How are people adapting to the massive changes?

[MegaVolt87]

2 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

@MegaVolt87 I'm afraid I don't understand your comments on mortals taking over the codex.  There's an expanded range of them coming, yes, but in general they're not that good.  Mobs are still useful chaff, but Legionaries have so many options that Mobs aren't going to be taking over as the Troops of choice like in 6th & 7th.  The Cultist units also have severe restrictions in their rules like no traits, and fewer strats and relics available to them.

 

Looking at the lists coming out in other media, it looks to me like Terminators and Possessed are providing a significant amount of the punch we'll see early on.

 

Quantity has a quality all on its own. The good lists will be as you say, backed up by more elite units such as possessed. As a pure CSM player who wants nothing to do with such mortal units, I don't see the army competing on the same level without them. Its clear the intended design was melee, mortal units, demonic units working in one force not just pure CSM like before. The book is a fancy Lost and the dammed codex in essence and perfect for quite a few legions, not for people who want to run just CSM. I don't want to buy, paint or own the mortal units that are needed to make the book viable. To be fair, I would like to buy into the demon engine angle but- the old demon engines and the hellbrute are also in need of new models, they look not as detailed, well scaled or bespoke anymore to the direction of the new CSM range. I don't care how good or busted the new rules are for say the defiler, I would still not buy one, such models are past their prime. If I want demonic vehicles, chaos knights are a far better prospect for that with new, superior models and design for chaos.

I have seen nothing in the new codex that I want to build towards for my existing army, and GW hasn't done enough to sell me on starting a new CSM army either with the same tired models. It also doesn't help that historically, CSM have been the worst army in 40k that invalidates most players existing armies and collections, the churn is oppressive. I would not even wish what was done here to CSM loadouts etc on even the loyalist SM's. No one should have to deal with that. Why dose the CSM faction have to be designed while consulting the monkey paw each time? And boy, are those fingers curling big time here. 

EDIT- and on the loss of jump lords, hey why would we want those when that all but confirmed new demon prince with wings via the AoS chaos leaks is all but confirmed? Oh gee thanks GW, I'll just go ahead and replace that to have the privilege of a character that moves fast. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[Gothical]

I haven't gone through the Stratagems, Traits, Legion rules and Relics in detail yet, I only got the book this morning and was more focused on the basic unit profiles.

I really dislike the weird ways that Terminators, Chosen and Legionaries have restricted equipment. If it wasn't for that little asterisk I would love the basic CSM squad (it seems the only reason that restriction exists is so the basic squad doesn't outshine the elites with their restricted equipment). The addition of the Heavy Chainaxe and Balefire Tome help to improve their potential - Smite and Infernal Gaze add some "ranged" output, Prescience makes the whole squad better at melee, and Diabolic Strength means a Champion with decent melee weapon or a Heavy Chainaxe can really do some damage (or be used to boost a nearby Lord etc). By my reading on the rules, Marks of Chaos means a Balefire Tome unit gains the Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh powers too, which will make Legionaries very hard to shift. 

I know it is based on kit load-outs but the Terminators are just painful. At least you can take 2 Combi-Melta/Flamer, I read it as only 1 of each Combi at first, but the 1 Chainfist and 1 Combi-Plasma just feels so very awkward. Lightning Claws being Accursed Weapons feels like it sucks the diversity out as well. I feel it would have been nice to have 2 Heavy Weapons in the unit to make up for loss of Combi-Weapon options, but I wouldn't want to field 1 Reaper and 1 Heavy Flamer in a 5-man squad so I guess there is no real loss. Termicide is certainly dead, but I think they can still be a viable unit once all the additional options in the book are stacked - Marks, benefitting from Powers, Legion Traits, Stratagems and so on. For small units I can see making an anti-tank squad with 2 Combi-Melta, some Power Fists and a Chainfist on the Champion (who also perhaps takes a Combi-Plasma. MAYBE the unit takes a Reaper Autocannon but I think I would rather have 2 bullet-spongers, but with 3 wounds each is that necessary?); or an anti-infantry squad with 2 Combi-Flamers, Heavy Flamer (remember the Let The Galaxy Burn bonus) and pair of Accursed Weapons on the Champion. Units of 10 might be viable too, with 2 Heavies, 4 matching Combis and 2 Combi-Plasma along with a mix of melee weapons (2x Chainfists, 2x dual-Accursed, up to 6 Power Fists). Although the lack of an Icon is a shame, the first bullet-point ability of the Marks of Chaos will all be useful.

