Advice needed Are any of you limiting dreads?

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Dont-Be-Haten as to what 30k content creators say, what's left since the double whammies of inferno and 8th of 2017, is largely the narrative community, and they've honestly tricked themselves into thinking that there was never any sort of competitive reason to play 30k. People were never drawn to its rules; it had to be the setting. This is demonstrably false, as you can look at the activity in the tactica threads and rules sub forum for the first 5 years of the game and see the interest. 

The narrative community does not condone WAAC lists, but they aren't the community. They also tend to fail at grasping the more nuanced parts of the rules, as so many posts on social media about "what's changed" and "what weapons are good" are showing. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is expect different views on what 30k *is*, and for things like hypothetical skew lists, think about what's the meanest hard counter to them. It's definitely time to think more about list building regardless of a broader audience.

 

[MegaVolt87]

Things haven't had long enough to settle to overly worry yet. One trick pony lists will fall out of style when they start losing to TAC lists because you can actually make those viable in 30k vs 40k. Also, force those skew lists to play mission 4 domination or mission 6 War of lies. Win on objectives to punish one trick pony lists. Those people will clean up after losing out on those constantly. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

15 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Things haven't had long enough to settle to overly worry yet. One trick pony lists will fall out of style when they start losing to TAC lists because you can actually make those viable in 30k vs 40k. Also, force those skew lists to play mission 4 domination or mission 6 War of lies. Win on objectives to punish one trick pony lists. Those people will clean up after losing out on those constantly. 

6 troop dreads can easily claim objectives and are tougher than 10/20 man tac squads. Alongside a character dread that's going to brutal (3) characters by challenge out units if need be. Unsure how that interaction works against an IC in a group. It's been a while since I've had to remember that.

And they can still have 6 more contemptors plus Leviathan's and compulsory troops like their own tactical squads if need be, as well as room to build into it.

Im not sure how this list could be considered a 1 trick pony because of the variation that it can bring to the table. What am I missing?

[MegaVolt87]

4 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

6 troop dreads can easily claim objectives and are tougher than 10/20 man tac squads. Alongside a character dread that's going to brutal (3) characters by challenge out units if need be. Unsure how that interaction works against an IC in a group. It's been a while since I've had to remember that.

And they can still have 6 more contemptors plus Leviathan's and compulsory troops like their own tactical squads if need be, as well as room to build into it.

Im not sure how this list could be considered a 1 trick pony because of the variation that it can bring to the table. What am I missing?

 

Lack of line past 6 dreads means those other dreads won't be scoring anything. The omission of line from the majority of LOW makes moving things to troops not much of an advantage because they do not get line unless specified. The last place a dread wants to be is in a FNP tac blob grinding it out and getting hit with krak grenades etc. Your 11 contemptors and 3 levi's are 2765 points before any upgrades, only including the warlord dread upgrade. After upgrades on the dreads, you don't have much room for more actual line troop units. Mission 4 and mission 6 will completely screw the dreads ROW. The more efficient ROW would be the HQ dread, x6 dreads in troops, x3 levi and filling out the other x4 troop slots with actual troops units that score. Plasma TSS and lascannon spam is very much a counter against dread heavy lists. Even a TAC list has a lot of those anyway. The HQ dread can be mitigated by a command squad challenging the dread (chosen warriors) or any other unit with challenge type mechanics.. Thats 5 turns of the HQ dread effectively out of the game. Pride ROW would be a good counter to the dread ROW, melee vets can have nice setups to counter dreads. Stacking shred attacks will work, you will be taking chip dmg over time that way too. You have hold the line to force a disordered charge to rob all such advantages from doing so. Overwatch needs little explanation, though hold the line will likely be more common to tar pit dreads. Every legion has either something that can be done in a respective phase for an edge, playing passively and reactively against such a ROW will only get you so far. You need to have a setup plan to piece trade with dreads. 

Now, the social dynamic. Simply, such people will just be shunned out of groups and/or made to feel unwelcome if they don't change their ways if people can't deal. Or, people will bring two lists, one regular and an oppressive list to achieve the same thing. Gaming groups are not obliged to entertain such people or oppressive list builds. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

How does T4 get FnP against strength 9+? Last I looked you didn't get FnP against instant death or doubled out strength. Is this something I've missed? 

[MegaVolt87]

59 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

How does T4 get FnP against strength 9+? Last I looked you didn't get FnP against instant death or doubled out strength. Is this something I've missed? 

