HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[xxxjtmxxx]

why are deliverers so good? i dont see it

[Biscuittzz]

It's not really just one defining feature but rather a combination of very good aspects.

• Built-in deepstrike, which very few other unique terminator units get, allows you to forgo having to bring an expensive transport.
• Access to Ravens Talons that are better than normal LCs for the exact same price. Fishing for rends on 5+ is much much better.
• Probably the main reason - the battle hardened rule which makes us immune to instant death from double strength weapons is a massive buff when compared to other terminators. Opens up Power Axes and Fists as reliable options as we don't get ID'ed before we get to swing.
• All the above makes the unit very adaptable and can be tailored to nearly any enemy.
• Priced very competitively.

I imagine there's more reasons that others may point out that I've forgotten. 

 

Compare them to the likes of NL Contekar terminators and you'll see just how good they are for a similar price point.

[NemoVonUtopia]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:30 PM, Biscuittzz said:

It's not really just one defining feature but rather a combination of very good aspects.

• Built-in deepstrike, which very few other unique terminator units get, allows you to forgo having to bring an expensive transport.
• Access to Ravens Talons that are better than normal LCs for the exact same price. Fishing for rends on 5+ is much much better.
• Probably the main reason - the battle hardened rule which makes us immune to instant death from double strength weapons is a massive buff when compared to other terminators. Opens up Power Axes and Fists as reliable options as we don't get ID'ed before we get to swing.
• All the above makes the unit very adaptable and can be tailored to nearly any enemy.
• Priced very competitively.

I imagine there's more reasons that others may point out that I've forgotten. 

 

Compare them to the likes of NL Contekar terminators and you'll see just how good they are for a similar price point.

And they are WS 5 and cheaper than a equivalent command squad so they can fight contemptors and other WS5 terminators evenly.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:04 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

why are deliverers so good? i dont see it

How do you see them? 

Are you concerned about the Elite slot they take up? Not being able to sweep a unit? Their points cost? Their speed?

These are valid connotations. I personally feel as though the positives win the day, but I'm curious to see an alternative viewpoint and welcome opposing insight!

[Shrieker]

I just received Legiones Astartes, I can't see a way to take the Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport for most Elites anymore, in the same way that the old Darkwing could - am i missing something (eg RoW) or is it just gone? 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 8/19/2022 at 6:33 AM, Shrieker said:

I just received Legiones Astartes, I can't see a way to take the Storm Eagle as a dedicated transport for most Elites anymore, in the same way that the old Darkwing could - am i missing something (eg RoW) or is it just gone? 

You need to take the Rite of War: Angel's Wrath. It allows any unit that can take a Rhino as a dedicated transport to take a Storm Eagle instead.

[Shrieker]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:08 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

You need to take the Rite of War: Angel's Wrath. It allows any unit that can take a Rhino as a dedicated transport to take a Storm Eagle instead.

Thanks, yes i saw that later. Only the Mor Deythan edit: and legion recon squad can take it as a DT off their entry unit now. Oh well

Edited August 26, 2022 by Shrieker
Completeness.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm still undecided what unit to use for my long range snipers.  Mor Deythans are good but it'll be tough to decide on the other Elites (I'm thinking my 10 Dark Furies will require an Apothecarion).  But then my Deliverers?!?  Or is that redundant if running Dark Furies?  

My friend said he would just use Scouts because they'll be a long way away, and in terrain, so who cares about worse armor anyways, and the lesser BS isn't a big deal because we're fishing for the Precision Shots and Rending anyways with the Nemesis Bolters.    

But don't Seekers also have BS5 like Mor Deythans?  They have Scout and Infiltrate I remember, and are Fast Attack.  I like the alternate slot.  Or Recon guys for another Line unit, that might not be bad, better than Scouts right?

Choices of the Slain :D

 

[corvus.calvariam]

I made a little table for myself to refer to with regards to the basic details of each Nemesis Bolter platform we have access to. Non-exhaustive list of course, just the things I felt were most pertinent!

Nemesis Bolter Platforms
	Mor Deythan	Veteran Squad	Seeker Squad	Recon Squad	Scout Squad
FOC Slot	Elites	Elites	Fast Attack	Troops	Troops
Relentless	Y	Y
BS 5	Y		Y
Scout	Y			Y	Y
Shroud Bombs	Y			Y	Y
Skirmish	Y		Y	Y	Y
Line				Y
Save	3+ w/ Sgt AA	3+ w/ Sgt AA	3+ w/ Sgt AA	3+	4+
Upgrade Cost	5	10	10	10	10
5-Man Cost	175	165	155	135	115
10-Man Cost	325	305	280	245	205

[Lord Krungharr]

That's super helpful!  Thank you for posting that.  Hmmm, we really do get a bunch of good stuff with the Mor Deythans, but it appears that Recon Squads are pretty good too, just not quite as precise.  And they can't move and fire, though I wonder how important that is with snipers?  Nice thing, the same models could be either one.  Also dollar efficient!

