Advice needed Are any of you limiting dreads?

[SmorcInc]

My playgroup is loving the edition so far with the exception of Dreads. We're currently axing leviathans entirely and limiting contemptors because of their durability and damage.

 

Are we overreacting? Does anyone have advice for how to deal with these things without skewing too hard? Especially in SoH and IH.

Followup, anyone think of a way to beat the all dreads rite of war? Best method I've thought of is running around with the faster primarchs and killing them asap.

[Dagoth Ur]

No, I'm not. People around here have lovingly converted and painted these miniatures and deserve to be able to play with them. I'd never agree to an in-group ban on any unit. The only time we did that was in the Taudar days of 7th Ed. Sure, they're pretty strong right now but nothing I'd consider horrifically broken.

[bushman101]

I don't know if anyone in my group has overly invested in dreads.

I'm pretty sure I have the most dreads in our group ( 2 Contemptor,  2 Incaendius, 1 Leviathan) but I have yet to put them all on the table at once

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea they're strong, but open to every faction. As are their counters.

Like las HSS squads can burn them (and everything else) down pretty fast. Grav weaponry is highly effective. Dedicated melta bomb/thunderhammer units. Even dedicated AT predator squadrons.

Tey might be individually more expensive than the dreads, but if you can kill them down before they're a problem, it's a bit of a moot point imo 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

50 minutes ago, SmorcInc said:

My playgroup is loving the edition so far with the exception of Dreads. We're currently axing leviathans entirely and limiting contemptors because of their durability and damage.

 

Are we overreacting? Does anyone have advice for how to deal with these things without skewing too hard? Especially in SoH and IH.

Followup, anyone think of a way to beat the all dreads rite of war? Best method I've thought of is running around with the faster primarchs and killing them asap.

I think an out right ban is very knee jerk. 30k has access to so many options and abilities there's a huge difference between 3-6 and 9-12 dread options in a list. Contemptors are strong, as are leviathan and deredos. But that's not the end all be all to any list. 30k is about telling stories. Most HH events are going to look down on WAAC players. That's the general consensus out there.

If you want to play dreads, play them, if you don't, you dont have to. As far as counters, your own dreads and heavy tanks do a lot of damage at range to  opposing dreads, you have cataphractii terminators with fists and 4++ you have primarchs and the missions also.

[Trixie]

Of all the problems with this game, dreadnoughts being good isn't one of them.

 

I can't imagine forcibly limiting any unit, it feels more of a 40k solution to 40k problems. As this community is generally pretty good at self policing itself in terms of power lists I have never heard of groups needing to outright restrict or ban a unit.

[SmorcInc]

Anyone have advice for dealing with them? What I personally have (excluding running your own) is as follows.

1. About 10 to 20ish lascannons, neutrons or meltas, split up on a few units so they can't be wiped so easily.

2. Sacrifice low wound count, high body count units with morale boosters to them in melee to try and eat up turns.

3. Ignore them and try to win faster than they kill ya.

 

Anything else I can tell my group?

[Trixie]

Aye lascannons are great this edition, even better than before yet somehow generally cheaper. I'd suggest throwing them onto as many sponsons as you can if you are having trouble with enemy dreadnoughts.

Whilst dreads are certainly more resilient now Lascannon shots are going to whittle them down. Haywire is another excellent tool for messing them up, and it provides great utility outside of dread hunting as well.

[arnesh88]

I think banning them outright is too restrictive. There needs to be some level of trust with other players before a game begins.

Your most common options are either ranged anti-tank weapons (lascannons), or get up close. Melta bombs have instant death, outright killing a dread if it gets through. Sergeants of most squads can take them. Destroyer Squads, Recon Squads, and Scout squads can up to 1 per model. Anything with murderous strike also has a chance of outright killing them. Finally, thunder hammers have brutal (2) making it more likely to wound them.

They're tough, but we got to wait and see how things play out. And as others have pointed out, players in HH tend to lean more narrative than competitive

[SkimaskMohawk]

Every dreadnought has a special rule that prevents instant death from removing them, and doing a set of wound Winstead. Contemptors take d3, box dreads take 3.

So no, melta bombs don't outright kill a dread.

