HH Ultramarines Pride of the Legion List 3K

[Dusktiger]

Hey guys,

 

So to start off, I dont know if this list will ever get to face off on a table, but in case it does get the chance, i want to make it playable enough for it to do so.  The main purpose is to be an art project of sorts, making all the unique units the XIII have, and subsequent support units to go along with them to make it a viable force.  It's all being made with truescale versions of the models; not getting into the specifics there, but they'll be a bit taller than a primaris mini and have fancy armour bits to make them look more roman in design, as part of keeping it a project that'll be fun to build and paint.  I'm going Pride of the Legion because i want mainly infantry, and the majority of the XIII's unique units are all infantry anyway.

I have the following idea for the initial units so far:

Remus Ventanus..........175pts
Iron Halo, Bolt Pistol, Nuncio-vox, Melta Bombs, Frag/Krak Grenades, Artificer Armour, Legion Standard, Phaethon

Invictarus Suzerain Squad..........225pts
base 5 Models, all with a Legatine Axe, Argyrum pattern boarding shield, Frag/Krak Grenades, Artificer Armour, +5 Plasma Pistols
This unit i can make a Retinue for Remus, freeing up an elite slot

Praetorian Breacher Squad..........270pts
10 Models (base 5+5), all with a Bolt Pistol, Boarding Shield, Frag/Krak Grenades, 7 with Power Swords, +3 Legatine Axes

Ultramarines Nemesis Destroyer Squad..........195pts
base 10 Models, all with a Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Frag/Krak/Rad Grenades, 8 with Mortifier Bolters, +2 Heavy Bolters with Suspensor Webs

Honoured Telemechrus..........240pts
Kheres Assault Cannon, Gravis Power Fist with in-built Combi-Bolter

Fulmentarus Terminator Squad..........290pts
base 5 Models, all with a Combi-Bolter, Power Weapon, Fulmentarus Missile Array, Cataphractii Armour

Fulmentarus Terminator Squad..........315pts
base 5 Models, all with a Combi-Bolter, Fulmentarus Missile Array, Cataphractii Armour, 1 Power Weapon, 3 Power Fists, 1 Chainfist

Veteran Squad..........315pts
10 Models (base 5+5), all with a Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, 8 with Nemesis Bolters, +2 Missile Launchers

Legion Tactical Squad..........200pts
20 Models (base10+10) all with a Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Frag/Krak Grenades

Locutarus Storm Squad..........310pts
10 Models (base5+5), all with Argean Power Sword, Warhawk Pump Pack, Artificer Armour, Frag/Krak Grenades, 7 with Bolt Pistols, 2+Strike Leader with Plasma Pistol

This gets me already up to a whooping 2535pts.  Adding Guilliman makes it a clean 3000pts. 

This basically covers all 8 unique units they have at this point if i include Guilliman.  It also leaves open a spot to split the tactical squad into 2 groups of 10 for objectives if i needed to.

[jaxom]

The only concern I have is the one scoring unit. Splitting into two squads of ten would put a fire-break on casualties. I think you're going to have to play the rest of your units hyper-aggressively to make them must-target over the Tactical Squads.

[Dusktiger]

as i understood it, PoTL gives veteran squads and the cataphractii and tartaros squads the line subtype when taken as troops, making them scoring.  I'm not sure about the fulmentarus cataphractii, but since PoTL turns them from elites to troops like the other terminator units, i'd assume they'd probably get it too?

if it doesn't, then i'd definitely turn the 20 man unit into a pair of 10 each so i'd get at least 3 scoring units.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Dusktiger said:

as i understood it, PoTL gives veteran squads and the cataphractii and tartaros squads the line subtype when taken as troops, making them scoring.  I'm not sure about the fulmentarus cataphractii, but since PoTL turns them from elites to troops like the other terminator units, i'd assume they'd probably get it too?

if it doesn't, then i'd definitely turn the 20 man unit into a pair of 10 each so i'd get at least 3 scoring units.

PoTL second bullet point gives Legion Terminator Cataphractii Squads, Legion Terminator Tartaros Squads, and Legion Veteran Squads the Line sub-type if they are taken as Compulsory Troops choices (the first bullet point lets you select them as Troops). Those three are all specific units in the Liber and you only get two Compulsory Troops choices. The third bullet point in the RoW opens up Troops slots for legion-specific Elite terminator units by making any other Terminator armour equipped Elite units into Troop units. Your Fulmentarus would be Troops, but they wouldn't get Line.

However, I didn't do my homework. Invictus Suzerain Squads and Praetorian Breacher Squads are also Line. If you split the Tactical Squad into two units, then you'd have four Scoring units.

[Dusktiger]

Ok, I see where your coming from now.  So the veteran squad if taken as the compulsory choice will get line; I could swap out the 2nd fulmentarus unit for an identical veteran squad since they both cost 315pts.  Or use a cheaper veteran unit and possibly save points for a basic MSU unit of suzerains or praetorians.  I'll have to look at the point totals after work tonight and see what options I have. 

At least the quick and simple swap gives me 6 line units; suzerain, praetorian, 2 veterans, 2 tacticals.

[Dusktiger]

So looking at the list, and hearing that taking multiple units of Fulmentarus terminators makes you a "not nice" player, i've come up with this revision which gives me 6 units with the Line sub-type; 2 backfield sniper units, 2 midfield tactical units, and 2 suzerains to take front field objectives or reinforce midfield.  This gives me 230pts to play with to get back up to the 2535pts i get before adding in Guilliman.  I'm not too sure what to use the last 230pts on, but im also starting to hmm and hahhh about whether or not i want Telemechrus and Guilliman.  Any suggestions?  should i take them? swap them out for transports?  also, to help with list alterations, this list below has the units that are already built typed with their names bold and underlined for easy marking; anything not bold and underlined, i can swap/change at this point.

 

Remus Ventanus..........175pts
Nuncio-vox, Legion Standard

Invictarus Suzerain Squad..........225pts
base 5 Models, +5 Plasma Pistols
This unit i can make a Retinue for Remus, freeing up an elite slot

Ultramarines Nemesis Destroyer Squad..........185pts
base 10 Models, 8 with Mortifier Bolters, +2 Rad Missile Launchers with Suspensor Webs

Honoured Telemechrus..........240pts

Invictarus Suzerain Squad..........175pts
base 5 Models

Veteran Squad..........325pts
10 Models (base 5+5), +8 Nemesis Bolters, +2 Missile Launchers, +Augury Scanner, Compulsory Choice #1

Veteran Squad..........180pts
base 5 Models, +4 Nemesis Bolters, +1 Missile Launcher, +Augury Scanner, Compulsory Choice #2

Legion Tactical Squad..........100pts
base 10 Models

Legion Tactical Squad..........100pts
base 10 Models

Fulmentarus Terminator Squad..........290pts
base 5 Models

Locutarus Storm Squad..........310pts
10 Models (base5+5), +3 Plasma Pistols

 

[Cruor Vault]

I think the same people who have issue with two Fulmentarius units will also have issue with two units of Invictarius. 

That being said I also think you're lacking in a a LOT of the upgrades that make the game interesting/functional and dropping the second Invictarius unit would get you a lot of points for upgrades.  Not having any Artificer armor on sergeants to tank hits is going to leave your army way more fragile than it looks.  You're also lacking vexillia, augury arrays, and weapon upgrades on your sergeants.

I'm guessing you're a new convert from 9th edition 40k?

I would drop the second Invictarius squad, and use those points to pick up a couple of rhinos and put artificer/weapons on all your sergeants.  The rhinos are particularly useful for tank shocks and triggering the legion tactic.

[Slips]

if you want to free up some points, make your HQ Suzerian Squad a 10man Squad. 175 Base for 5 but only +30 for each additional means a full 10man squad is 325 base vs 350 for 2x 5man squads freeing up 25 points in your list for upgrades.

[Dusktiger]

Ok, list V 1.3.  this totals 2965, leaving me with 35pts for sergeant weapon upgrades etc.  I put Augury Scanners on the veterans so night fighting doesn't reduce their long range shooting.  all the sergeants now have artificer armour, and the squads that can take them, have vox's and vexilla's.  I actually hadnt fully read what those did the first pass through the book, so now i see why they're considered desirable wargear.  Is there anything i'm missing at this point that you guys think i should add?  If i need to, i can drop the named dread, as i just tossed him in there cause he's a unique unit to the legion; he's 50pts more than a normal contemptor with the same wargear, and gains +1 WS, W, A, and Ld, and gains Hatred (Everything).  But i'm on the fence about whether he's worth it, or if i should kick him out for more gear, more fulmentarus/veteran bodies.

 

Remus Ventanus..........175pts
Nuncio-vox, Legion Standard

Invictarus Suzerain Squad..........375pts
10 Models (base 5+5), +5 Plasma Pistols
Retinue for Remus

Ultramarines Nemesis Destroyer Squad..........215pts
base 10 Models, 8 with Mortifier Bolters, +2 Rad Missile Launchers with Suspensor Webs, Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla, Artificer Armour

Honoured Telemechrus..........240pts

Veteran Squad..........355pts
10 Models (base 5+5), +8 Nemesis Bolters, +2 Missile Launchers, +Augury Scanner, Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla, Artificer Armour, Compulsory Choice #1

Veteran Squad..........210pts
base 5 Models, +4 Nemesis Bolters, +1 Missile Launcher, +Augury Scanner, Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla, Artificer Armour, Compulsory Choice #2

Legion Tactical Squad..........130pts
base 10 Models, +Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla, Artificer Armour
Rhino Transport..........35pts

Legion Tactical Squad..........130pts
base 10 Models, +Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla, Artificer Armour
Rhino Transport..........35pts

Fulmentarus Terminator Squad..........290pts
base 5 Models

Locutarus Storm Squad..........310pts
10 Models (base5+5), +3 Plasma Pistols

Primarch Guilliman..........465pts

[Cruor Vault]

Can you drop the Plasma Pistols to free up some points for sergeant melee weapons? 

A power fist on your Tactical Sergeants is very important, and a thunder hammer on your Destroyers and one of your Invictarii would be a good idea.  A power sword for your veteran squads would be good so they don't get bogged down.

[jaxom]

Agree, pistol 1 once or twice per game (and with gets hot) is not as valuable as enhancing a Sergeant's melee ability.

[Dusktiger]

Okay, so here's V 1.4 of the list.  How's this looking?  If any other changes have to be made that require more points, i'd probably cut out Telemechrus to get the necessary points, as i'm not dead set on having to keep him.

Remus Ventanus..........175pts
Nuncio-vox, Legion Standard

Invictarus Suzerain Squad..........335pts
10 Models (base 5+5)
+1 Thunder Hammer
Retinue for Remus

Honoured Telemechrus..........240pts

Ultramarines Nemesis Destroyer Squad..........240pts
base 10 Models
+8 Mortifier Bolters, +2 Rad Missile Launchers with Suspensor Webs
+Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla
Sergeant Wargear: Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer

Veteran Squad..........365pts Compulsory Choice #1
10 Models (base 5+5)
+8 Nemesis Bolters, +2 Missile Launchers
+Augury Scanner, Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla
Sergeant Wargear: Artificer Armour, Legatine Axe

Veteran Squad..........220Pts Compulsory Choice #2
base 5 Models
+4 Nemesis Bolters, +1 Missile Launcher
+Augury Scanner, Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla
Sergeant Wargear: Artificer Armour, Legatine Axe

Legion Tactical Squad..........145pts
base 10 Models
+Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla
Sergeant Wargear: Artificer Armour, Power Fist
Rhino Transport..........35pts

Legion Tactical Squad..........145pts
base 10 Models
+Nuncio-vox, Legion Vexilla
Sergeant Wargear: Artificer Armour, Power Fist
Rhino Transport..........35pts

Fulmentarus Terminator Squad..........290pts
base 5 Models

Locutarus Storm Squad..........310pts
10 Models (base5+5)
+3 Plasma Pistols

Primarch Guilliman..........465pts

++ Total: [3,000Pts] ++

[Cruor Vault]

Sergeant's can't take Legatine Axes.  Axes are limited to Independant Characters only.

You can use the points saved from that upgrade to throw some melta-bombs on a couple sergeants?

I think Plasma pistols are terrible this edition.  So I wouldn't spend any points to bring any, but thats my personal opinion.

50pts for the buffs Telemachrus has over a normal Contemptor is pretty good.  His gun is not the most flashy option, but with Hatred and the extra stat bumps he's better in melee than most people give him credit for. 

Any specific reason for using Remus?  As of now, the only unit he can reasonably join to give Line to is the Fulmentarius, and that would make them lose the benefit of Heavy.

[Dusktiger]

Named character for the legion, and nice model, basically.

I think plasma looks better now. You're getting AP2 like before when you roll 4+, and if you have to eat a gets hot roll, it's at ap4, so you get your armor save.  I think that's much better than the old plasma.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Gets hot allowed armour saves in 1st; the plasma weapons are all currently worse than their previous incarnation.

[Dusktiger]

how so? iirc, HH1 plasma was Str 7, AP2, gets hot!.  the new one is Str 7 AP4, Gets Hot!, Breaching (4+).

on your marines, your armour save cant be taken against AP2, so it's invul (and cover?) saves only.

But with AP4 base, then a gets hot! armor save is against AP4, so even basic 3+ marine armour saves against it.  And with Breaching (4+), you have 50% odds that your to-wound roll against a target is upgraded to AP2. 

As far as i can tell, that's better overall, and makes them more appealing to field on your models.

But that's my opinion, so it's fine if you disagree.  I just don't see your reasoning for why plasma is now worse than before when it seems to have a safety net built in to keep you from killing basic marines with a bad to-hit roll.  can you explain why you believe they're worse than before? to counter why i think they're better?

[Slips]

13 minutes ago, Dusktiger said:

how so? iirc, HH1 plasma was Str 7, AP2, gets hot!.  the new one is Str 7 AP4, Gets Hot!, Breaching (4+).

on your marines, your armour save cant be taken against AP2, so it's invul (and cover?) saves only.

But with AP4 base, then a gets hot! armor save is against AP4, so even basic 3+ marine armour saves against it.  And with Breaching (4+), you have 50% odds that your to-wound roll against a target is upgraded to AP2. 

As far as i can tell, that's better overall, and makes them more appealing to field on your models.

But that's my opinion, so it's fine if you disagree.  I just don't see your reasoning for why plasma is now worse than before when it seems to have a safety net built in to keep you from killing basic marines with a bad to-hit roll.  can you explain why you believe they're worse than before? to counter why i think they're better?

previously Gets Hot! didnt have an armor penetrating factor to it; when you rolled a 1 with plasma you always got your armor save. So, in this instance, it lost its always-on AP2 for AP2 on a 4+

Now, Gets Hot! happens with an AP value equal to the AP value of the weapon so if all plasma was Ap2 then rolling a 1 would basically instakill a marine.

Thats why Plasma is strictly worse than it was before

[Blitzjager]

Add a few Thunder hammers to you Suzerains.  It lets you demolish Dreadnoughs and Terminators with the S8 brutal 2 hits.  I run 4 TH and they do some real work

 

[Dusktiger]

I might play with the numbers a bit to try to fit that many. I did fiddle with it and made them have 2, but I forget where I got the pts from.

 

Been trying to catch up on my backlog of warhammer imperium models to teach my niece with, so I havent spent much time on this.  But I do plan to circle back to this soon as I can.

[MegaVolt87]

20 hours ago, Blitzjager said:

Add a few Thunder hammers to you Suzerains.  It lets you demolish Dreadnoughs and Terminators with the S8 brutal 2 hits.  I run 4 TH and they do some real work

 

Yeah, with UM, I noticed they really need those thunderhammers where you can get them if skewing more to infantry. Also melee vets are more effective and points efficient. That WS 5 is really going to waste as a shooting setup. 

[Dusktiger]

true, but with their rules including relentless, you have the option of them being geared like vanguard or sternguard veterans.  and being able to move and shoot when youre carrying a gun with Heavy 1, Sniper, Pinning is nice to have in the event you gotta reposition the unit and dont wanna waste your shots.

[Captain Idaho]

How do we find the Nemesis Destroyers? I feel Seekers do their job somewhat better, to the extent they're killing power of bolters. But they do have nice little tricks.