Chosen are in a weird spot having restricted wargear choices too. I do see them as having a niche anti-MEQ role, which interestingly the Terminators are worse at ranged-wise, with 2 Plasma Pistols and 2 Combi-Plasma per 5. A squad of 10 can really melt some faces and mop up the survivors in melee. Note these guys can take an Icon, unlike Terminators, so benefit from the second part of the Mark of Chaos abilities which further enhances their lethality alongside benefitting from all 3 "Wanton" rules when they kill someone. Throw in Powers and Prayers on top of that and they will hit like a ton of bricks. I think these might be a bit of a sleeper unit as the wargear restrictions make them look mediocre but can stack abilities through the roof if you want.

Non-Terminator characters have basically no wargear choices, but I think that is where the vast array of Relics comes into play. That is awkward with the Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim changes to Command Points (and yes, unfair compared to Loyalists), but some of the early-game shenanigans the Loyalists could do are now limited by the same restrictions, especially if they choose to use some of the powerful Relic/Trait combinations. A Terminator Lord is the go-to now if you want to keep your CP pool high but still have a decent character (alternatively you can use a Daemon Prince or Lord Discordant if those fit with your army).

My heart dropped when I saw the Havoc entry but then I realised that you can replace any of the weapons despite the initial squad load-out. That was a worrying read initially, especially with all the official pictures of 2x2 weapon units).

Building Cultist units is now easier than ever (mix of Lasgun and Autogun models, or even more esoteric weapons like black-powder guns or crossbows, permitted as generic "Cultist Firearms" means more conversion options) and can have a variety of Special Weapons if you want some variety in the horde. They seem useful but won't overshadow other choices, which is as they should be. Accursed Cultists make a slightly better bullet-sponge unit and are actually a melee threat but regular Cultists are cheaper and can still perform Actions (plus fit into some Legions better than mutant rabble) so it is nice to see both types of unit having a place.

Obliterators still look pretty good to me - short range is offset by Warp Strike, the profiles are nicely powerful (Warp Hail strong enough to decently wound Orks, easily wound Guard/Eldar, Ruinous Salvo for taking down Marines and light vehicles with -2AP and 2 Damage, Focused Malice is a decent anti-tank shot albeit more vulnerable to random shots than the other two profiles. Remember the stats are per Obliterator, so 2 or even 3 are going to throw out a hell of a lot of damage against any target. The Crushing Fists are also very good and the ability to shoot whilst engaged further ups their "melee" power so I think these will be real stars again and go through almost any unit like a hot knife through butter.

I love the changes to vehicles. The Helbrute looks decent enough (Plasma Cannon so any Overheat triggers Frenzy for the rest of the game is an interesting idea, can have Marks of Chaos - Khorne and Slaanesh will make it nasty in combat, Tzeentch and Nurgle harder to hurt). The Venomcrawler is neat and doesn't have a degrading profile (remember Balefire Tome Legionaries are Psykers so benefit from Reservoir of Daemonic Energy), whilst the Forgefiend can now shoot worth a damn, the Maulerfiend is going to be brutal and the Heldrake is now lethal again with Baleflamer and Let The Galaxy Burn. The Twin Soulshatter Lascannons on Predator/Land Raider look very nice (although it makes me reluctant to take regular Lascannons now these exist), and a Vindicator with Combi-Melta and Siege Shield will be fun. Ultimately the only vehicle I am not sure about is the Defiler.

Raptors, Warp Talons, Bikers and Spawn (butts of jokes in the last books) seem pretty good, and the new Possessed are finally reliable powerhouse melee units but weirdly cannot take a Mark of Chaos (only CORE or CHARACTER can - so the only other Daemon-typed units in the book that can take Marks are the Daemon Prince and the Lord Discordant)

All-in-all I really dislike the changes to Lords, Terminators, Chosen and the weird restriction on Legionaries but the rest of the book feels solid, fun and with a lot of different options and playstyles to keep things fresh and suit most themes. Hopefully the Legion rules, Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits all come out at least decent when I go through those in detail, but even if they don't the book has a really solid foundation in its datasheet units to keep things fun even if they don't.

Finally, what may be giving me a more positive opinion than many others is that my CSM has been sitting on the sprues waiting for a new Codex since Marines got boosted at the edition start, so I am lucky that I don't have to rearrange squads or pull models apart to try to fit legal builds into the more restricted framework. I completely understand the frustration for everybody with existing collections that have to make such changes.

[Guzzlrr]

The Negativity around this codex has really taken me offline, threads everywhere with people repeating the same thing dooming the codex before it was even released.

 

I've said it before yes I understand the frustration, but it's more frustrating to see people Torpedoing the codex before they even Tried it.

I'm loving the black legion stuff so far nothing but good Vibes, AoC makes Possessed hit not quite as hard as I would like.

Obliterators are good in close combat now. Drop, shoot n charge now for real.

10 man Terminator Squad MoN with a MoP is pretty good as well. Especially when escorting Abaddon

MSU is definitely the way to go, especially with Mon +Grandfather's blessings (can go on a Hell brute which can also be boosted to T8 and have Mon )

 

I love this codex

 

 

 

 

[Prot]

Like some of you, I have been doing this for a very long time with Chaos armies. I think 3rd edition onwards CSM has been a very hot topic and often neglected, and seen as the ugly step child of GW.  So honestly, I expect and kind of look forward to the opening salvo's of hyper reaction to the codex. Over the past 7 editions it has been fun to revisit these opening opinions after the codex has been out for 3-6 months. 

So I can only speak for myself. I've played nearly every chaos legion competitively. Frankly I found my large Black Legion army quite difficult to compete with leading up to Covid. I sold them, but I have to say, they look extremely well rounded now, and I bet I would fare far better. As it stands I think Abaddon is incredibly potent, an easy to conceal model, healable, and seems the perfect hybrid of Vaul and Guilliman. We will see if he sticks at 300 points.

A lot of people trying to make a big deal out of bringing back Oblits from the dead. I don't think the ATV 'scandal' of the opening moments of 9th edition would even be a thing now. I guess some things never change. Again, we will have to wait and see.

A lot of people declaring losers at this stage. I like to let the smoke settle. My big picture look here had me leaning into a new Legion for myself. But I don't like being stuck in a playstyle, and I feel like although the codex is well rounded, certain choices can pigeon hole you.

From above. the Codex seems to lean pretty hard into close combat. Just looking at overall options it feels as if the Assault Phase will have a plethora of strategies, and benefits, meanwhile shooting is strong in small amounts. 

I am with the overall consensus at this point on lost options which just don't make sense to me, and perhaps show a lack of history with the codex writers? I am at a loss for some of the changes. Will I go on without them? Yes. However, this is definitely a lost opportunity and will be missed, and probably never corrected.

Part of the negative bias I have is, I admit, my long term playing 'bias' with Chaos. I see them as championing the classic units from chaos of old. And there is disparity in this with the new codex. Case and point: The Landraider vs. Chosen. Also in every edition I have used a lot of Chaos Terminators. This is literally the first time I can think of in my history of 40K that I'm considering not doing them with this codex. (Although I just bought a new box of them!)

The positives are plentiful though. The internal balance seems really good. I must be a weird one though because I'm liking the overall feel and vibe I'm getting from some Legions people are simply dismissing at this point.  Night Lords being one. It seems there are obvious winners, but I like the power of using a subtle force, that can get the job done in the right hands. I never thought I'd consider Night Lords, or Emperor's Children. Both appeal to me right now. (I do really hate the loss of a Nightlords Biker Lord or Raptor Lord - aka Harkaan World Claimer would have been amazing for NL) 

There's a lot to unpack in this codex. I've gone through it a few times, and have come up with great ideas for the obvious choices: Black Legion, Red Corsairs, and ideas for old faves of mine like Iron Warriors. But there is play and some good strategy that appeals to me in the Night Lords, or others. ( I have friends that play WB and AL so I won't be looking at them.)

Anyway, Legion traits are big, but so are Warlord Traits, and Relics. Less so strats, because GW have made a decision I really don't like in costing all WL traits/Relics while halving CP. But these items define the Legions as much as the Legion traits themselves, and there are some gems in there. Also the way these 'Legion defining choices' are important. I think the way you choose to compliment them with specific codex choices is going to be really big.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Prot

[Bulwyf]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:32 AM, nanosquid said:

Played my first game with the new codex already, and I really don't get this thread. Yes, you're less able to specialize a squad to one role with just the weapons and war gear options, but the addition of the ability to make a psyker part of the unit is absolutely massive. Everything plays really well and the legion rules are head and shoulders above what I had hoped. Comparing this to Rian Johnson's sacrilege is way overblowing it. I understand the loss of jump pack lords and sorcerers hurts, but it's really, genuinely, not THAT big of a deal.

 

EDIT:

 

Going back and reading more of the previous replies... what book are you people looking at??? The Night Lords complaints make me scratch my head the most. Nearly half of the major units you'd want with NL also have an additional -1LD aura on the datasheet, meaning you hit the 5 threshold on marines even before you start using spells, relics, and WLT. Is the tournament scene really such a hellscape? If so, why are you playing tournaments? Isn't the point of this hobby to have fun?

Story time. I tried to play my NL at a FLGS to test out the codex. We did not play. Why? Because we could not agree on what "unit leadership" meant for the NL legion rules. He was playing Space Wolves. He said the highest morale model in a unit is the "unit leadership". I disagreed because that is one model in a unit. The rest of the unit has lower leadership. This needs to be FAQed by GW. There is nothing in the rule book that actually defines what "unit leadership" actually is. The Morale phase is the only place where you use the highest LD in a unit but that is for Morale phase. It does not definite "unit leadership".  If GW rules that the "unit leadership" is the highest LD in a unit then the NL legion rules are completely worthless. Almost every army in 40k has high leadership including the ones you are going to play against 90% of the time in space marines, either loyal or chaos.  So I could not even get a game in because my opponent and I could not agree on what "unit leadership" means because he flat out said he didn't want me to have my own army rule to work against his army. Thanks GW! 

And to respond to some of your comments most NL players don't run demon units since the fluff of NL has been that they hate Chaos and view those that use it as weak. Now that's not saying that everyone has to do that since you can run your army however you want as long as it is legal. I don't have demon units in my NL army except for one, a demon prince, to represent the Painted Count and even then I rarely use him. So no, you aren't getting "half" the units with an additional -1 LD aura. It is only a handful of units that have it. And if you are playing fluffy you don't have hardly any of them. 

Further about NL, their WL traits and relics are terrible. If you look at reviews of the codex and the ranking of the best and worst CSM legions the NL are either dead last or one above Alpha Legion as the worst. This is yet another codex where NL have bad rules tied to a mechanic that never works and NL are again either the worst or next to worst among CSM armies.

As a long time player of NL it got old years ago. We deserve to have good rules. 

[BrainFireBob]

Note: There are two trigger conditions for the wounding ability. There's also a stratagem that improves to-hit at Ld6. I read it as a "Finish them off trait".

[BrainFireBob]

Other observations:

No bonus CP for Abaddon or Huron.

Haarken might be worth taking with raptors at last. Rerolls in shooting and CC to-hit and to-wound. But so expensive.

Dark Disciples being not optional, screwing transports, is so "why?"

On a rethink, 4 combi melta, 2 combiplasma, two reapers, and 2 combi bolters (one of which could be a relic) is potentially OK for firepower. I really only need to swap 4 arms. Needs a think.

 

 

[danodan123]

Has anyone seen the command point shenanigans with word bearers ? A master of possession turn one gets 3 command points on 2+ rolls of d6 turn one just by manifesting 3 powers (which he can do with a relic and warlord trait) then on 3+  turn 2 and so on, couple this with the action from the legion secondary (which he can cast powers and do each turn) you can get 4 command points per turn! 

 

Maybe night Lords are the crappy legion instead of word bearers this turn ? :D

[danodan123]

12 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

I thought you can only ever gain 1 CP per phase per turn

If that's the case, nevermind :D

[SillyDreadnought]

On 6/30/2022 at 4:28 PM, Bulwyf said:

They are so putrid that since you now have to take CP to take a WL trait or relic you have zero reason to actually TAKE a NL warlord trait OR relic.

It's worth pointing out that this only applies if you're playing Warzone: Nephilim games.

if you play Eternal War games from the core rulebook, you don't have to deal with the dinosaur plaster attempt at balancing the unbalancable.

[Isengrin]

5 hours ago, Prot said:

(...)

The positives are plentiful though. The internal balance seems really good. I must be a weird one though because I'm liking the overall feel and vibe I'm getting from some Legions people are simply dismissing at this point.  Night Lords being one. It seems there are obvious winners, but I like the power of using a subtle force, that can get the job done in the right hands. I never thought I'd consider Night Lords, or Emperor's Children. Both appeal to me right now. (I do really hate the loss of a Nightlords Biker Lord or Raptor Lord - aka Harkaan World Claimer would have been amazing for NL) 

There's a lot to unpack in this codex. I've gone through it a few times, and have come up with great ideas for the obvious choices: Black Legion, Red Corsairs, and ideas for old faves of mine like Iron Warriors. But there is play and some good strategy that appeals to me in the Night Lords, or others. ( I have friends that play WB and AL so I won't be looking at them.)

(...)

Night Lords getting consideration based on their rules not just their background is such an unusual sight, it will take me some time getting used to that.  I really hope that raptor lords will return in the near future with a new datasheet/model, but in the meantime house rules have to take care of that issue.

I'm really looking forward to trying out the new NL terror tactics. This might be the first time ever that a combination of raptors, warp talons, and possessed becomes potent now that they got a significant increase in CC output, and the LD debuffs help too. Triggering the second part of the trait shouldn't be an easy gimme, so I don't mind that I'll have to work for it and it also feels more in character with NL that they get stronger after gaining the upper hand or when hunting down diminished units. 

[Gothical]

To clarify a little, I have been on-and-off collecting Chaos Space Marines since 3rd Edition, you know the dark-reddish skinny codex with the close-up of the Chaos Lord's face on the cover. For a few years I was awaiting new basic CSM models to dive back into my Iron Warriors, but those models came and regular Space Marines got a significant buff that left the poor bad boys in the dust. This has meant that my modern units have sat on the sprues so luckily I can adapt very easily and don't have the heartache associated with the new restrictions. Finally we have an up-to-date Codex and a fantastic model range for the most part (Bikers and Defiler I am looking at you!) and whilst I wait for my true love (Imperial Guard) to get an update I am really excited to get my first ever 40K faction back on the table.

At the moment I think this is the best Chaos Space Marines codex since the halcyon days of the so-called 3.5 book. Everything feels like it has a place and although there are clearly some Legions stronger than others, none feel like they are pointless - even Night Lords look decent (remember it is LD5 OR under half-strength to trigger the +1 To Wound, and the army now has some brutal firepower to get units under half) with some strong Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics (and a very nice Secondary Objective option).

The restrictions on Terminators and Chosen still make me sad, although viable units of both can be made it is still a shame to lose such great customisation. Having gone through the Stratagems I can now understand the restrictions on Legionaries' wargear - Hatred Eternal would be devastating on a unit with paired Special/Heavy weapons (either 32 shots from Reaper Chaincannons, 8 shots from Plasma Guns pus 2 Plasma Pistol shots, or 4 shots from Meltaguns or Lascannons all from a unit that can self-boost with Psychic Powers, Marks and Icons and brings along Objective Secured for good measure not to mention Legion bonuses and an absolute ton of melee attacks to stop them being bogged down by chaff for long) and, provided you can have a steady stream of Command Points, would mean taking stuff like Chosen, Terminators and even Havocs would be questionable.

Gifts of Chaos is unique in that it allows Chaos characters to have 2 relics (with some important restrictions) which can open up some powerhouse combos with the Legion Relic options and have some truly brutal characters. This is awkward with the Chapter Approved changes to initial Command Point availability and having to buy the Warlord Trait and initial Relic too, but at the same time that means this Stratagem isn't an auto-take in smaller games and/or if you want to have tactical options available in the opening turns and so keeps it balanced.

Trophies of the Long War brings back some options for unit champions that are otherwise lacking them - especially Terminator and Chosen Champions - though mileage will vary by Legion choice. A few of the available Relics don't replace weapons so can be taken by Possessed Champions. One that any Legion can take is of particular interest: taking Black Rune of Damnation on a Terminator unit, especially with Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle (then add in Legion traits and Stratagems that can make them even tougher too). A 10-man unit tricked out with gear (2 Reapers & Chainfists, 4 Combi-Melta & Power Fists, 2 Combi-Plasma & Accursed Weapons, 2 either standard or dual-Accursed) and these combos will be very expensive but incredibly deadly and durable whether walking up the board or using Warp Strike.

I am just excited about many of the units and combinations and different playstyles that all seem viable. It feels like a Chaos codex should once all of the different elements and interactions are taken into consideration. You can keep things cheap and efficient with optimised units and plenty of points for Stratagems, or really go to town and create a highly elite force of killing machines, and both seem like they will be viable on the tabletop.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Gothical

[Bulwyf]

Since someone has asked me for something positive to say about this codex I will say that while I hate it as a NL player it does seem fun for my EC army. Running around with my noise marines as troops was fun in 8th and it seems to be just as fun with this codex. Lucius the Eternal is FINALLY worth taking to games. I still brought him in my EC army but it was because the fluff of my EC army is that warband is Lucius's army that you saw in the BL novels. 

I do have a Land raider for that army and some predators and helbrutes. Plus a 10 man Possessed and 10 man warp talon squads. Should be fun to play around with.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Bulwyf

[danodan123]

6 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

I thought you can only ever gain 1 CP per phase per turn

Sorry to be anal with this, but I can't find the rules for this? Only rules about refunding or negating the cost of using a stratagem but not just simply gaining CP?

[Toldavf]

While it does suck that we are massively restricted in what we can take (I hope loyalist players are taking note they are next) our characters remain some of the most killy in game. That said we use so much cp pregame its not funny. I don't know what they where thinking with the nl trait all it does is make badly damaged squads easier to finish in melee and since night lords are about the 5th strongest melee legion from the book (In no particular order COB, WB, WE, RC and BL are all stronger imo) we have to play hybrid combined arms, and using our trait mean we might get some bonus casualties.

GW got allot wrong with the new book, but it is by no means unplayable it just plays completely different. 

1. Hoping that a big elite unit with black rune will win me some games.
2. Taking termy lords as they are the only lords worth taking now. 
3. Trying out the new vindicator/landraider.
4. Deamon weapons can hard carry against the right stuff.
5. AOC needs to go away.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Iron Father Ferrum
Bug in the formatting I think

[tychobi]

I was a excited about a possessed heavy list until I saw you cant give em a mark. What exactly is possessing them? Why does this shatter my immersion so badly? Leaves me a bit sad.  

[danodan123]

7 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

No problem friend, the fact I have legitimately no idea if it does or doesn’t and can’t think of where to find it is problem enough with this whole edition. I’m about 51% you only recoup 1 cp per phase per turn but that could absolutely be completely wrong. 

Ah okay fair enough, maybe someone else could confirm ? I mean, if its legal, totally broken anyway really! Especially in this chapter approved ! 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I've had a good read through of the book this weekend and I have to say that I'm overwhelming positive on this book.

More testing and play is needed but this book definitely feels like one of the more balanced they've released since GSC. That's not to say there aren't some absolute standout units (looking at you Abaddon, Possessed, MoP) but the internal balance is actually pretty damn good. Possessed would be an auto include if they could take marks and Icons (MoN Possessed+Cursed Earth laugh at your punny firepower) but they don't so there is legitimate thought needed to be put in for the tools you need.

My two armies are Iron Warriors and Red Corsairs and they now play very differently. With the AoC update to their trait, Strats to make vehicles tougher, infantry tougher, Cannon Fodder plus access to MoN on marines and termies makes Iron Warriors incredibly tough to shift. They also ignore Dense terrain which is such a big boost for a shooting focused army. On a side note, a Landraider with the Unholy Vigor Strat is only being wounded by Melta on 6s and Lascannons on 5s and no wounds can be rerolled against it. It's not going down anytime soon

Red Corsairs are the complete flip and are all about speed and get very large bonuses to bikes. Unless you account for it, Bikes will be in your lines turn 1, without fail. 18" Move+Advance, fire off a few melta shots then charge will really screw with opponent's plans and can even fall back after fighting. They have a really neat WLT that allows a Core unit to Move after firing. This is great for Havocs to keep them safe or for something else to sling shot further forward. If I've got it correctly, you could: Advance a unit up the board, cast Warptime to advance and move them again, then trigger this to normal move them again. With a unit of 10 marines, you can get on an enemy objective and count as 20 obsec models and pop the Secure the Prize strat for +1 Save vs dmg1 weapons. It won't work every game but it definitely might have play!

 

I'm very excited to get some game sunder my belt and see what I can do with the book. Death to the False Emperor!

[Gilbertus1]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:02 AM, nanosquid said:

Going back and reading more of the previous replies... what book are you people looking at??? The Night Lords complaints make me scratch my head the most. Nearly half of the major units you'd want with NL also have an additional -1LD aura on the datasheet, meaning you hit the 5 threshold on marines even before you start using spells, relics, and WLT. Is the tournament scene really such a hellscape? If so, why are you playing tournaments? Isn't the point of this hobby to have fun?

I was wondering this too, many of their traits are really nice. Turn off obsec and another to force a unit to fight last, what more was expected? A permanent 2++ save?

Raptors, Warp Talons, Possessed, Spawn, D Prince and the new Accursed Cultists have a 6" -1Ld aura 

So can easily give a -3 Ld debuff 

All it means is the NL player will need to include some of those units and ensure they are near or dual charging with units that don't debuff, (if fighting units where the -3 is needed).

[Gilbertus1]

9 hours ago, Toldavf said:

 I don't know what they where thinking with the nl trait all it does is make badly damaged squads easier to finish in melee and since night lords are about the 5th strongest melee legion from the book (In no particular order COB, WB, WE, RC and BL are all stronger imo) we have to play hybrid combined arms, and using our trait mean we might get some bonus casualties.

Incorrect. The NL trait also works with Ld5 units.

So units with Ld7 with the normal debuff or Ld8 units with that stacked with raptors, possessed etc.

This works two-fold allowing +1 to wound (really good with Warp Talons re-roll wounds), but also lowers the ld of the enemy to practically guarantee a failed test, which invokes the second part of their trait, for a 5+ or 4+ fail, which can be further buffed with one of their traits... To make 4+ fails (or 3+ with half a unit)... 

Delete a unit by making them run away! Its like attacks that auto kill on a dice roll.

Now to further augment this NL get the flayer sword that doubles casualties for attrition. 

 

Not to mention other cool relics.

Scourging Chains, extra AP for melee AND -1A for enemies in engagement (mini conniving plate, which TS player will attest is amazing)

Vox Demonicus stops enemies from deploying within 12" AND prevents them doing actions with a failed Ld test... Oh look it stacks with their trait and other units -1Ld auras... People are finiky about scoring points on a dice roll, now you can force that onto them with -2 or -3 to the test.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Gilbertus1

[Gothical]

I have a quick question, more of a rules one really but fits with what people have been saying about Night Lords, and also goes for Possessed and Raptors:

The way the various -Ld rules are worded are "Whilst within X of this unit..." - so does it not stack with multiple units? So 2x5-man Night Lords impose -4 to Leadership? My previous experience with such rules has always been written "Whilst within X of a unit with this ability" or "Whilst within X of any unit with this ability" or "one or more units with this ability" etc, which explicitly prevented the effects from stacking.

Is there a core book rule/FAQ I am missing that addresses this?

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 hours ago, danodan123 said:

Ah okay fair enough, maybe someone else could confirm ? I mean, if its legal, totally broken anyway really! Especially in this chapter approved ! 

Page 245 of the core rulebook. Under the advanced rules tab for Gaining and Refunding Command Points. First bullet point says cannot gain or refund more than 1 CP per battleround. *excluding the one from the command phase, that's another bullet point*

Between a massive core rulebook, individual codexes and supplements, FAQ and erratas, balance slates, chapter approveds, campaign and crusade books and white dwarf articles, it gets to be a bit much. I'm hoping for a more digital friendly future haha.

[Gilbertus1]

32 minutes ago, Gothical said:

I have a quick question, more of a rules one really but fits with what people have been saying about Night Lords, and also goes for Possessed and Raptors:

The way the various -Ld rules are worded are "Whilst within X of this unit..." - so does it not stack with multiple units? So 2x5-man Night Lords impose -4 to Leadership? My previous experience with such rules has always been written "Whilst within X of a unit with this ability" or "Whilst within X of any unit with this ability" or "one or more units with this ability" etc, which explicitly prevented the effects from stacking.

Is there a core book rule/FAQ I am missing that addresses this?

I was wondering that too.

I don't have the book yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

I assume the -1 aura doesn't stack with itself as they are the same named ability, whereas the NL trait is different and so can stack with the -1.

Same with the NL trait, can't stack with itself othwrwise you'd make units Ld 0 very easily which is truely broken

Edited July 4, 2022 by Gilbertus1

[TrawlingCleaner]

28 minutes ago, Gothical said:

I have a quick question, more of a rules one really but fits with what people have been saying about Night Lords, and also goes for Possessed and Raptors:

The way the various -Ld rules are worded are "Whilst within X of this unit..." - so does it not stack with multiple units? So 2x5-man Night Lords impose -4 to Leadership? My previous experience with such rules has always been written "Whilst within X of a unit with this ability" or "Whilst within X of any unit with this ability" or "one or more units with this ability" etc, which explicitly prevented the effects from stacking.

Is there a core book rule/FAQ I am missing that addresses this?

As I understand it: No the -1LD Aura from Possessed etc, does not stack with itself but it will stack with other -LD Auras. If the Ability/Aura has the same name it cannot effect a unit more than once (eg, an Aura that gives units +1 to Wound would not stack with the same Aura) unless it specifically states otherwise like the old Night Lords Legion Trait. You could have a unit of Possessed, Warp Talons and a Daemon prince and it would be at most -3LD. -2LD for the Trait and -1LD for Daemonkin

 

[Gothical]

22 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

If the Ability/Aura has the same name it cannot effect a unit more than once

I thought I had to be missing something like that, a pity. -3 is the most you can get from unit combinations then. 

The Leadership/Combat Attrition abilities are still quite valuable though:

Lord of Terror Warlord Trait helps with actual Morale checks especially against units with their Ld reduced to only 7/6.

Flayer relic, One Piece At A Time warlord trait and Flay Them Alive stratagem help to melt units that lose combat no matter how tough they might otherwise be.

Terrifying Phenomena Stratagem can shut down the auto-pass stratagem and re-roll abilities to allow Night Lords units to use the aforementioned abilities to the full.

I think they will be better than a lot of the initial pessimism I am seeing has them, these are just the Ld/Morale/CA based things, there are some very nice Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics available to them as well.