 

Correct, I made an error due to trying to remember old rules made new again and old exceptions etc. Still, swinging with only 3 attacks in say a tac squad blob full of krak grenades isn't exactly ideal either with a contemptor. Fist + gun is what you would be wanting on scoring dreads because you don't want them just standing there after pushing off a unit on an objective. There is play against Ancients ROW, its not hopeless like a lot of people are assuming. HH has a great toolbox to draw from to correct problem builds, unlike 40k. 

[Scammel]

(Do you remember when the whole 'deal' with MCs was that they couldn't be one-shotted by a lascannon, but that their T6, 4+ profiles could credibly be whittled away by small arms fire?...)

Edited July 13, 2022 by Scammel

[Brother Dallo]

So if my maths is right (and it’s worth checking), you need 270 Bolter shots to kill a Contemptor, on average. 2/3 (to hit) x 1/6 (to wound) x 1/6 (to fail 2+) x 5 wounds.

Not sure Tacticals are a decent answer to Contemptors.
 

[Uprising]

I am planning on taking 10 plus contemptors in an AL / IW fury of the ancient list.  If it is in the rules, I am taking my painted models.  Dreadnoughts are one of the coolest element in 30k / 40k, which is why I own 30+ of them in different flavour.  We are Alphurius, even in a dreadnought shell.  

[oldhat]

3 minutes ago, Uprising said:

I am planning on taking 10 plus contemptors in an AL / IW fury of the ancient list.  If it is in the rules, I am taking my painted models.  Dreadnoughts are one of the coolest element in 30k / 40k, which is why I own 30+ of them in different flavour.  We are Alphurius, even in a dreadnought shell.  

I am working on a ~10 Dread list for Salamanders or Iron Hands myself. Are they really so bad that folks are upset about them? I know they really do require dedicated weapons to kill them, but like... when is that a real issue in 30k? I'm so excited the all-dread list looks viable at all for once, no way am I going to not run one!

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

4 minutes ago, oldhat said:

I am working on a ~10 Dread list for Salamanders or Iron Hands myself. Are they really so bad that folks are upset about them? I know they really do require dedicated weapons to kill them, but like... when is that a real issue in 30k? I'm so excited the all-dread list looks viable at all for once, no way am I going to not run one!

I'd play you at least once, and if it was fun and you were a laugh, I'd play you again even if you wiped the floor with me. 

After that I'm sure you would be embarrassed at the one sidedness to not take it again, or agree beforehand that you were going to take it with the express knowledge I was building an army to counter it. 

Rinse and repeat. 

I think the only issue is as people have stated, those that want to curb stomp their opponent at the expense of fun on both sides. 

If going into a store for a pick-up game, take 2 lists, and give your opponent the option to fight against the non dread list if they feel it would be a waste of time playing against dreads. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

@oldhat if you repeatedly bring a large amount of dreadnoughts to pickup games, then yea, people are going to be upset. It's really hard to play against without optimizing a list for maximum fire power, which most people don't do outside of tournaments.

The comparison was made earlier about knight lists in 1st, but at least a lascannon or melta bomb could strip up to 4 hullpoints at once. And their invul only worked on one facing. And there were fewer than 10. Even then, it wasnt fun to play against; either you blew them away before they got to you on turn 2, or they got you.

Edited July 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[oldhat]

@SkimaskMohawk I will probably have a couple flavors - fluffy fun and semi-comp, at least. I don't think it would be a top-tier list under most circumstances - at least on paper... I could be wrong. But I definitely will magnetize it up so I can bring fun weapons along. Not every game needs to be waac, though I have been at shops where that is the norm.

[SkimaskMohawk]

34 minutes ago, oldhat said:

@SkimaskMohawk I will probably have a couple flavors - fluffy fun and semi-comp, at least. I don't think it would be a top-tier list under most circumstances - at least on paper... I could be wrong. But I definitely will magnetize it up so I can bring fun weapons along. Not every game needs to be waac, though I have been at shops where that is the norm.

Will the fury lists be top tier in the sense of the 40k pre-nerf drukari, ad mech, Orks, Nids, Custodes, Harlequins, and Nids again? No definitely not. But, at the very least, they're a stiff skew list that demands a calculated answer. The only way I can think of them as "semi-comp" is if you took a lot of heavy bolters, plasma cannons, autocannons, volkite and grav flux; basically making them only good for melee without the double melee benefit. 

I'll put it like this; 5 thunder hammer cataphractii, charging a single melee contemptor, die to it over the course of a few rounds of combat. The odd unit of terminators or heavy weapons doesn't quite cut it; you need to build around burning them down to deal with them in any efficient length of time.

[oldhat]

6 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Will the fury lists be top tier in the sense of the 40k pre-nerf drukari, ad mech, Orks, Nids, Custodes, Harlequins, and Nids again? No definitely not. But, at the very least, they're a stiff skew list that demands a calculated answer. The only way I can think of them as "semi-comp" is if you took a lot of heavy bolters, plasma cannons, autocannons, volkite and grav flux; basically making them only good for melee without the double melee benefit. 

I'll put it like this; 5 thunder hammer cataphractii, charging a single melee contemptor, die to it over the course of a few rounds of combat. The odd unit of terminators or heavy weapons doesn't quite cut it; you need to build around burning them down to deal with them in any efficient length of time.

Ohhh. Really? That is honestly surprising. Such a shakeup this edition because so much had hate had made Dreads in 1.0 a lot less desirable (unless they were super cheap or a Levi) it is wild to hear they are durable against their old nemesis the Hammernators.

Do you think GW will course correct this? Or just expect it to be an outlier?

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, oldhat said:

Ohhh. Really? That is honestly surprising. Such a shakeup this edition because so much had hate had made Dreads in 1.0 a lot less desirable (unless they were super cheap or a Levi) it is wild to hear they are durable against their old nemesis the Hammernators.

Do you think GW will course correct this? Or just expect it to be an outlier?

Imo, the claims of contemptors being fragile were never really grounded in good analysis. They were av13 with an invul, and were quite good against most shooting out there. They could get whacked easily in melee, but everything could, especially vehicles. People just remember the one-off lascannon exploding their contemptor, when it really had a 2% chance of doing that.

I don't think they'll see any changes other than making them more expensive, and I certainly hope that we don't see the balance dataslate/faq churn of 40k that completely changes an army's dynamic. 

As an aside, thundernators also lost to a contemptor in 1st; it was the chain fist for the same points that absolutely butchered them (and any other vehicle). 

[TheNineteenth]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:51 PM, Trixie said:

Of all the problems with this game, dreadnoughts being good isn't one of them.

 

I can't imagine forcibly limiting any unit, it feels more of a 40k solution to 40k problems. As this community is generally pretty good at self policing itself in terms of power lists I have never heard of groups needing to outright restrict or ban a unit.

The US big event tourney meta (Adepticon and NoVA) was very into limiting things back in the before times (generally to my chagrin). There was really a right way and a wrong way to (power) play the (power) game: hero hammer good, cool vehicles bad. Given how much better Terminators have gotten, and the stricter LoW limits (no longer possible to take small ones at 2500 points), at first blush I was feeling like the hero hammer has sort of been endorsed by Anuj, but after attending an event and seeing new meta, and digesting psychic nerfs, special rule conferring bans, etc, I feel much better.

No clue what bans in the US meta it will look like for the 'Nuj Testament. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by TheNineteenth
more data

[TheNineteenth]

On 7/13/2022 at 9:29 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Imo, the claims of contemptors being fragile were never really grounded in good analysis. They were av13 with an invul, and were quite good against most shooting out there. They could get whacked easily in melee, but everything could, especially vehicles. People just remember the one-off lascannon exploding their contemptor, when it really had a 2% chance of doing that.

I don't think they'll see any changes other than making them more expensive, and I certainly hope that we don't see the balance dataslate/faq churn of 40k that completely changes an army's dynamic. 

As an aside, thundernators also lost to a contemptor in 1st; it was the chain fist for the same points that absolutely butchered them (and any other vehicle). 

I'm really hopeful that there will more variety and less objectively best choices (previously: alpha strike drop, veterans, cataphractii, chainfists, leviathans) and more of the Legion specific units will be viable (that are no longer grossly better than basic terminators, creating real have/have-not power discrepancies between legions; fine for fluff, unfun for game play).

[OttoVonAwesome]

If 30k 2.0 becomes so popular that super competitive lists are the norm that's just fine. There's been competitive gaming groups for it forever wich I think been stated and it's so easy to craft hyper competitive lists that are so insanely diverse that it will never turn into like 40k where you have 70% of people playing variants of the same list. Also yeah there's hard counters out there to things like full dread lists say like someone playing a grav spam Iron hands, or HSS spam Death Guard or Imperial fists, etc that encountering these lists in any tournement or league setting puts any notion of easy victory into doubt. I think it's gonna be really fun especially when the rest of the armies have thier books to see how the competitive scene plays out compared to 40k.

