Emperor's Children cosplaying Space Wolves? Or a loss of identity

[Kassill]

So recently I have been listening to a lot of different podcasts while painting/building and I am doing some catch up within the last 2ish months of episodes for a number of them. The CSM book looks and sounds like an absolute hoot and I am very happy for our fallen intrigued by all the things that book can do and how much flavor it exudes for each legion. 

But the Emperor's Children really caught my ear the last few nights, specifically on the Art of War podcasts. 

So roughly speaking, they have been described as a "melee control" army, which is how I kind of viewed Space Wolves up until this point (side note I don't have a lot of 9th experience) with Saga of the Warrior Born, Armor of Russ, Murderous Hurricane, and Judiciar(?) 

Now looking at them, they have a couple of fights last Characters/strats, as well as having army wide fights first with marks, no penalties to hit , icons giving +1 to to hit, heroic intervention, are a mixed bag of things we can do with Hunter's Unleashed, Keen Senses, Countercharge, but arguably better than us. As well as having some straight heaters with strats like Honour the Prince and Death Ecstasy. 

Maybe I am turning a bit green with jealous rage, but it definitely feels like a "anything you can do I can do better!" which actually makes a lot of sense for Emperor's Children. 

Any thoughts from my fellow Rout members or any CSM players as well? 


(just to note, this is not a complaint, I don't have the tabletop experience in this edition to back it up. Simply my thoughts tonight as I doze off painting)

[Guest Triszin]

I say why not. If you feel. They are a better fit, do it!

 

 

While this isn't how wolves are, My own thoughts on wolves, I think they should Excell at charge range. (Increased lethality when within 10")

What does this mean to me?

- bonusto/ability to : charge/counter charge/fall back 

- bonus to shooting or wounding when within 10"

I dont think wolves should be #1 melee.

But they should be able to punch above there weight (when charging/counter charging).

Combo with the ability to fallback and use there shooting bonus when within 10" makes them a routing force

 

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Kassill I agree with you. GW gave EC a lot of what made us a unique faction. Then they made those tricks easier to access and better. Our advantage is we do have more units to pull from due to access of codex marines. In a match up versus EC we would get stomped if we tried to play the same tactics we traditionally used. Leaning into Wulfen to fight on death may be effective. *shrug* Even then Wulfen aren’t a cheap unit to be able to “trade up” into anything EC would throw at you. 

I am a bit annoyed that they made EC a combat control army. Since third I’ve always envisions them as a shooting army that is above average at combat. 

Theres definitely a gulf between early 9th books and later 9th books. Our time will come again. Just be prepared to lose access to anything “not in the box”. I do agree with Triszin on how our army should be envisioned. But it’s not how our army is designed for Nephilim. Our secondaries are geared towards combat so that’s what GW thinks of us. 

[Bulwyf]

I play SW and EC as well as other armies. EC is definitely better than SW right now. It isn't even close. I have a friend that only plays SW and we've had two games of EC vs SW and it was a blood bath. My noise marines shooting plus running into possessed or chosen or terminators were really tough on him. Lucius is an absolute gem of a character now. 

EC are good in both melee and shooting which, frankly, they should be. That's their whole fluff of trying to be perfect and learning other legions ways of wars and excelling beyond their teachers from those legions. SW should be insanely good in melee. And...we just are not. They are good but not great. 

I would give anything to swap the "fight after death" rule for Wulfen for them to regain advance and charge. It would make them a much better unit. But in terms of strats/tactics....SW's supplement is beyond ancient in this point in 9th's life cycle. We got a terrible supplement that has only aged like sour milk over 9th with the insane power creep that 9th has been.

 

[Tokugawa]

EC and CSM faction exclusive secondaries are pretty bad, while Glory kills and Warrior pride both have obviously better than average record. 

 

I think the advantage of loyalist marines is they have more tools and more ways to play. If you play in a way similar to CSM, then you will be crushed by your CSM opponents, since they are better at "being CSM" than you.

[Bulwyf]

2 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

EC and CSM faction exclusive secondaries are pretty bad, while Glory kills and Warrior pride both have obviously better than average record. 

 

I think the advantage of loyalist marines is they have more tools and more ways to play. If you play in a way similar to CSM, then you will be crushed by your CSM opponents, since they are better at "being CSM" than you.

This is very true. CSM/EC secondaries are not good. Taking standard secondaries out of the book is the only way to go frankly with them. SW new secondaries in the latest GT are much easier to get along with Oath of Moment. 

[Kassill]

7 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

EC and CSM faction exclusive secondaries are pretty bad, while Glory kills and Warrior pride both have obviously better than average record. 

 

I think the advantage of loyalist marines is they have more tools and more ways to play. If you play in a way similar to CSM, then you will be crushed by your CSM opponents, since they are better at "being CSM" than you.

 

 

Right, but my whole point was that currently EC are better at being Space Wolves than Space Wolves (see above list of similarities etc). One article I read even stated as much in their analysis of the CSM book that "playing EC is like playing SW without admitting/having to playing SW" 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Kassill

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 I think the main issue is that space wolves and EC both fit into the same archtype. In prior editions the initiative stat really helped the two forces feel more unique because EC controlled it by swinging first, and wolves controlled by being just as dangerous when charged as they were when they charged. Factor in our unique units and the armies felt different.

 

With the changes to how close combat works, the addition of stratagems, and the sheer amount of army rules everything has gotten a bit murkier it's just really hard to feel unique. Effectively "melee control" armies have become a list of abilities and the army that can leverage them the best is the strongest. Which is frustrating because I think it's fair to say EC are better at being SW than SW are at the moment, but I'd argue the opposite had been true for most of this edition. I'd rather have some of the uniqueness back instead of having a ton of options that make armies feel the same. Cause being weaker but unique is easier to handle then being obsolete. 

 

 

[Tokugawa]

Another month passed, and creation of Bile prove itself the most powerful codex CSM subfaction, by far. Guess why? They don't care about combat control shenanigans at all, and make opponent decisions about melee trades very difficult.

 

Wait wait, isn't that a familiar thing to SW players…?

[Lord Ragnarok]

I miss the Good/great close range shooting and combat specialist wolves of 3rds and 4th. I would LOVE if that came back.

[dees]

The fist time I played Space Wolves was 3rd Edition. I truly do miss having a LRBT with Space Wolves driving it.   Regarding EC I think we have to play our strengths as loyalist Space Marines like Tokugawa said.  It is difficult to for use to go toe to toe with combat specialized armies that often require us to deal with faster and stronger threats.  It's also hard to survive against elite shooting as ignoring modifiers is becoming more prevalent in new codices.   This makes it very frustrating to collect and field Space Wolves because we're kind of a Jack of All Trades, Mater of None army at the moment.