HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[CCE1981]

I am interested in a Ravenguard army.  Looking at No God’s or Masters and Decapitating Strike.   Something about a Legion Praetor going up against any Primarch and making that Primarch say “you made me bleed my own blood.” before becoming a red mist for less than 200 pts appeals to me for some reason.  

Any advice on building towards this?  What would be good to remove the specialist models then hitting those units to pin them or cause them to route?

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Claws and Effect said:

For shooting at aircraft I'd actually use Nex's Pinpoint Strike profile. It's AP2 with a 24" range. Penetrating hits can potentially explode it, and you don't have to mess around trying to get him within 12" if that would be a bad place for him to be. 

You're kidding right?

Obviously range is a factor, but if the choice is there, you should rarely go with pinpoint.

Against the lighter flyers that you can actually penetrate, you average 0.05 explodes and 0.56 hull points per attack. Empty the chamber averages 3.3 hullpoints.

There's really no contest. Even if you only kill 2 marines turn 1 and trade for a xiphon on turn 2, you basically made his points back. Any pdf flyers make the points back by themselves.

[Claws and Effect]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

You're kidding right?

Obviously range is a factor, but if the choice is there, you should rarely go with pinpoint.

Against the lighter flyers that you can actually penetrate, you average 0.05 explodes and 0.56 hull points per attack. Empty the chamber averages 3.3 hullpoints.

There's really no contest. Even if you only kill 2 marines turn 1 and trade for a xiphon on turn 2, you basically made his points back. Any pdf flyers make the points back by themselves.

Ideally I'd prefer he spend the whole game murdering scoring units. The Shrouded they get when they're on objectives is useless because you can't use Shrouded against his shooting. 

Having him shoot flyers at all is going to be a last resort. 

[MichaelCarmine]

4 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

I am interested in a Ravenguard army.  Looking at No God’s or Masters and Decapitating Strike.   Something about a Legion Praetor going up against any Primarch and making that Primarch say “you made me bleed my own blood.” before becoming a red mist for less than 200 pts appeals to me for some reason.  

Any advice on building towards this?  What would be good to remove the specialist models then hitting those units to pin them or cause them to route?

Won't work against primarchs i'm afraid.

No Gods or Masters only triggers against Infantry/Cavalry models. =/

[CCE1981]

45 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Won't work against primarchs i'm afraid.

No Gods or Masters only triggers against Infantry/Cavalry models. =/

 Ahh, not like I though he would be able to do more than bloody a Primarchs nose.  Doubtful there are too many cases aside from named Characters where that would come into use then.

[Varyn]

I had my first game of 2.0 and my first game with RG yesterday. We played 1500 points, my friend took AL pride of the legion.

I used this list, a combination of what I’ve build so far:

 

decapitation strike

praetor, corvid jump pack, paragon blade, power fist (The hidden hand)

vigilator

contemptor, kheres, chainfist, melta gun

laser rapier

5 recon marines, nemesis bolsters, nuncio vox

10 tactical marines, chain bayonets, ravens talon, vexilla

5 support marines, rotor cannons

10 breachers, melta gun, artificer armour, power fist

vindicator laser destroyer

5 dark furys

 

We we’re both playing our first game of 2.0 so it was a bit of a learning curve, although there were lots of positives. The 6+ shrouded on infantry is great, it saved quite a few wounds, combined with infiltrate I think that Talons are easily the pick of the Shadow and Fury rule.

I used deep strike on the praetor and dark fury’s and was able to charge the enemy praetor and a recon squad, unfortunately nemesis bolter overwatch killed the chooser of the slain. The dark fury’s killed the unit and praetor (after my praetor died!) but 5 dark fury’s is definitely not enough, after the first round of combat they’re only I4 and being WS4 isn’t great for a melee unit.

I can’t comment on breachers as they just sat on an objective and we’re ignored all game! But having scoring units is definitely important, plus chain bayonets are a great melee boost! it’s good that tactical marines can help win games and not just be considered a tax.

The reactions can be quite powerful in small games, your opponent can potentially shoot you 3 times with the same unit in your own turn! (Return fire, overwatch & interceptor). I think this will be less of an issue in bigger games.

Overall the game was good fun and it felt a lot more interactive during my opponents turn, I’m going to tweak list and increase it to 2k for our next game.

 

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

Ideally I'd prefer he spend the whole game murdering scoring units. The Shrouded they get when they're on objectives is useless because you can't use Shrouded against his shooting. 