 

[MichaelCarmine]

7 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm still undecided what unit to use for my long range snipers.  Mor Deythans are good but it'll be tough to decide on the other Elites (I'm thinking my 10 Dark Furies will require an Apothecarion).  But then my Deliverers?!?  Or is that redundant if running Dark Furies?  

My friend said he would just use Scouts because they'll be a long way away, and in terrain, so who cares about worse armor anyways, and the lesser BS isn't a big deal because we're fishing for the Precision Shots and Rending anyways with the Nemesis Bolters.    

But don't Seekers also have BS5 like Mor Deythans?  They have Scout and Infiltrate I remember, and are Fast Attack.  I like the alternate slot.  Or Recon guys for another Line unit, that might not be bad, better than Scouts right?

Choices of the Slain :D

 

IF you really are looking for long range snipers, i'd recommend recon squads, as they are cheap, get also a +1 to theor cover save and are scoring - so they can be placed on an objective in your deployment zone (if the mission has some) and do their work from there.

Keep in mind, that with the new sniper rule, you do not have to "fish" for hits anymore, since every hit/wound can be allocated by you.

 

Also, i think that seekers are one of, if not THE best snipers in the game.

They can allocate wounds with hit rolls of 4+ and also breach on 4+ with S5. They are mobile thanks to the mentioned ammo being assault, also get +1 to cover saves and are much cheaper than Mor Deythan.

MD are clearly better in just deleting things and are more durable thanns to havkng 2 wounds - but if you want to "snipe" out sergeants/apothecarys/special weapons, then Seekers do the job very well!

[Mandragola]

For sniping duties I like Seekers more than recon marines I think, armed with their standard kraken bolters. Precision shots 4+ means you're going to get several hits on your target. They're also better shots and will get more kills vs MEQ, thanks to Breaching 4+ instead of rending 5+. They're an efficient unit too at just 180 for 10 guys. You pay 135 for only 5 recon snipers.

There are downsides - primarily that they don't pin or score. 

[xxxjtmxxx]

4 hours ago, Mandragola said:

For sniping duties I like Seekers more than recon marines I think, armed with their standard kraken bolters. Precision shots 4+ means you're going to get several hits on your target. They're also better shots and will get more kills vs MEQ, thanks to Breaching 4+ instead of rending 5+. They're an efficient unit too at just 180 for 10 guys. You pay 135 for only 5 recon snipers.

There are downsides - primarily that they don't pin or score. 

nobody talks about seekers without upgrades, but they are really good with krakenbolter.

[Lord Krungharr]

I just put my custom helmets on all my Raven Guard guys today.  Looking at my collection, I think I still need more foot guys.  I keep seeing our Infiltration being mentioned as the main reason for our army.

I've got 20 assault squad guys (all pistol/sword), 10 Dark Furies, 10 Mortalis Despoilers (bolt pistols and 2 rad missile launchers), 10 tactical guys, rhino, leviathan w claw and drill (phospex too, magnetized the flamers/volkites), Forgelord on bike w 3 melta bikers, magnetized Moritat, and Kaedes Nex, and a Praetor w jumppack and Raven Talons.

Is it dum to even take a rhino for Raven Guard tacticals?  Haven't read about infiltrating/scouting for dedicated transports yet.  Or should I just slap some scopes and long barrels on them and call them Recon snipers?  Seekers probably need special looking bolters.

I for sure will make a couple Apothecaries w jump packs.  Guess if I leave the Tacticals as-is, I can run a 20 dude assault squad.

[WAR]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:31 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

nobody talks about seekers without upgrades, but they are really good with krakenbolter.

 I was planning on making/ taking a squad of them 

[suxdavide]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:31 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

nobody talks about seekers without upgrades, but they are really good with krakenbolter.

I'll be trying them, with no transport and completly vanilla.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Since models still can't charge turn one when they have Infiltrated, does it make more sense to lean more on deepstriking when deployging jump-troops? This way, they are off the board turn one and can't get shot. Or does the combination of intercept/overwatch make it not really worth the risk of a mishap?

[Lord Krungharr]

51 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Since models still can't charge turn one when they have Infiltrated, does it make more sense to lean more on deepstriking when deployging jump-troops? This way, they are off the board turn one and can't get shot. Or does the combination of intercept/overwatch make it not really worth the risk of a mishap?