[arnesh88]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Every dreadnought has a special rule that prevents instant death from removing them, and doing a set of wound Winstead. Contemptors take d3, box dreads take 3.

So no, melta bombs don't outright kill a dread.

Page reference and book? I looked at the Dreadnought sub-type and the Contemptor and Leviathan rules, and not finding that exception… I’m genuinely curious to make sure I’m playing and strategizing right.

[Loquille]

22 minutes ago, arnesh88 said:

Page reference and book? I looked at the Dreadnought sub-type and the Contemptor and Leviathan rules, and not finding that exception… I’m genuinely curious to make sure I’m playing and strategizing right.

Atomantic Deflector rules on page 140. of the Liber books ( I don't think they're different page numbers between the two) 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Loquille

[arnesh88]

17 hours ago, Loquille said:

Atomantic Deflector rules on page 140. of the Liber books ( I don't think they're different page numbers between the two) 

 

Yep, there it is. Thanks for pointing it out

[Mandragola]

Dreadnoughts are a kind of core unit to 30/40k and it's good that they're good. I don't know if they're too good but so far I don't think so.

There is a little bit of rock/paper/scissors going on with 20-man tactical squads, dreadnoughts and other stuff. Those tactical squads are pretty great now, especially if they have apothecaries and use the return fire reaction. It's pretty tough for lots of elite units to engage them and not lose more points than they kill. But Contemptors don't really care about bolter fire and can smash tacticals to pieces. In return, those elite units tend to be good vs contemptors.

I don't think the ravenguard army I'm building is especially scared of Dreadnoughts. I've got a lot of rending stuff that ought to put them down relatively easily, especially with Corax in the mix. We'll have to see how that works in practice though.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

8 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Dreadnoughts are a kind of core unit to 30/40k and it's good that they're good. I don't know if they're too good but so far I don't think so.

There is a little bit of rock/paper/scissors going on with 20-man tactical squads, dreadnoughts and other stuff. Those tactical squads are pretty great now, especially if they have apothecaries and use the return fire reaction. It's pretty tough for lots of elite units to engage them and not lose more points than they kill. But Contemptors don't really care about bolter fire and can smash tacticals to pieces. In return, those elite units tend to be good vs contemptors.

I don't think the ravenguard army I'm building is especially scared of Dreadnoughts. I've got a lot of rending stuff that ought to put them down relatively easily, especially with Corax in the mix. We'll have to see how that works in practice though.

What makes Dreadnoughts good is T8. 2+ 5++ so it negates all of your legion tactical bolters. So if they have nothing else to shoot at they can't do any damage to it. Then it's also WS 5 so if you charge the unit with tacticals even with bayonets or chain bayonets you aren't causing enough wounds except with the chance of a melta bomb or power fist.

And then he's got a 5++ and multiple wounds. Obviously you should have outs to a couple. But when the entire army is the same model or better and is scoring that army is a tough nut to crack. Ergo 3-6 I'm probably okay with. 9-12 I'd play it but I wouldn't play it a second time.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well mass tacticals are actually terrible, and aren't very hard to engage for elite units. They average 2 dead terminators/elite 2+ armour model from a full fury of the legion/double reaction.

Dreadnoughts are good because they can plow through those elite units with ease and soak up a ton of quality fire power. Though they're also not t8 with the exception of the leviathan. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

13 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Well mass tacticals are actually terrible, and aren't very hard to engage for elite units. They average 2 dead terminators/elite 2+ armour model from a full fury of the legion/double reaction.

Dreadnoughts are good because they can plow through those elite units with ease and soak up a ton of quality fire power. Though they're also not t8 with the exception of the leviathan. 

Oh sorry typing from my phone. Hadn't realized I typed 8 instead of 7. 

[Mandragola]

It'll be interesting to see how all of this shakes out. I agree that taking these 2+/5++ T7 wounds off won't be easy but there is stuff, like Primarchs and rending, that goes straight through them. It would be a bit rubbish to face 12, I definitely agree. Only six of those would be Line, but that's actually quite a lot of Line stuff and there's nothing stopping you also taking infantry.