Having him shoot flyers at all is going to be a last resort. 

Heart of the legion grants feel no pain, not shrouded. 

And even against basic meq with no damage mitigation, you average 4.6 unsaved wounds across shooting and melee, split 2.7/1.9 respectively. He honestly doesn't get much value against meq units in the marine matchup; you want to snipe out unit upgrades, burn down vehicles on their weak facings, and kill speeders.

[Mandragola]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:59 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

HSS can't infiltrate, since they are "Heavy" and if you use a RG RoW, you could only field one HSS in the Decap RoW. That on HS slot is really precious and, atl least in my case, often reserved for a Leviathan.

So of course, they are more expensive as a HSS, but give you much more freedom.

And in comparison to Seekers, they can fire their weapons more than once, which is, thanks to reactions alone, worth more than one can imagine.

 

And in case of Mor Deythan - just use the Chainswords, that come with the MKIII plastik kit, they are in leather "covers", which can (or have to) be mounted onto the backpack.

Good tips there. I’m actually building towards the recon company rite of war which lets me have as much HS as I want but stops me deploying anything “heavy”. I’m finding that distinction a bit arbitrary as it doesn’t apply to any vehicles. It’s weird to be allowed a Typhon but not a javelin, in my opinion. There are plenty of shooty options though because I can take all the tanks I like.

Sticking mk3 chainswords to backpacks is an interesting idea. I’ll mock that up and see how I feel about it. I’ve got plenty of them. The problem is that the cloaks prevent me from sticking them on belts.

Reactions are a good point on the virtues of being able to fire melta multiple times. I’d been assuming they’d die to retaliation pretty fast, if they even got to shoot at all, but actually things like overwatch are certainly worth doing with meltas even if you do subsequently die. Even so, going within 6” of the enemy tends to be an extremely suicidal option and also sometimes impossible. The enemy gets reactions too and if they use them to move out of 6” your squad could end up looking a bit silly  

A 140 point predator feels to me like the best melty thing in the book at the moment. You can move 14” and fire armourbane at 18” and you’ve got a fairly solid hull. Melta contemptors are another option but they’re more expensive and don’t have the reach. If I want to stop something like a Spartan then the predators or someone infiltrating are the way to potentially do that on turn 1. 

I’ve also got three predator Hulls, though apparently only two turrets. - which is a bit annoying! I’m not sure if I’ll make the things but I do think they look like a good option. 

[NemoVonUtopia]

Anyone have any experience with deathstorm drop pods? I want to have 2-3 in a decapitation strike list. I currently have 2x10 Dark Furies and 5 Deliverers dropping in, 3 contemptors, and I am going to fill in the points with tactical squads, seekers, mor deythan, and other infantry.

Deathstorms are appropriate lorewise but buying 3 will be more expensive money wise than a kratos or fire raptor or something that feels more useful to me.

 

Also I noticed that the corvid pattern jump pack does not say it can be activated as part of a Deep Strike Assault like the Warhawk jump pack and Corax's Korvidine Pinions do. Do y'all think that its a safe bet that this is an oversight and not an intentional downside?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm not a big fan of DSDPs.

I have a Kratos, and honestly I have been leaning more and more on a Leviathan talon or 2 deredos instead for a decapitation strike.

If I'm taking drop pods it's either going to be for the drop pod RoW or in a list without Corvax.

Speaking of. I think corax is pretty much mandatory now simply because he gives scout to our infantry units. Crusader is meh, but having a significant amount of your force get free movement is huge. Especially if your opponent buys auspex scanners to deny your infiltrators.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Lord Krungharr]

Trying to decide what other units to collect for my Raven Guard detachment.  Sure feels like they need jump packs, so for sure I'm making 10 Dark Furies, and also I'm making at least 1 unit of 10 Assault Jump Troops.  Some sneaky outflankers of some sort seems like a must have too, so if not using Corax, I'd probably need a Vigilator or Pathfinder for Scout?   Master of Signal could be useful but would screw with my own deepstriking possibilities, but not with Scouting.....so maybe I do just want a Corax for his enmasse Scouting?   

My first instincts is that bunches of little MSUs Scouting/Outflanking all over the place would be confounding for the enemy, forcing (hopefully) difficult choices

I've never used a sneaky army before but have been horribly sneaked in the distant past by Lias Issodon in 40k.