I was pondering this as well.  Deepstriking with an augury scanner in the enemy lines is a bad prospect.  I think for the Ravens, it might be good to Outflank if possible, then they can get the Shrouded rule if they run when Flanking (and they get to move the jump distance too when Flanking so they can get places).  If they start on the table and have to go 2nd to run, they'd get shot up.  

With so much Infiltrate/Scout=>Outflank available to us, I think a decent sized Flanking Assault might be a good approach with fast shooty units.  Outriders and Javelin Speeders come to mind for me since I have some of those.  Also good to have Master of Signal, and perhaps go with Recon Rite of War, to leverage better going first potential and rerolling reserve rolls.  Get the snipers in place and hop in from the edges with the blasty things, ready for turn 2-3 charges. 

Really seems like no way to charge turn 2 unless we can weather the storm with some jump packers turn 1, which is super risky with the expensive units like Dark Furies.  But we do not worship Khorne, so patience may be a virture.  Sneak and strike when the best opportunity arises. 

Where is our Wraithslipping rule?!?!  Should make enemies reroll successful shooty hits when doing that.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Since models still can't charge turn one when they have Infiltrated, does it make more sense to lean more on deepstriking when deployging jump-troops? This way, they are off the board turn one and can't get shot. Or does the combination of intercept/overwatch make it not really worth the risk of a mishap?

I'd have to look, but you are limited to not charging if you go first. If you go second you can still charge in the first game turn after infiltrating etc.

[Claws and Effect]

On 8/31/2022 at 6:45 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

I just put my custom helmets on all my Raven Guard guys today.  Looking at my collection, I think I still need more foot guys.  I keep seeing our Infiltration being mentioned as the main reason for our army.

I've got 20 assault squad guys (all pistol/sword), 10 Dark Furies, 10 Mortalis Despoilers (bolt pistols and 2 rad missile launchers), 10 tactical guys, rhino, leviathan w claw and drill (phospex too, magnetized the flamers/volkites), Forgelord on bike w 3 melta bikers, magnetized Moritat, and Kaedes Nex, and a Praetor w jumppack and Raven Talons.

Is it dum to even take a rhino for Raven Guard tacticals?  Haven't read about infiltrating/scouting for dedicated transports yet.  Or should I just slap some scopes and long barrels on them and call them Recon snipers?  Seekers probably need special looking bolters.

I for sure will make a couple Apothecaries w jump packs.  Guess if I leave the Tacticals as-is, I can run a 20 dude assault squad.

I like Tac squads in Rhinos. 

 

Infiltrate and Scout confer to dedicated transports, but ONLY dedicated transports. If you stick them in a Land Raider they can't do it 

[Lord Krungharr]

Ah, that is pretty handy then.  Keeps them moderately more protected.  If I win some store credit at an Age of Sigmar tournament tomorrow I think maybe I'll pick up another Rhino or Razorback or something with the Rhino chassis.  Good for my Mor Deythans too probably.

I just have Corax, a couple land speeders, and some snipers and apothecaries to bash together, then I'll be ready to lay on the BLACK.

[Mandragola]

I agree that rhinos are a good option for Mor Deythan in particular. It’s a good way to keep them alive long enough to get into position to unleash their crazy rending volley. It might even be worth sticking a multimelta on the thing for a chance at popping enemy transports. Probably not though. 

[The Scorpion]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:42 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Multi-meltas are twin-linked. Which gives you somewhere in the ballpark of ~80% success rate of fire. So BS 4 doesn't really matter.

I do think having power fists or power axes in the squad is important to be  to wound TEQ on 2s-3s or at least get your re-roll to wounds of 1s on the charge and force invulnerablesaves. Which you should be able to do with vox re-rolls. Raven's talons are good, but you mostly are fishing for 5+ which is more important to get the shred re-rolls against things like T6+ at initiatives.

With multi-meltas available to Justaerin, Deliverers and Dominators, there should be an upgrade like the resin one for the assault cannon

[General Zodd]

1 hour ago, The Scorpion said:

With multi-meltas available to Justaerin, Deliverers and Dominators, there should be an upgrade like the resin one for the assault cannon

It’s not the most cost efficient, but there *is* a multimelta in the Justaerin weapons set. You could always sell off the accompanying Carsoran power axes to needy Sons of Horus players to help subsidise?

[Mandragola]

If money wasn’t a factor (and I didn’t have 10 unbuilt Cataphracti from AoD to work with) I’d just buy Justaerin to represent Deliverers. I’d remove a few eyes of Horus, preferably to be replaced with ravens but keep the studs and things. Failing that I’m considering the DG shoulder pads currently available. I’d remove the actual DG insignia but keep the archaic-looking ridges. That wouldn’t be a good use of funds though!