think it's going to be a matter of how committed you are to the idea. If you already have them assembled/painted, it's worth some tries.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah I suppose you’re probably right. I guess this gets back to my original point though, which is that a generalist, take all comers, OG Legion type list (that I am used to from last edition) does not work as well for us since we get almost no utility from our rules in that case, and most other legions do. 
Whereas just taking the couple things that work well for us over and over seems the better, and less interesting, option.