How are people adapting to the massive changes?

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 hours ago, danodan123 said:

Ah okay fair enough, maybe someone else could confirm ? I mean, if its legal, totally broken anyway really! Especially in this chapter approved ! 

Page 245 of the core rulebook. Under the advanced rules tab for Gaining and Refunding Command Points. First bullet point says cannot gain or refund more than 1 CP per battleround. *excluding the one from the command phase, that's another bullet point*

Between a massive core rulebook, individual codexes and supplements, FAQ and erratas, balance slates, chapter approveds, campaign and crusade books and white dwarf articles, it gets to be a bit much. I'm hoping for a more digital friendly future haha.

[Gilbertus1]

32 minutes ago, Gothical said:

I have a quick question, more of a rules one really but fits with what people have been saying about Night Lords, and also goes for Possessed and Raptors:

The way the various -Ld rules are worded are "Whilst within X of this unit..." - so does it not stack with multiple units? So 2x5-man Night Lords impose -4 to Leadership? My previous experience with such rules has always been written "Whilst within X of a unit with this ability" or "Whilst within X of any unit with this ability" or "one or more units with this ability" etc, which explicitly prevented the effects from stacking.

Is there a core book rule/FAQ I am missing that addresses this?

I was wondering that too.

I don't have the book yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

I assume the -1 aura doesn't stack with itself as they are the same named ability, whereas the NL trait is different and so can stack with the -1.

Same with the NL trait, can't stack with itself othwrwise you'd make units Ld 0 very easily which is truely broken

Edited July 4, 2022 by Gilbertus1

[TrawlingCleaner]

28 minutes ago, Gothical said:

I have a quick question, more of a rules one really but fits with what people have been saying about Night Lords, and also goes for Possessed and Raptors:

The way the various -Ld rules are worded are "Whilst within X of this unit..." - so does it not stack with multiple units? So 2x5-man Night Lords impose -4 to Leadership? My previous experience with such rules has always been written "Whilst within X of a unit with this ability" or "Whilst within X of any unit with this ability" or "one or more units with this ability" etc, which explicitly prevented the effects from stacking.

Is there a core book rule/FAQ I am missing that addresses this?

As I understand it: No the -1LD Aura from Possessed etc, does not stack with itself but it will stack with other -LD Auras. If the Ability/Aura has the same name it cannot effect a unit more than once (eg, an Aura that gives units +1 to Wound would not stack with the same Aura) unless it specifically states otherwise like the old Night Lords Legion Trait. You could have a unit of Possessed, Warp Talons and a Daemon prince and it would be at most -3LD. -2LD for the Trait and -1LD for Daemonkin

 

[Gothical]

22 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

If the Ability/Aura has the same name it cannot effect a unit more than once

I thought I had to be missing something like that, a pity. -3 is the most you can get from unit combinations then. 

The Leadership/Combat Attrition abilities are still quite valuable though:

Lord of Terror Warlord Trait helps with actual Morale checks especially against units with their Ld reduced to only 7/6.

Flayer relic, One Piece At A Time warlord trait and Flay Them Alive stratagem help to melt units that lose combat no matter how tough they might otherwise be.

Terrifying Phenomena Stratagem can shut down the auto-pass stratagem and re-roll abilities to allow Night Lords units to use the aforementioned abilities to the full.

I think they will be better than a lot of the initial pessimism I am seeing has them, these are just the Ld/Morale/CA based things, there are some very nice Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics available to them as well.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

From the reviews I’ve seen so far vs. the complaints in this thread I’m pretty settled on the issue being “things are now different, now” and not “things are worse, now.”

The loss of JP for characters is my biggest gripe.. that was a pretty unnecessary move but GW and it sucks from the modeling and game play perspective for so many CSM collectors.

I’m completely in disagreement with most here who some how think the loss of “ customization” is a bad thing. Unlike previous editions your models are not completely invalidated because of the war gear ( unless you made a squad of 10xcombi-meltas, etc). Accursed weapons makes things easier for the unit and game play overall and falls in line with the “stream lined” nature that is current 40k. If you’re a fan of 8th/9th vs the previous editions then I’m not sure why there’s so much opposition to the changes. You can’t tell me the units are definitively worse.. they are just different. 
 

I’m pretty excited for this book for my own collections Abaddon is a freaking monster and the Word Bearers finally have something that feels promising as opposed to a lack luster gimmick.. and standard Chaos Space Marines are also finally worth taking/functional! There’s a lot of awesome stuff to be excited about. 

[techsoldaten]

2 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I’m completely in disagreement with most here who some how think the loss of “ customization” is a bad thing. Unlike previous editions your models are not completely invalidated because of the war gear ( unless you made a squad of 10xcombi-meltas, etc). Accursed weapons makes things easier for the unit and game play overall and falls in line with the “stream lined” nature that is current 40k. If you’re a fan of 8th/9th vs the previous editions then I’m not sure why there’s so much opposition to the changes. You can’t tell me the units are definitively worse.. they are just different. 

I’m pretty excited for this book for my own collections Abaddon is a freaking monster and the Word Bearers finally have something that feels promising as opposed to a lack luster gimmick.. and standard Chaos Space Marines are also finally worth taking/functional! There’s a lot of awesome stuff to be excited about. 

While I understand your disagreement about the loss of customization as a bad thing, might not be fair to lump all complaints into one bucket. Losing 4x special weapons on Chosen is not the same as losing Lightning Claws on Terminators (which was a fairly popular load out.) Part of the reason people are complaining is financial, having a unit invalidated never gives you a warm feeling.

Just finished my second game with the new Codex. In addition to being a freaking monster, Abaddon is a bodacious bullet magnet. His damage cap seems to be a blessing and a curse, instead of pouring all their shots into him the opponents I faced knew when to stop. He went down the third turn this time without getting into combat. The Terminators he dropped in with managed to score a few wounds against Aggressors before going down themselves.

It takes me a few games to settle on a list, and I'm committed to making CSM work. So far, not seeing much of an improvement over 8th edition relative to where we were in the meta. The extra wounds are nice, but there's so much d2 shooting... 

[BrainFireBob]

4 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

From the reviews I’ve seen so far vs. the complaints in this thread I’m pretty settled on the issue being “things are now different, now” and not “things are worse, now.”

The loss of JP for characters is my biggest gripe.. that was a pretty unnecessary move but GW and it sucks from the modeling and game play perspective for so many CSM collectors.

I’m completely in disagreement with most here who some how think the loss of “ customization” is a bad thing. Unlike previous editions your models are not completely invalidated because of the war gear ( unless you made a squad of 10xcombi-meltas, etc). Accursed weapons makes things easier for the unit and game play overall and falls in line with the “stream lined” nature that is current 40k. If you’re a fan of 8th/9th vs the previous editions then I’m not sure why there’s so much opposition to the changes. You can’t tell me the units are definitively worse.. they are just different. 
 

I’m pretty excited for this book for my own collections Abaddon is a freaking monster and the Word Bearers finally have something that feels promising as opposed to a lack luster gimmick.. and standard Chaos Space Marines are also finally worth taking/functional! There’s a lot of awesome stuff to be excited about. 

Your "unless" handwaives the actual problem. "Aside from the real problem, it's just griping."

 

No matching dual specials/heavies in troops. Did you notice? Dual melta is dead. Dual plasma is dead. The balefire tome, Marks, icons, heavy chainaxe- they add up fast. Sure, you can build an excellent troops choice- for an elite price tag. Loss of termie shooting, which came with DS capability, eliminates one of the best dedicated shooting units. Loss of dual l. Claws is the same.

 

Loss of mobility on lords is loss of engagement/board control.

 

CSM looks nice, but between points costs, removal of flexible options giving the army a playstyle that can be predicted based on unit selection, and the Nephilim CP restriction- I think it's competitively in the same place. Put up a show fight but lose. Hope I'm wrong. Have some things I'm excited to try.  

 

If not for Nephilim, story might be different. Too many good things are strat linked or pregame CP linked. 

[BrainFireBob]

Once SMs lose HQ mobility, things will also change. Or if they complete the slow walk to powerlevel, which makes weapon upgrades, the Tome upgrade, etc functionally free. 

Going to run Haarken and raptors. Going to try BL termies with a Termie sorc with the armor relic for redeploy shenanigans. Going to try Abaddon and Havocs.

Going to raptor horde my NL with my claws DP. Going to try my IW LRs again. 

But, while I'm not Bulwyf, I think things are different instead of better.

 

Edit: There may be a power WB list. Not my legion, but wow did they get a glowup

Edited July 4, 2022 by BrainFireBob
Followup thought

[MadEdric]

I’m finding I like the changes, but truth be, didn’t find a lot of negative things, but that could be my play style. 

In my World Eaters list, Bezerkers changed the most, mainly no longer getting to use my combi weapon and powerfist champions. Losing a chunk of my melta shots means I need to look into other armor busters, including the aforementioned powerfist. I’ll adapt though. I like the default chain weapon, I see it as a side grade, pretty much like a chainaxe and chainsword build, but you get a pistol as well.

I’ll also get to put less combi meltas in the Butchers, but can still bring my chainfist Champion. They were all armed with power axes, so going to accursed weapons is also a side grade.

One combo I want to try is kitting out my Warpsmith with the Gorget of Eternal Hate and Flames of Spite. Giving him a 4++ and the +1 armor save, with rerolls on wounds, 6’s giving MWs. Hard to kill and dangerous in combat. This was always how I wanted to play Daedalus, striding forward with his infernal engines, as much a danger as they are.

Edited July 4, 2022 by MadEdric

[Bulwyf]

2 hours ago, BrainFireBob said:

Once SMs lose HQ mobility, things will also change. Or if they complete the slow walk to powerlevel, which makes weapon upgrades, the Tome upgrade, etc functionally free. 

Going to run Haarken and raptors. Going to try BL termies with a Termie sorc with the armor relic for redeploy shenanigans. Going to try Abaddon and Havocs.

Going to raptor horde my NL with my claws DP. Going to try my IW LRs again. 

But, while I'm not Bulwyf, I think things are different instead of better.

 

Edit: There may be a power WB list. Not my legion, but wow did they get a glowup

 have played 40k since Rogue Trader came out. I have never played anyone that plays NL besides myself. Their rules are tied to a mechanic that never really works in 40k. This book has bad WL traits and relics on top of bad army rules. At least the leaked NL rules had the promise of being good. But that's not what we actually got. Where did that guy go btw? I'm curious if he's as gung ho about playing NL now as he was when we thought we were getting decent army rules for once.

I'm trying to remember any time in 9th  that a NL army won a GT or even placed. I don't know why people are so resistant to saying something is just bad when it is objectively bad. It does not mean other armies in CSM can't be fun or have good rules or whatever else. But looking at this book as an experienced player both NL and AL are just...bad. And for NL that's been every CSM book I can remember where they were just bad.  

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Bulwyf

[Gilbertus1]

1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

 have played 40k since Rogue Trader came out. I have never played anyone that plays NL besides myself. Their rules are tied to a mechanic that never really works in 40k. This book has bad WL traits and relics on top of bad army rules. 

 But looking at this book as an experienced player both NL and AL are just...bad. And for NL that's been every CSM book I can remember where they were just bad.  

.... NL have really really good traits and relics.

Not sure what you are whinging about.

[Bulwyf]

1 hour ago, Gilbertus1 said:

.... NL have really really good traits and relics.

Not sure what you are whinging about.

No, they do not. If you disagree that's fine. Calling valid criticism "whinging" is a little childish.

Here's a real question for you: Do you actually play NL? If not then your opinion carries very little weight if any to actual NL players. No offense but I've heard this same sad refrain of "oh, they aren't that bad....even though they never place, never win and no one I know even plays them" from non NL players for decades. 

 

[Brom MKIV]

Long time since I posted around these parts. XX Legion player primarily although I dabble in several legions including NL. 

While I can see potential in the new rules I am incredibly upset about many of the changes which will shelve literally 80 percent of my alpha legion. I want to give the book a shot but I can't. I can't get past it. My units of converted cbplas chosen, all my terminators, some of my berserkers and nearly all my characters, and to an extent my cultists and there's more.

In addition and just as impactful, these seemingly small changes have completely changed the dynamic of my army so that I cannot play the style I enjoy. I feel we are now shoehorned into a rush at you style.

And while the models potentially gained durability this comes with cost so any army I could field would be much smaller.

So smaller, more linear, less ranged presence, less board control and so on. 

I will say I like the art and the new models I've seen. There are some nice things in the book and that almost makes it more frustrating to me. I DO want some of those things, by they don't outweigh what was removed. 

I also see some improvements and this Includes some of the relics and WLTs although other favorites have been nerfed or removed. But viewing these as a straight plus is ignoring the reduced starting cp and the increased cost to include even the first WLT and relic. 

I personally enjoyed the previous legions rules and had success. And spent quite a lot of money and time. To get this level of invalidation of my investment is a slap in my face. 

Been playing since 4th sorry but I agree with the sentiment on NL and AL. And generally any list not predicated on Abaddon. 

On point.. how I'm adapting?

I'm not. I'll wait until I get rules I can personally enjoy that respect my collection. In the mean time I'll play the previous rules or play a different army depending on my opponent and the event. If magically GW decides to put combi weapons and jump packs back in order and opens up the war gear on HQs I will revisit this statement.

[BrainFireBob]

I have a NL force, but not my primary. I think they're not as bad straight out as all that- it's the +Nephilim that's the problem. More CP for strats and traits for NL. But they're at best OK as-is, I think. Not Imp Fist bad, but Raven Guard level at best. 

Really struggling with HQs. My biker lord- gone. JP lord- gone. JP sorc- gone. My Daemon Prince- fairly new- is apparently my primary. Not sure what I want to do for my second. 

My primary Chaos is IW. They're in a better place, as is my BL. And the WB players have to be suffering from giddy spells and whiplash. 

Maybe a Dreadclaw, MoK Tac squad, Exalted Champ or MoE to strike at opponents objectives. Play mobile. Or a bunch of tome+chaincannon 5 man squads. Certainly not fielding my contemptor with the Martial Legacy tax. 

[Gilbertus1]

6 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

No, they do not. If you disagree that's fine. Calling valid criticism "whinging" is a little childish.

Here's a real question for you: Do you actually play NL? If not then your opinion carries very little weight if any to actual NL players. No offense but I've heard this same sad refrain of "oh, they aren't that bad....even though they never place, never win and no one I know even plays them" from non NL players for decades. 

 

Mate, what "valid criticism"? All you did was whinge and claim NL traits and relics are bad... with zero explanation or reasoning, if that isnt whinging then I don't know what is.

In a previous post I went through some of their relics and traits and how they are (in fact) really good.

OPAAT: An additional -1 to combat attrition and consolidate any direction, (so you don't get hit back at all if you charged, like thydergyhr of TS)

Murderous Reputation: Cancel obsec. Good  very good.

Dirty Fighter: Forces an enemy to strike last. SM have to buy an elite character for this. So this helps with points efficiency.

Killing Fury: +D3 attacks and makes you have exploding 6s. Nice for a DP with killy attacks.

 

Claw of S Count: S+2 AP-3 D2 +2A and ignores "ignore wound" rules. Can be taken on a DP to get super malefic talons, or use on termies or whatever.

Vox Demonicus: Stops reserves from within 12" AND forces units to do a Ld test to do an action. People are finicy about doing action on dice rolls, now you can force it on them, and with -2 or -3 to the test. And you can give this to the new cultist HQ who is going to sit behind everything (look out sir) and spit out psychic, and blessings

Scourging Chains: Extra AP in combat AND mini conniving plate... A damage and defense buff in one, economical and handy

Flayer: S+2 AP-3 D2 casualties are double for attrition. To guarantee you win the combat by a huge margin and force practically an auto-fail. Put this with OPAAT and you have a guy that can charge in, cause an auto fail and consolidates away so he doesn't get hit back.

 

Your argument is laughable, any player can read a book and see the strengths of an army whether they play the army or not... Or do you also think only doctors who've had cancer can comment on cancer, (same "logic" buddy).

I'm a new Chaos player, (but have played since 4th), and I heard on the internet previously that chaos players like to complain, it seems you are demonstrating this trope to me.

Disagree if you like, but at least be intellectually honest and provide some kind of reasoning... Not just, 'this is bad' and think that such opinions are evidence.

[DesuVult]

I strongly disagree that the book has good internal balance as so many people are saying.  There is an insane amount of overlap in rules with different ways to do the same thing with there often being a clear winning.  Just look at the HQ options.  You want an MoP almost no matter what else is in your list and the daemon prince stands head and shoulders over almost everything in the codex.  The exalted champion exists.  There is an absurd number of +1 to hit rules and there are 3 different stratagems for rerolling against loyalist marines, 2 are chapter specific.

[Closet Skeleton]

8 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

No, they do not. If you disagree that's fine. Calling valid criticism "whinging" is a little childish.

Here's a real question for you: Do you actually play NL? If not then your opinion carries very little weight if any to actual NL players. No offense but I've heard this same sad refrain of "oh, they aren't that bad....even though they never place, never win and no one I know even plays them" from non NL players for decades. 

 

Tyranids and Craftworlds are currently the best tournament armies and have plenty of subfactions that never win events either so you really have no reason to expect any random chaos legion to be any different. Its just basic logic that there are a lot of factions in this game and expecting subfactions to be evenly balanced for top level play is impossible when even the 3rd best subfactions are getting passed over at that level. Thinking NL have a right to be top tier over entire Xenos races is pure Marine bias.

Frontline Gaming have a ranking for Night Lords tournament players and the top one has come third in an event.

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/bcpplayers?league=Lzxmm0QiaI&faction=KAC2GmHBSk&embed=true

They're definitely an overly fluffy jobber faction who are sub par vs Space Marine's And they Shall no no Fear and the Deathguard and Black Legion variants but when their morale ability does work its stupidly powerful now where you can just kill 1 guardsmen and then the rest of the squad will die on 2/3 chance.

They're total garbage against Knights and Custodes but that's the 'pick on the weak' faction for you. With Raptors and the Walord trait on the Lord you can get +1 to wound against Knights which is very powerful, otherwise Raptors and Possessed are smashing most non-Necron vehicles to pieces and poor Guard and Ork vehicles are in real trouble against any unit. Non-synapse Tyranids are also very weak to NL.

Losing the charge bonuses suck but those weren't that fluffy anyway since NL aren't Ravenguard and are supposed to favour bikes as much as jump packs. Deep strike charge is pretty much a trap compared to just being on the board and fast with current 9th ed tournament terrain set ups.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Gilbertus1]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

I strongly disagree that the book has good internal balance as so many people are saying.  There is an insane amount of overlap in rules with different ways to do the same thing with there often being a clear winning.  Just look at the HQ options.  You want an MoP almost no matter what else is in your list and the daemon prince stands head and shoulders over almost everything in the codex.  The exalted champion exists.  There is an absurd number of +1 to hit rules and there are 3 different stratagems for rerolling against loyalist marines, 2 are chapter specific.

Personally I think redundancy is a good thing. Having multiple ways to do something is good for when you lose one of them.