[Brofist]

I do think contemptors are a bit too good, but its the RoW that makes them into a bigger problem. We're self regulating in our community, but we're not house ruling anything yet either since its basically a new game. There are other really strong things and we're all learning things. In general we've always been against house rules whenever possible anyway.

We're hosting the Las Vegas ZM event this coming January. We have another month of testing before putting together the players pack, but it will probably end up limiting the number of dreads to a certain number to help promote more friendly games.

Personally, I would refuse to play certain lists if I know the matchup is going to be unfun for me. This has happen between other players at events a few times and the people just adjusted their lists until both were comfortable with what they were taking.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Brofist

[TheNineteenth]

4 hours ago, Brofist said:

I do think contemptors are a bit too good, but its the RoW that makes them into a bigger problem. We're self regulating in our community, but we're not house ruling anything yet either since its basically a new game. There are other really strong things and we're all learning things. In general we've always been against house rules whenever possible anyway.

We're hosting the Las Vegas ZM event this coming January. We have another month of testing before putting together the players pack, but it will probably end up limiting the number of dreads to a certain number to help promote more friendly games.

Personally, I would refuse to play certain lists if I know the matchup is going to be unfun for me. This has happen between other players at events a few times and the people just adjusted their lists until both were comfortable with what they were taking.

LVO seemed like a fun group the year I went. There were some California power lists, but it is what it is. I hope it is a blast! I'm curious to try the new ZM (and have accumulated a couple of boards to that end; one resin and one plastic).
 

The self-reg. and opt out thing can work, but I find it is often the power players who do it (they came to win, are used to winning, and will tactically avoid fair matchups if given voluntary pairing).

This was my experience at the last NoVA I attended, where people playing Book 7 Custodes wouldn't take on the Malcadors I brought to slice their golden cheeselords. Similar experiences with the harder power players of the infamous Martinsville meta.

[oldhat]

21 hours ago, Brofist said:

I do think contemptors are a bit too good, but its the RoW that makes them into a bigger problem. We're self regulating in our community, but we're not house ruling anything yet either since its basically a new game. There are other really strong things and we're all learning things. In general we've always been against house rules whenever possible anyway.

We're hosting the Las Vegas ZM event this coming January. We have another month of testing before putting together the players pack, but it will probably end up limiting the number of dreads to a certain number to help promote more friendly games.

Personally, I would refuse to play certain lists if I know the matchup is going to be unfun for me. This has happen between other players at events a few times and the people just adjusted their lists until both were comfortable with what they were taking.

The game is what? A month old now? Probably needs 3-6 months before people start determining what is "too good". Lots of stuff seems great on paper but actually struggles to live up to the hype.

Also, sad to hear people actually opt out of games. Like, accept the challenge and try your best. Maybe I have that mindset because I cut my teeth on the 'Ard Boyz events, but I never declined a game in all my years. The idea that a list is "un-fun" is bizarre, because some of my highlight games were uphill battles against meta dominant lists and it was my opponent who made them fun and worthwhile even if I did eventually lose. Certainly made victories even sweeter too. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, back in the days of Ard boys, the game was really different. Vehicles got punked by anti tank and a durable monstrous creature statline looked like 4 wounds at t7 and a 2+. You could make a really, really mean list and still lose to good players, because thats just how the game worked. Skew lists existed but were to the tune of greentide and nidzilla, and could be played against and enjoyed if your list was solid and you were a good player.

The games moved on from those days a lot. Knights were fundamentally unfun to play against, both in the games where I autolost because I didn't have the anti-tank saturation required, and in the games I won where they got mangled on turn 1 and Scoria solo'd the left overs. Cron air of 6th was another exceedingly unfun list to play against. 

All dread fury lists follow those. Either you've built to specifically blast them down/outfight them in melee with your own dreads and primarch, or you lose because they're too durable and remove your stuff too efficiently. 

[Brofist]

Yeah, funny you mentioned Knight Armies. That was the first time people in our group started refusing to play games. Its not like we didn't play them a few times either, but if you're not going to have fun there's just better use of your time and other cool dudes at the event with other stuff to take. Our meta kinda adjusted from that. People still take harsh :cuss:, we're actually quite competitive overall don't get me wrong, but its those gotchya lists that are tough to deal with without a hard counter that lose to balanced lists where the self regulation begins imo. Different people like different things of course.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

7th edition 1850 points with 3-4 wraith knights and the best most mobile troops in the game was awful to play against.

Echoing @SkimaskMohawk unless you are prepared to handle an all dread list with grav and your own dreads and primarch, it's probably not going to be fun to play against.