HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[WAR]

or I save the PM for ZM games. I have other HQs I want to use instead of PM and Warmonger for most games

[Claws and Effect]

1 hour ago, TheNineteenth said:

The Warmonger could Deep Strike with them, but the PM couldn't. Maybe you had a different mobility scheme in mind?

Doesn't the Warmonger grant Deep Strike to any unit he joins? If that's the case it should confer it to the PM too. 

[WAR]

8 minutes ago, Claws and Effect said:

Doesn't the Warmonger grant Deep Strike to any unit he joins? If that's the case it should confer it to the PM too. 

that's what I was thinking too. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Looks like if you join a Warmonger Consul to any unit, even say, Mor Deythans, they can Deepstrike!  BUT you have to roll for each model in the unit after Deepstriking, and on a 1 that model suffers a wound that only invul saves can be taken against.  Definitely better with Cataphractiis.  Though with Deliverers being part of our toolkit, not really a great need for the Warmonger, except for maybe Pride of the Legion perhaps?

Had my first game with the XIXth vs Thousand Sons tonight, 1500pts Dominion.  

-I had Decapitation Strike (the Shrouded bonus never even came into play) Praetor (Hidden Hand trait)/CorvidPack/Raven Talons w 10 Dark Furies and Apothecary; Assault Squad bare bones, Tac Squad barebones, 10 Mor Deythan/7 combi-volkite/2 missiles/power lance/apothecary/rhino/Kaedes Nex; Javelin w las/MM. 

-He had Praetor/Paragon Blade/some pistol w 20 Tac Squad guys and assorted pistols/power axe; Despoiler squad/pistols/maybe power weapon(s)/rhino w multimelta; Contemptor Talon w 2x dual Kheres/1 MM and claw; Leviathan/claw/storm cannon/phospex.

-I 'deployed' first, and had nothing on the table, then he deployed everything.  Then I had a total brain fart and infiltrated the Mor Deythans in rhino way up to my left thinking they could score that objective, not remembering that only Line units score.  Oh well.  First and 2nd turn Night Fight.  They did Fatal Strike and killed the MM Contemptor.  Then they reembarked and tried to get back to the center but got wrecked and had to run, and eventually survivors w Kaedes made it the middle again, but never did anything else (didn't want them facing down a Leviathan and 2 Contemptors, which they failed to wound when they had a chance at shooting them).  My tac squad scored a couple points before dying way on the right side, facing down the Despoilers. 

Deep Strike Blues-Turn 2 my Assault Squad came down on my close by left side objective.  Then I rolled a 1 for the Dark Fury unit and he placed them way back to my left.  They spent turn 3 running 18" up, and managed to assault a Contemptor turn 4 and killed it....then they got shot up and then Leviathaned bottom of turn 4 :p  By then my Assault Squad had jumped up to assault his big Tac squad but bounced off and ended up getting swept in combat!  Tac squad got Despoiled.

Definitely a fun fast furious good learning game.  My bone-headed deployment and terrible luck deep striking was costly, and Dreadnoughts are fiercely tough.  Had I properly focused the Mor Deythans and Furies onto his LIne units and sort of ignored his Dreads, I think I could have won.  Theory is Line units shouldn't be engaging much of anything, however if a Line unit is in the position of strength and has opportunity to de-Line an objective being held by the enemy, I think it's proper to engage.

Next time I may some different units, like a Leviathan myself, perhaps some bikers and/or a Dreadclaw.  Or I might try Iron Hands to see how the strength debuff goes.  But I sure like the tricky deployment stuff Ravens can do.  The extra Movement Phase Reaction of the Decapitation Strike is pretty handy.  At 1500 though no Corax.  I need some Recons already.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I personally don't think the Hidden Hand is any better than Bane of Tyrants or No Gods or Masters unless you're bringing a ton of deep strike, and even then most armies you play against should have bubble wrapping units & a Master of Signals in it to disorder your drop followed up by intercepting with cover ignoring weapons.

Being able to infiltrate over half your army puts some major strain on the opponent. This gives you much more flexibility, I'm more inclined to start everything on the board with maybe a single unit in reserve, especially if I have Corax who is going to be the warlord and can tank the dark furies big shots. We've already agreed to ignore the fearless rule on shrouded for primarchs anyway.