For example, Word Bearers give you reroll hits in combat, but so does the basic prayer. No worries, this redundancy means you can now use a different prayer instead.

Or maybe you don't want to play Word Bearers but do want a reroll hits in combat for a nasty unit, no problem just get a dude to do that basic blessing.

It means you aren't necessarily forced into a particular sub-faction or HQ choice as there are multiple ways to get what you want.... except for rezing models :(

 

Not sure what the complaint is about the rerolls against marine strats is.

I think the faction specific ones are a bit better (due to being specific) also it means two units can potentially benefit instead of just choosing one.

[DesuVult]

3 hours ago, Gilbertus1 said:

redundancy

There are over 15 rules granting +1 to hit.

[Khornestar]

++ Folks, this thread is all over the place. We really don't need a griping thread. I don't begrudge anyone their negative feelings toward the codex, but we don't need a thread for it.

I will leave it open until midnight this Sunday, July 10, at which point it will be locked.

This decision is not open for debate, so please make the best of this thread until that time. ++

[Gilbertus1]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

There are over 15 rules granting +1 to hit.

And?

Are they all the same or are they different?... Similar effects in different situations with different triggers arfecting different units.

I really don't understand what you are complaining about. 

So Chaos marines have rules and they do stuff... some of these rules are similar... but they work in different situations.... And? What is the actual problem here?

I could understand a complaint like...

'This rule makes no sense or is ambiguous'

'This rule doesn't work within the core ruleset'

But complaining about having "too much" +1 to hit? Would you rather not have any +1 to hit?

The only people who should complain about this is Alpha Legion since it kinda invalidates their trait (though it does makes woods useful for us).

 

[Cel_Morgaris]

4 hours ago, Khornestar said:

++ Folks, this thread is all over the place. We really don't need a griping thread. I don't begrudge anyone their negative feelings toward the codex, but we don't need a thread for it.

I will leave it open until midnight this Sunday, July 10, at which point it will be locked.

This decision is not open for debate, so please make the best of this thread until that time. ++

This is just crazy, no one is breaking forum rules, you just feel the need to lock it down for some reason.

Pretty sure I wasn`t only one interested in learning from different peoples persepectives here.

This is not what I signed up for. I`ll try to find another forum with less busybody mods I guess, thanks.

[Prot]

2 hours ago, Cel_Morgaris said:

This is just crazy, no one is breaking forum rules, you just feel the need to lock it down for some reason.

Pretty sure I wasn`t only one interested in learning from different peoples persepectives here.

This is not what I signed up for. I`ll try to find another forum with less busybody mods I guess, thanks.

When a thread starts to break down into arguing back and forth on what army sucks, and what army is great…. That isn’t the topic here. Eventually when a few people break the thread down into a back and forth, repetitive argument, no one wins and the thread loses validity. 
 

While no one is directly violating rules, no one is being cited for doing so. The point is we prefer to see a thread go in it’s intended direction, rather than split off into off topic debates. Anyone can start a topic of their own, debating the merits of Legion X. But let’s try to keep this one from getting stuck on why the codex is bad, or my legion sucks. 
 

Please and thank you. 

[Brom MKIV]

@prot so is there a thread to vent about the book? A collection of valid complaints can be constructive as I suspect GW can read. Hell they probably have accounts here. If they pay sites to give positive reviews why not joining a forum too?

 

[Bulwyf]

11 minutes ago, Brom MKIV said:

@prot so is there a thread to vent about the book? A collection of valid complaints can be constructive as I suspect GW can read. Hell they probably have accounts here. If they pay sites to give positive reviews why not joining a forum too?

 

I think that thread would last about a nanosecond before it was locked. I would like to be proven wrong. 

As the mods have now specifically asked us to NOT go into a back and forth about the legions then the poster above who doesn't play Night Lords but was arguing with me an actual Night Lords player about them will have to do without my back or forth about it. I said my piece. He said his. There's no need to get mods to put their mod hats on over it.