I have an allied detachment of Iron Hands biker-forgelord w melta bikers, tac squad w rhino, and a Leviathan for extra anti-tank muscle if needed.  Of course they'll be black and white too, so could just as easily be Raven Guard.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

If you do not want to use named Charackters, i'd recommend taking a Vigilator for his Sniping/pinning qualities.

Otherwise i'd take a look at Kaedes Nex, our Moritat Prime.

I've been very successfull with 2 - 3 Deep Strikers. Usually i drop a Unit of Deliverers (those are damn Powerfull, i'd say even a bit overpowered) first, and then Furies/Assault Squad/Destroyers.

Even if you drop "disordered", with the new drop rules and a unit size of 10, you shouldn't have a problem getting into pinning/charge range without a problem.

[Lord Krungharr]

Kaedes Nex is cool!  He'll make an excellent kitbashing project.  What are the Deliverers?  I can't find that unit in the Liber Astartes or Legacy Units pdf.  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

26 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Kaedes Nex is cool!  He'll make an excellent kitbashing project.  What are the Deliverers?  I can't find that unit in the Liber Astartes or Legacy Units pdf.  

They are on the last page of the updated .pdf they are a 10-15 cataphractii terminators squad that can deep strike, equip multi-meltas, have WS 5 and loyalist get battle hardened.

An easy Google search brings them up.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ah ha, finally found it....something called Exemplary Battles.  I didn't see any requirements to just be some sort of narrative game to use them either, so looks like I'll be getting some more Cataphractii Terminators, and a few multimeltas.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I just grabbed 2 sets of the Justaerin upgrade kits for the MM. Just be warned the axe hands do not come with arms. They are specifically made for the Justaerin's which are currently OOS in the US.

[Claws and Effect]

19 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Kaedes Nex is cool!  He'll make an excellent kitbashing project.  What are the Deliverers?  I can't find that unit in the Liber Astartes or Legacy Units pdf.  

 

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Ah ha, finally found it....something called Exemplary Battles.  I didn't see any requirements to just be some sort of narrative game to use them either, so looks like I'll be getting some more Cataphractii Terminators, and a few multimeltas.

Kaedes Nex is a beast. I'd almost call him overpowered if he weren't so relatively easy to kill. You have to be careful when you use him or he'll get splatted pretty quick. 

The Exemplary Battles are basically just GWs way of saying "here's a new unit for this Legion, and a story/scenario to explain them." 

In the case of the Deliverers, they had been name dropped as early as book 3, but never had rules until now (and still don't have dedicated models). 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Since the Deliverers can get expensive I've decided If i want to run 10-15 I need to play some as wound soakers.

I feel as though at 10 you need some power weapons and combi-bolters to soak S8 - S10 with Battle Hardened. 

Currently, unless someone can offer better suggestions, I think a unit of 10 should look something like

2x multi-melta with power weapons...or fists/chain fists (although precision shots might be intimidating)

5x bolters and power weapons

2x bolters with power fists.

1x bolter with chainfist

Bumping the squad up to 15

Add a third multi-melta

And then 4x raven's talons.

This will be a huge points investment, but a very strong hammer than can double as an anvil that can deep strike.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Lord Krungharr]

I think magnets are a must, and easily done, on the Cataphractii kits.  I'll get 10 once my jury duty check comes in.

[Mandragola]

Deliverers are great. Notice that they get raven’s talons rather than lightning claws, for not too many points. 
 

I think I’d start out with 5. Give one a multimelta and chainfist and talons for the rest. I do see the argument for some wound soaking though, so perhaps one or two with just power swords and combi-bolters would be good. 
 

For me the first HQ I pick would be a librarian doing telepathy. The ability to switch off reactions and pin units almost at will is extremely powerful. Infiltrating one of these guys could be really cool too, and difficult to protect against. 

That said, many of the consuls look good. A siege breaker can get his phosphex bombs straight into range. A herald can bring Line for dark furies, Mor Deythan or Deliverers. Kaedes Nex is indeed a total beast and can give shroud bombs to a seeker unit. A Chaplain makes a lot of sense for dark furies. 

[Varyn]

In my opinion the multi-melta is a bit of a points trap. The unit is only BS4 so the chance of missing your 1 shot is rather high (compared to a unit with higher BS or more high strength shots to offset the BS4). The unit is geared towards melee; WS5, access to cheap Raven's Talons and Stubborn, I plan on running my unit of 5 all with Raven's Talons, anything that they can't deal with in melee can be taken care of by other units in my army; laser vindicators, laser rapiers etc. 