[The Scorpion]

Hear me out: Recon Company

 

Back in 1.0, this vanilla RoW had more synergies than Decapitation Strike imo. Tons of stealth bonuses could be stacked over the basic troops, by a combination of legion rules and unique wargear. It was fluffy too since XIXth legion tactical marines are a blend of tactical and recon according to Black Book lore.

 

But is Recon Company still worth it in 2.0? I know it has strong synergies with White Scars (another scout legion) because of stacking initiative bonuses, but what use can the XIXth make of it?

 

[Mandragola]

I think recon company is most useful as an alpha strike too, thanks to giving you a better chance of going first. Raven Guard can launch very scary alpha strikes thanks to the ability to infiltrate stuff close to the enemy, after you know who's going first. You can have things like Mor Deythan turn up near the enemy and shoot them up before landing a second punch with things like deliverers and dark furies on turn 2. Even just infiltrating tacticals to objectives where they can sit and chuck fury at things is very useful.

The downside is that RG recon squads aren't all that different to anyone else's. All recon squads can infiltrate, after all. But still, a few snipers are handy and a shotgun unit is a cheap Line unit.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/20/2022 at 5:19 PM, Claws and Effect said:

Doesn't the Warmonger grant Deep Strike to any unit he joins? If that's the case it should confer it to the PM too. 

I don't believe there is any such conference of rules.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

17 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I think recon company is most useful as an alpha strike too, thanks to giving you a better chance of going first. Raven Guard can launch very scary alpha strikes thanks to the ability to infiltrate stuff close to the enemy, after you know who's going first. You can have things like Mor Deythan turn up near the enemy and shoot them up before landing a second punch with things like deliverers and dark furies on turn 2. Even just infiltrating tacticals to objectives where they can sit and chuck fury at things is very useful.

The downside is that RG recon squads aren't all that different to anyone else's. All recon squads can infiltrate, after all. But still, a few snipers are handy and a shotgun unit is a cheap Line unit.

Seems to me an allied detachment of night lords would be a boon with affecting LD and pinning tests.

That's something tasty for sure.

[WAR]

10 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

I don't believe there is any such conference of rules.

Warmonger granting deep strike or to the PM joined to Deliverers then Warmonger joining squad granting deep strike 

[MichaelCarmine]

Regarding the Bane of Tyrants warlord trait - i want to equip my Praetor with a Hammer the next games to try out his Str. 10/12 Brutal(2) Challenge-potentiel.

I'm not really convinced, that it's really necessary to choose this WL trait, other then maximising the number of attacks, or when facing Salamanders HQs, Abaddon, or Mechanicum HQs...

What's your experience with that Kombi?

For my Playstyle i mostly went with Hidden Hand, which helped me quite alot.

But i do want to use less Deep Striking the next games, since it's starting to get boring.

[WAR]

I plan on not deep striking my DF or assault marines for most games….deliverers I probably will deepstrike most of the games the get used in. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

5 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Regarding the Bane of Tyrants warlord trait - i want to equip my Praetor with a Hammer the next games to try out his Str. 10/12 Brutal(2) Challenge-potentiel.

I'm not really convinced, that it's really necessary to choose this WL trait, other then maximising the number of attacks, or when facing Salamanders HQs, Abaddon, or Mechanicum HQs...

What's your experience with that Kombi?

For my Playstyle i mostly went with Hidden Hand, which helped me quite alot.

But i do want to use less Deep Striking the next games, since it's starting to get boring.

Main thing about BoT is to have more swings than your opponent on being instant deathed from strength 8+ if you do get the chance to be in prolonged combat against a praetor without a fist or hammer you have the advantage then, the main reason to take it is wound summary for combat resolution.

That's been my experience. Stoic Defender with an archeotech pistol is pretty good since it's breaching 3+ and gives you a chance to pin a unit you wish to assault.

[TheNineteenth]

7 hours ago, WAR said:

Warmonger granting deep strike or to the PM joined to Deliverers then Warmonger joining squad granting deep strike 

Neither the Warmonger nor the Deliverers could confer Deep Strike to the PM.

[MichaelCarmine]

4 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Main thing about BoT is to have more swings than your opponent on being instant deathed from strength 8+ if you do get the chance to be in prolonged combat against a praetor without a fist or hammer you have the advantage then, the main reason to take it is wound summary for combat resolution.

That's been my experience. Stoic Defender with an archeotech pistol is pretty good since it's breaching 3+ and gives you a chance to pin a unit you wish to assault.

Yeah but spending a Warlord trait, just to get 1,2 attacks in a challenge? I don't want to go into a challenge with my warlord in the first place - i can't tell you how many Praetors/HQs i've seen fall to a powerfist sergeant in a challenge.

Yeah you've overrun a tactical squad... bit i got a VP for killing your warlord in the process. You know, what i'm sayin?

I tend to stay out of challenges with my warlord, unless i got an initiative advantage over instakill weapons.

That way he kills 4 models instead of a sergeant and still forces a moralecheck with a modifier - but lives to tell the tale!

 

Edit: and for limiting reactions i rather bring a librarian - way more reliable, can cancel reactions for up to 2 units and doesn't care about stubborn! =]

Edited September 23, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Bane is +S +A makes him S6 -7 5 attacks base. so he's wound sergeants on 2s and cleaving through them. Against cataphractii or S8 just let your chieftain take the challenges if you roll deliverers with a praetor.

Although traitor RG's No God's or Masters is pretty awesome if you aren't bringing Deliverers to the table.

[Lord Krungharr]

9 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

Neither the Warmonger nor the Deliverers could confer Deep Strike to the PM.

But if the PM joins the unit, isn't he then part of the unit, and the Warmonger gives deep strike to the unit he joins?  

[TheNineteenth]

7 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

But if the PM joins the unit, isn't he then part of the unit, and the Warmonger gives deep strike to the unit he joins?  

P246 Independent Characters, Special Rules 

To paraphrase, no; unless a given special rule says it confers to any independent characters. 

Annoyingly, I think this means that you can only give it to another IC or to a Squad (because it isn't a special rule in an enumerated "allow" list that confers; the example given is Stubborn). 

There is also a paragraph making it clear that Independent Characters without Infiltrate can't deploy with a Squad with Infiltrate. This may apply here, too, but may have just been specific because of historical reasons (the FAQ back and forths with Shadow Captain Shrike and conferring Infiltrate going back to 40k3rd). 

Edited September 24, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Here are some units I've enjoyed playing with so far for raven guard, and some things I look forward to.

The chaplain is hands down my favorite consul, and I can't believe in the early stages of playing this game I waved him off thinking the Decapitation Strike was comprobable. I was So. Damn. Wrong! He brings so much more to the table than I ever expected. He is a staple to my lists.

A Proteus land speeder squadron with a bolter and multi-melta combination clocks in at 8.5 melta bombs each. While they can't deny or score, they have been an incredibly good unit for me. I treat them like a scimitar jetbike squad with an additional wound and better firing protocols. One of the best things about them is when they draw fire power I can evade and then re-roll the shroud mitigation due to their inherent rules. They are a great harassment unit and have really surprised a lot of players because people don't field them. I run a squad of 3, though I am hard contemplating maxing the squad out. This is due to the footprint they can bring to the table, the charging and driving lanes they can block, and they have twin-linked multi-meltas and T5 so they aren't being instant deathed on anything baring Strength 10, so they can hold their own in a fire fight.

Volkite Cavaliers in a 10 man squad with an augury scanner or infravisor (depending on how I feel) is a dominant unit in my lists. While I run into a lot of rotor cannons, and understand that is probably the best support squad, I have found that an infiltrated support squad in a crows nest or forward unit set up in the opponent's line with an Apothecary has just been fantastic for me. They deal so much sustainable damage and I hate not having a squad of them in my lists. Being able to throw 30 shots into an IC lead squad re-rolling 1s to hit followed by re-rolling 1s to wound when you wound most things on a 2 is just very very good. 

I'm looking forward to fielding my own Master of Signals at some point. If I can make room for a third IC he's definitely one I want to try and utilize in the the volkite squad or a rotor cannons squad down the line.

A librarian consul with telepathy or biomancy seems like a solid choice, though I think I would only take one in a traitor force.

Speaking of traitors, I like a lot of what the traitor rules offer, but I feel limited by not being able to field good deliverers. I don't think I will ever take a unit of deliverers in a traitor based force, which is where they should really shine.

[WAR]

4 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

P246 Independent Characters, Special Rules 

To paraphrase, no; unless a given special rule says it confers to any independent characters. 

Annoyingly, I think this means that you can only give it to another IC or to a Squad (because it isn't a special rule in an enumerated "allow" list that confers; the example given is Stubborn). 

 

I agree with you after reading over the IC rules and the Warmonger special rules due to the key word "Unit".  Warmonger states "Unit" gains his abilities the PM is an IC so not a "Unit"

[MichaelCarmine]

21 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Bane is +S +A makes him S6 -7 5 attacks base. so he's wound sergeants on 2s and cleaving through them. Against cataphractii or S8 just let your chieftain take the challenges if you roll deliverers with a praetor.

Although traitor RG's No God's or Masters is pretty awesome if you aren't bringing Deliverers to the table.

You do not seem to have read my post - i run the praetor with a hammer, so i already wound sergeants of all kinds (except Sons of horus in the first round of melee) on 2s. and since they are all brutal 2, i do much more damage, than any other weapon could do with 1 or 2 attacks more through the warlordtrait. 

So while my hammer wielding Preator would get Str. 10/12 with his hammer and 1/2 attacks more in a challenge, i can't see a real benefit in the game, since I1 would still mean, that a Sergeants powerfist could down me with 1 hit.

So i'd rather let him strike at the unit, where the trait doesn't give you anything.

Same with No gods... it reads cool, but when does your preator really benefit from it? when he is in a challenge against maybe 5 Unique ICs in the game, so almost never... Where it will be good, is against the upcomming Custodes Shieldcaptains/Unique Chars.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

5 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

You do not seem to have read my post - i run the praetor with a hammer, so i already wound sergeants of all kinds (except Sons of horus in the first round of melee) on 2s. and since they are all brutal 2, i do much more damage, than any other weapon could do with 1 or 2 attacks more through the warlordtrait. 

So while my hammer wielding Preator would get Str. 10/12 with his hammer and 1/2 attacks more in a challenge, i can't see a real benefit in the game, since I1 would still mean, that a Sergeants powerfist could down me with 1 hit.

So i'd rather let him strike at the unit, where the trait doesn't give you anything.

Same with No gods... it reads cool, but when does your preator really benefit from it? when he is in a challenge against maybe 5 Unique ICs in the game, so almost never... Where it will be good, is against the upcomming Custodes Shieldcaptains/Unique Chars.

 

I thought you meant paragon blade wielding i understand the thunder hammer. I think it just depends on comp. Hitting on 5s with 2 attacks and no bonuses is rare to get through and if you run a librarian with Biomancy I would always issues challenges then.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Can confirm. Master of Signals + 10 man volkite cavalier support squad in Decapitation Strike RoW will absolutely destroy an IC unit. 30 hits, 30 wounds, lots of deflag. Side note, make sure you run an Apothecary cause the unit will get shot at.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/24/2022 at 10:13 AM, WAR said:

I agree with you after reading over the IC rules and the Warmonger special rules due to the key word "Unit".  Warmonger states "Unit" gains his abilities the PM is an IC so not a "Unit"

The IC is a Unit before joining the Unit composed of the squad. All individual Models like ICs, single Vehicles (including Dedicated Transports), etc are Units unless bought as an FoC choice with other Models (Models in a Squad, Vehicles in a Squadron; Apothecaries, Techmarines, and Dreadnought Talons are special cases), and even then, DTs are still units. lol 

So, the Warmonger could give Deep Strike to on IC, but not to both an IC and a separate Unit that is a Squad, and sadly, as I explained above, Special Rules don't confer from joined Unit to IC or likewise (except where explicitly stated, i.e. Stubborn). 

A cumbersome aspect of the game and its 40k ancestor is the weird Venn diagram between Units, Kill Points, and FoC choices, especially given the mixture scenarios (attaching Independent Characters, assigning Apothecaries and Techmarines and weirdo DA Centurions to non-Terminator Infantry Units, etc).

Edited September 27, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been on the fence the last couple weeks on what I want to fill out my Heavy slot with. Currently I main a Kratos as for AV with flare shields. I havent decided if I should add a second Kratos, or a Leviathan Talon. The Kratos puts out so many shots, but the Leviathans are tough as nails and fantastic back line/mid field counter weights. Both options feel right.