Out of interest, do people think that breaching always wounds if it rolls the required breaching number? I think it probably doesn't. Rending says that it wounds automatically if you get that number but breaching doesn't.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Idk why people would think breaching (or murderous strike) auto wounds on the value if they read the rules. As you say, rending includes that as a component while the others...don't.

[Lord Krungharr]

Angron could probably kill like 2-3 Contemptors in a later round in a game.  If no Angron, higher initiative things with Murderous Strike and AP2 are good for melee.  For shooting, Las and Melta, maybe a good ram forcing a Death or Glory?!?!?

[Marshal Mittens]

Lascannons, melta of any sort, and power fists seem like good options, as do thunder hammers. Grav to slow them down. 

Dedicated ranged dreads, well, ranged contemptors don't seem like a massive issue, only hordes of melee ones seem hard to deal with.

 

Probably not playing with people who bring like 9-12 dreads is an option too. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've watched a few videos on the state of 40k lately versus what 30k is and what it might be.

The problem is going to come down to how popular 30k becomes, and at what point do the competitive 40k players invade 30k and bastardize it into taking lists that run the best units for a competitive edge instead of telling a story.

While many of the current 30k players are keen to self regulation, there is about to be a new wave of individuals that swell the ranks of the 30k environment and will undoubtedly bring the cultivated nuances of 40k. Reddit is a good source of seeing people trying to squeeze blood from stone to get the most busted, gamey tactica in order to have some advantage etc.

That being said I think in larger scaled games I still don't have a problem playing against this RoW. Eventually knights are going to be common place again as the Fallen Houses and Loyalist via for attention within the books. Yes 90% of games will still be astartes vs astartes, but I have had House Vyronii since it's inception of knights, and plan to field them at some point. So then if my opponent wants to take 9-12 dreads it becomes no different than my 5-6 super heavies.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, let's say the 40k competitive meta and mentality is fully transplanted.

Youll have people running fury of the ancients and spamming dreads left and right, probably with iron hands or space wolves to really squeeze as much value as possible, and they'll dominate the meta. Until, grav spam lists start showing up. 15 Proteus with double grav, 2 blobs of breachers with 4 grav and 3 full HSS  with lascannons is enough to put any dread list into the ground, no questions asked, with very little counter play on the dread players side. You might be thinking that it's an awful lot of money to invest, but this is the 40k tournament scene we're talking about; they spend the money to win the tournaments.

I'd worry more about the guy at the local club the cobbled together a BaC contemptor list in all its grey plastic glory than the tournament scene. 

Knights are a great analogue. They've been anti-fun since their introduction and create incredibly one sided games either way, but they're still a part of the game, and something you might have to face from time to time. 

[Noserenda]

I think people need to remember that 30k being a "narrative game" is just a bit of a mirage/local phenomenon caused by the game being largely abandoned for a few years. There have been competitive 30k players longer than forgeworld has been supporting the game, its not really my thing, but to deny it exists is inane, that and 40k players are exactly the same mix of types, theres just a lot more of them.

Id also say most of the people who already happen to own a dozen dreadnoughts arent particularly competitive, in 1st edition it was arguably the least competitive RoW :D 

It is a good point about the meta shifting once they fully release the game, Mechanicum and Knights especially are probably going to beat a Dread horde at their own game and ill bet Custodes wont struggle with them either. They are a significant number of players too, i remember a Throne of Skulls event when my Iron warriors faced Mechanicum in literally every battle! 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So the important part of this is knowing that most of the 30k content creators I follow always talk about how the community does not condone the WAAC lists approach. I am not familiar with how that stretches world wide, but I do consider this fundamental shift in how matched and competitive 40k has changed the state of what to expect. This has also innately changed locals in several areas, and why we seem to have a disconnect with half the player base.

I understand that 30k is just as unbalanced as 40k is, but in different aspects. I'm merely stating that my views are changing on how I view each detachment. So while I wouldn't enjoy playing against an all dread list currently, my thoughts on it have changed. Especially when looking at both the big picture and gaining insight from other individuals who put a lot more thought into the game state.

My interests fall in telling a story, but I understand the mass exodus of disenfranchised 40k players wanting something better. Ultimately, it comes down to the same answer it always has. Understand the social contracts put forth and create a healthy environment that sets a positive standard yet is inclusive enough for those that simply wish to push the envelope.

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten