HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[Dont-Be-Haten]

But you can't just look at close combat. This unit is expensive, and there is a chance the unit is going to be shot at 3 times the turn they come down, barring a deep strike mishap. Interceptor, return fire, overwatch. I would rather remove a stocked 40 point model with power weapon than a 55 point model with claws. And there isn't much on the board that has S10 in close combat at initiative.

So being able to soak up ablative wounds on a couple axes that are effectively AP 2 claws on the turn they charge is much more manageable.

Concern for both a chainfist and multi-melta on 1 model means he'll be just below 100 points. And snipers and vigilators can force wounds on them meaning that is potentially the first model you will have to remove. By spreading out the chainfists and meltas your opponent then has to make a choice, the melta or the chainfist.

Obviously it doesn't matter which power weapon you take, I just use axes, as they are depicted as favoring those over swords or maces.

[Lord Krungharr]

On 8/8/2022 at 7:36 AM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

 

The most important thing to remember is you need S10 to instant death loyalists. So S8-9 will only cause 1 wound, and with that sweet 4++ you can get away with swinging at I 1 where as other cataphractii, while still hardy get instagibbed on S8.

 

Can you point us to the page regarding this Loyalist rule?  That's a pretty key and awesome rule.  Please and thank you!

[TheNineteenth]

On 6/30/2022 at 4:49 AM, Varyn said:

I hadn't looked much at Mor Deythan, combi volkite looks like a good option, hopefully with the new plastic special weapon kit someone will make a combi-volkite tutorial!

 

I found Raven Guard really hard to win with against legions like Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Sons of Horus, Death Guard, etc, basically anyone that could spam Elite multi-wound (often 2w2+4++ or 3x3+5++) Infantry.

The way I was playing Raven Guard at the end of the last edition was in an Armoured Breakthrough list I called MOAR Deythan, where I ran 30 in Rhinos; they scored (thanks to the FAQ that give Implacable Advance to most Elite Infantry), they were great shots out of the Rhinos with BS5 gyro-stabilized, and when the Rending Flamer Raven Roast went off, very ugly and problematic units were often deleted.

With shooting (2 of the Missile Launchers, equipped every third model) out of Vehicles at an end, the Fast Rhinos from the new Armoured Spearhead just aren't they were, and no real way to give them Line (I guess one or two Heralds now that they RG Consul limit is gone?), the list build needs to be much different.

I was planning on buying like 21 Nemesis Bolters to replace the combi-flamers carried by my non-missile launcher Mor Deythan. I have a set from before the model came out based on mk4 Recons of 10 with Nemesis Bolters x7 and Missile Launchers x3 , and 1 set of the proper models with 7x Combi-flamer and 3x Missile Launcher, and 2 more sets of 10 with Anvil Industries capes based on Raven Guard mk6 upgrade heads and torsos.

Maybe just snipping the old flamer barrels on half of the 21 with combi-flamers and adding a 3d printed Volkite tip is the thing to do, perhaps with the other half getting Nemesis bolters (I think I only have like 10 on hand as I used a number converting an Amitara Intercession Cabal for a TS army). 

29 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Can you point us to the page regarding this Loyalist rule?  That's a pretty key and awesome rule.  Please and thank you!

Surely this must be a mistake. lol

Edited August 10, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[TheNineteenth]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:07 AM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Obviously it doesn't matter which power weapon you take, I just use axes, as they are depicted as favoring those over swords or maces.

Axes are still Ap2 and Unwieldy... how does this not matter versus Swords and Maces?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Loyalist deliverers gain the Battle Hardened (1) special rule. The traitors gain hatred corax.

[TheNineteenth]

33 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Can you point us to the page regarding this Loyalist rule?  That's a pretty key and awesome rule.  Please and thank you!

Quote

Instant Death
Even though some warriors have multiple Wounds, there are several kinds of weapons in the 31st Millennium that are powerful enough to kill them instantly. If the Strength Characteristic of an attack is at least double the Toughness Characteristic (after modifiers) of the target model, the attack gains the Instant Death special rule. Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack with this special rule, it is reduced to 0 Wounds and is removed as a casualty.

This is from the Age of Darkness Rulebook, p. 172. Where in the Libers Astartes or Hereticus is there a variation of this that overrides it? I can't find it.

[TheNineteenth]

5 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Loyalist deliverers gain the Battle Hardened (1) special rule. The traitors gain hatred corax.

Oh, right-on. Didn't infer the very specific context.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

15 minutes ago, TheNineteenth said:

Axes are still Ap2 and Unwieldy... how does this not matter versus Swords and Maces?

For ablative wounds, you can take whichever power weapon you want. Points do not change in this regard.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Had an idea for an overwatch eater that can easily be justified and fluffy.

Centurion Ash blinded 105 - 115 points
Pair or Raven Talons
Warhawk/Corvid jump pack

sits with a dark fury squad, and breaks off from the unit prior to charges going off. With the Corvid jump pack giving him +3 to his charge distance he can force an overwatch or other reaction on a squad you need destroyed. i.e. Heavy support squad with Lascannons, melta guns, etc. If you don't bait the overwatch you're almost guaranteed to get into combat with a blender cent. 6 attacks on the charge, WS5 I5 that can protect itself with a challenge if need be.

Even though it is a bit gamey, it is lore accurate as the Ash Blind would commit themselves to near suicidal acts of violence etc.  
 

[Lord Krungharr]

6 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Had an idea for an overwatch eater that can easily be justified and fluffy.

Centurion Ash blinded 105 - 115 points
Pair or Raven Talons
Warhawk/Corvid jump pack

sits with a dark fury squad, and breaks off from the unit prior to charges going off. With the Corvid jump pack giving him +3 to his charge distance he can force an overwatch or other reaction on a squad you need destroyed. i.e. Heavy support squad with Lascannons, melta guns, etc. If you don't bait the overwatch you're almost guaranteed to get into combat with a blender cent. 6 attacks on the charge, WS5 I5 that can protect itself with a challenge if need be.

Even though it is a bit gamey, it is lore accurate as the Ash Blind would commit themselves to near suicidal acts of violence etc.  
 

That's awesome!  I was contemplating how to negate overwatch earlier today in the IronHands forum.  Easy to do in Age of Sigmar but wasn't sure in 30k.  Nice thing is such a model could easily be a variety of Centurions, especially with magnetized arms.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

6 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

That's awesome!  I was contemplating how to negate overwatch earlier today in the IronHands forum.  Easy to do in Age of Sigmar but wasn't sure in 30k.  Nice thing is such a model could easily be a variety of Centurions, especially with magnetized arms.

Technically you could just take him with a jump pack but that's not very fluffy, fun, or cool...and Edryk Setorax makes for one fine ash blind.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Lord Krungharr]

Looking at Mor Deythan squads, sure seems like flamers would be the way to go for maximizing rending....and if using flamers, I'm wondering if a Dreadclaw might be the best way to use them for better positioning.

Though some units have even more spread-out coherency, so maybe the Volkite Chargers (I think chargers are the ones?) might actually be more all-around good.  In that case infiltrating and/or scouting would work well.

For super sneaky snipers in Raven Guard, do we prefer Recon Squads to get some Line Troops, or go with Seekers?  I don't think Mor Deythans are the best use of Nemesis Bolters.

[xxxjtmxxx]

7 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looking at Mor Deythan squads, sure seems like flamers would be the way to go for maximizing rending....and if using flamers, I'm wondering if a Dreadclaw might be the best way to use them for better positioning.

Though some units have even more spread-out coherency, so maybe the Volkite Chargers (I think chargers are the ones?) might actually be more all-around good.  In that case infiltrating and/or scouting would work well.

For super sneaky snipers in Raven Guard, do we prefer Recon Squads to get some Line Troops, or go with Seekers?  I don't think Mor Deythans are the best use of Nemesis Bolters.

with combi volkite u have 4 shoots in close range. think thats better to get 40 shoots save.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

9 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looking at Mor Deythan squads, sure seems like flamers would be the way to go for maximizing rending....and if using flamers, I'm wondering if a Dreadclaw might be the best way to use them for better positioning.

Though some units have even more spread-out coherency, so maybe the Volkite Chargers (I think chargers are the ones?) might actually be more all-around good.  In that case infiltrating and/or scouting would work well.

For super sneaky snipers in Raven Guard, do we prefer Recon Squads to get some Line Troops, or go with Seekers?  I don't think Mor Deythans are the best use of Nemesis Bolters.

Unfortunately templates are specifically called out as not being able to use the rending (4+) strike rule.

I think combi-volkite would be the way to utilize the ability. However we don't have the physical option for that weapon in bulk yet, and I feel the amount of chopping and re-modeling is going to be a steep investment in time, money, and resources.

I just purchased 10 Mor Deythan, and I believe they are best utilized as 7 nemesis bolters with 3 missile launchers at range, but I'll probably run mine with just nemesis bolters.

Otherwise if I'm taking the combi-volkite I'm sticking them in a rhino turn 1.

[corvus.calvariam]

I too think Nemesis Bolters are a fine choice for Mor Deythan, they're probably the best platform for the weapon available in the list. They combine BS5 from Seekers, Relentless from Veterans and Shroud Bombs from Recon Squads while being able to buy the guns at half price compared to the rest.

[Lord Krungharr]

Hmm, all excellent points.  They'll look great with cat helmets too.

[Mandragola]

For me there are some issues with Mor Deythan snipers. They don’t score but recon squads do, and only use up a troop slot. 4+ rending isn’t a big deal when you already have 5+ rending. 

it’s a bit weird that they’ve all got chainswords when the models haven’t. The cloaks mean it’s not easy to even stick on sheathed ones. 

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

For me there are some issues with Mor Deythan snipers. They don’t score but recon squads do, and only use up a troop slot. 4+ rending isn’t a big deal when you already have 5+ rending. 

it’s a bit weird that they’ve all got chainswords when the models haven’t. The cloaks mean it’s not easy to even stick on sheathed ones. 

Also i don't think, one can use the 4+ Rending on the Nemesis Bolters, since you cannot replace or improve another version of rending with Fatal Strike.

 

MkIII Chainswords with their leather straps work pretty well, since they are ment to be mounted on/underneath the backpack.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I feel like scoring doesn't really matter in the same vein as in 40k. 

I do like support squads with infiltrator and scout as better options as troops options. Or despoilers etc.

[Lord Krungharr]

Only 1 game under my belt this far with my IVth Legion.  But seems like scoring those objectives could be the key determinant for victory.   My initial impression is that sneaky armies Iike the XIXth could benefit more from bringing many smaller units of Line troops, and be better able to get them into position for the end game. 

 

 During the game dishing out precise attacks where needed to speedbump, tarpit, or utterly raze enemies from the field as able.    Leaving the scoring for last.  

 

as opposed to expensive durable lumbering terminators slowly marching up the field or hiding in silly tanks.   I already have an army for that

[NemoVonUtopia]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:01 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Also i don't think, one can use the 4+ Rending on the Nemesis Bolters, since you cannot replace or improve another version of rending with Fatal Strike.

Pg 231 under Variable Special Rules: "In all cases, each instance of a variable special rule is considered a separate special rule and discrete from all other instances of that special rule."

So fatal strike would mean the nemesis bolters would have both 4+ rending and 5+ rending as separate rules and you would pick one to use.

 

[corvus.calvariam]

14 hours ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Pg 231 under Variable Special Rules: "In all cases, each instance of a variable special rule is considered a separate special rule and discrete from all other instances of that special rule."

So fatal strike would mean the nemesis bolters would have both 4+ rending and 5+ rending as separate rules and you would pick one to use.

 

The wording of Fatal Strike is quite clear in highlighting that the 4+ Rending does not replace or improve any forms of Rending already possessed by the unit, so their Nemesis Bolters would still only Rend on a 5+.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I will just use Fatal Strike on my pistols when the need arises. BS 5, auto wounding on 4+ at AP2 for no additional points costs sounds sweet. I'm not mad at it.

[Mandragola]

I feel like elite slots are under a lot of pressure for Ravenguard, due to Moe Deythan and Deliverers both sitting in that slot. You’ll tend to want apothecaries and contemptors so you won’t be able to take unlimited Mor Deythan squads. 

I think I can see myself taking one unit, most likely armed with combi-volkites. Those 40 rending shots sound seriously scary. Other options are fine, or even good, but not as uniquely damaging as that volley. It could well be worth getting them a rhino too. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

17 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I feel like elite slots are under a lot of pressure for Ravenguard, due to Moe Deythan and Deliverers both sitting in that slot. You’ll tend to want apothecaries and contemptors so you won’t be able to take unlimited Mor Deythan squads. 

I think I can see myself taking one unit, most likely armed with combi-volkites. Those 40 rending shots sound seriously scary. Other options are fine, or even good, but not as uniquely damaging as that volley. It could well be worth getting them a rhino too. 

100% agree with the rhino. My biggest concern is having to build the combi-volkite, for which we only have like 1 physical option from the new EC praetor. I think Mor Deythan need to be in a squad of 10 if you're only taking the one squad for sure. 

Then you have to decide what is going to be left behind: Best snipers of any legion, devastating deep striking anvil that can pretty much kill anything in the game, a FnP roll, or a Contemptor Talon.