2 Multi-melta's is the same cost as 1 Deliverer with Raven's Talons, unless you're taking a full unit of 15, in which case you can't add an additional squad member, I'd prefer the extra body. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

19 minutes ago, Varyn said:

In my opinion the multi-melta is a bit of a points trap. The unit is only BS4 so the chance of missing your 1 shot is rather high (compared to a unit with higher BS or more high strength shots to offset the BS4). The unit is geared towards melee; WS5, access to cheap Raven's Talons and Stubborn, I plan on running my unit of 5 all with Raven's Talons, anything that they can't deal with in melee can be taken care of by other units in my army; laser vindicators, laser rapiers etc. 

2 Multi-melta's is the same cost as 1 Deliverer with Raven's Talons, unless you're taking a full unit of 15, in which case you can't add an additional squad member, I'd prefer the extra body. 

Multi-meltas are twin-linked. Which gives you somewhere in the ballpark of ~80% success rate of fire. So BS 4 doesn't really matter.

I do think having power fists or power axes in the squad is important to be  to wound TEQ on 2s-3s or at least get your re-roll to wounds of 1s on the charge and force invulnerablesaves. Which you should be able to do with vox re-rolls. Raven's talons are good, but you mostly are fishing for 5+ which is more important to get the shred re-rolls against things like T6+ at initiatives.

[Varyn]

Apologies, I must have missed the change to multi-meltas, however I feel that 25 points cost is too steep.

Regarding the alternatives vs Raven's Talon, I think that the fact that you can get AP2 at initial 4 should not be ignored, yes you are fishing for 5+'s but you will most likely get to attack with all of your unit as you are not using unwieldy weapons. AP2 at initiative is much rarer in this edition and units with unwieldy weapons have a habit of dying before initiative step 1 in my experience.

Wounding on a 4+ with a re-roll is better than wounding on a 3+ and when you consider the extra attacks the talons are superior to all of the power weapon options.

I see where you are coming from with the power fists, they are definitely a viable option, however I think I prefer the two Talons vs 1 power fist for the 10 points. I think I have been scarred by removing too many models from the table before their respective initiative step!

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Varyn

[Dont-Be-Haten]

53 minutes ago, Varyn said:

Apologies, I must have missed the change to multi-meltas, however I feel that 25 points cost is too steep.

Regarding the alternatives vs Raven's Talon, I think that the fact that you can get AP2 at initial 4 should not be ignored, yes you are fishing for 5+'s but you will most likely get to attack with all of your unit as you are not using unwieldy weapons. AP2 at initiative is much rarer in this edition and units with unwieldy weapons have a habit of dying before initiative step 1 in my experience.

Wounding on a 4+ with a re-roll is better than wounding on a 3+ and when you consider the extra attacks the talons are superior to all of the power weapon options.

I see where you are coming from with the power fists, they are definitely a viable option, however I think I prefer the two Talons vs 1 power fist for the 10 points. I think I have been scarred by removing too many models from the table before their respective initiative step!

 

All good on the MM. I think it's just important to remember melta is still great this addition and being able to pluck wounds/multiwound models off the board is a strong return on investment. If 25-75 points worth of guns can kill 2-3Tartaros, cataphractii, or pop a big vehicle/transport in order to charge its not such a waste of points to me.

The most important thing to remember is you need S10 to instant death loyalists. So S8-9 will only cause 1 wound, and with that sweet 4++ you can get away with swinging at I 1 where as other cataphractii, while still hardy get instagibbed on S8.

Claws are absolutely good, and terrifying but if you're taking both Dark furies and Deliverers you have more leeway on weapon options.

[Mandragola]

I’m personally on the fence about the multimelta. Part of my reasoning for bringing it is that I’d want a chainfist or two in the unit to tackle armoured vehicles. As great as Raven’s talons are vs they’re only S4 rending against vehicles. A unit will go straight through anything with rear armour 10 but once you go above that it’ll be a challenge. And the guy with the chainfist may as well have a proper gun on his other arm, as one combi-bolter in a unit isn’t worth much. 

An alternative would be a couple of guys with combi-meltas and chainfists and three with talons. That works out as the same price I think.

I don’t think there’s much of an argument for axes. I think talons push more ap2 wounds through, thanks to the extra 2 attacks, while not being unwieldy. It doesn’t work as a cheap guy to soak wounds because, chances are, he won’t have attacked yet when you remove him. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Mandragola