Drukhari/Dark Eldar during the Great Crusade

[Pacific81]

Hi folks,

A quick background question on the Drukhari/Dark Eldar during the Great Crusade. We know that the birth of Slaanesh and the destruction of the Eldar caused the warp storms around the galaxy to abate and the Emperor to embark on the Great Crusade. The Eldar that had seen that the excrement was about to hit the fan had embarked on their craftworlds (we have some description of these in Fulgrim). My question is what form/appearance would the Dark Eldar have had around that time? Their 'fall' had been relatively recent - would they have already had their full 40k-mode of spikes and slave girls? Or would they have been more recognisably equivalent to their Craftworld Cousins, with warrior aspects still existing in some form (perhaps with some initial 'mark' with trophies and adornments of their armour?) Am thinking of recreating miniature wise and very grateful for any thoughts!

[Xenith]

"The Path" system, of which the Warrior aspects are one part, were originated by the craftworlds, post-fall I recall, in order to focus the eldar mind and stop them from falling into decadence and degredation. At the time, the craftworlders were still seen as weird yokels who upped and fled on their probably low tech spaceships into the void while the rest of the species continued with the atomic orgy. The worst of the worst, I think, hid in the web way, kind of like the dark web, the weirdos that were too extreme for even the other obsessive eldar that stayed on the crone worlds - and thus their hidden location saved them from the birth. They probably would have changed over the millenia, but not so much as to be unrecognisable - like 30k to 40k marines. 

[Sky Potato]

I’ve just read one of the Salamanders short stories where Vulkan fought off some Drukhari raiders on Nocturne before he encountered the Emperor. And I also recall a short story with a small, isolated force of Space Wolves who fought off Drukhari on a planet during the Great Crusade - said planet then refused to join the Imperium afterwards, with fairly predictable results.

So the Drukhari were an independent entity from the Eldar at the very tail end of the Crusade.

[Fire Golem]

Am I right in thinking that the Pre-Fall Eldar (right before the fall) were probably closer to Dark Eldar than to the Craftworlds? As Xenith said, most of the craftworld society was created to prevent the behaviour that caused the fall, but didn't the DE basically carry on as before, just in the webway and now the whole torture thing was a necessity?

[Noserenda]

They were closest to the Corsairs pre fall, the Dark eldar have evolved various things based on their conditions/culture over the millennia. Socially they had not developed Kabals for example but i suspect most of the things present in their 40k incarnation are around in some form, certainly on a 40k scale army.

[LameBeard]

Which book/short story has Lorgar and Angron fight together on an Eldar ship?

I’m pretty sure it’s by ADB and one special highlight is Lorgar telling Angron the bridge reminds him of “Curze’s Bedchamber” - ie the implication is some Dark Eldar traits are well-established.

[Fire Golem]

3 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Which book/short story has Lorgar and Angron fight together on an Eldar ship?

I’m pretty sure it’s by ADB and one special highlight is Lorgar telling Angron the bridge reminds him of “Curze’s Bedchamber” - ie the implication is some Dark Eldar traits are well-established.

Butcher's Nails? The audio drama. Rings a bell for that.

[Pacific81]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, really appreciated. I hadn't realised the Aspect idea was one perculair to the Craftworlds, so that precludes Eldar Aspect models from being used.

So it sounds like perhaps Dark Eldar/Drukhari but with some moderate conversion work, perhaps a few of the spikes and more excessive 'Hellraiser'-type stylings removed? Perhaps a non-conventional colour scheme to help differentiate them as Corsairs?

[Bung]

Comorragh existed before the Fall of the Eldar. I have to dig out one of the older Codiziis for the timeline.

But it wasnt really controlled by the normal Eldar society.

It had been in the hands of some sort feudal Houses and the acted mostly as pirates and raiders in the real universe.

 

Think of some sort Tortuga in Pirate movies.

 

[Spagunk]

Wasn't it implied that the Visarch's armor was closer to that of pre-fall Eldar? That might be an inspiration on how Drukari might be presented during the crusade. That and possibly various corsair stylings.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Spagunk

[LameBeard]

I like the idea that the growing Imperium hasn’t really yet learned to differentiate between different type of Eldar - they are all ‘perfidious’, untrustworthy, all considered as raiders or pirates - i.e. corsairs with a small c. And of course this mirrors what is in the Rogue Trader rulebook - I think even harlequins we’re introduced via White Dwarf, and then Aspect Warriors. “Dark” Eldar didn’t make it until 3rd edition?

And so I like the idea the models could reflect this - with ‘Corsair’ and ‘Drukhari’ visual elements. I assume if you are worried about spikes on the shoulder this is not for Epic scale? Shame, would be great to see the next army after World Eaters and Orks.

For colour scheme, seems to me essential that they have yellow helmets with black zebra stripes? Isn’t that what all the Rogue Trader eldar like to sport?

 

 

[Pacific81]

Ooh the Visarch looks very cool - thanks @Spagunk

@Lamebeard - thanks a lot for your thoughts, really appreciated. I had been having similar ideas about adding Rogue Trader-inspired Eldar mercenaries/corsairs, as everything seems to be coming round full circle with this kind of thing these days. Believe it or not this is actually for Epic scale and some minis do have spikes! It might cost me my eyesight but I will try and do some conversion - my plan is (sneak preview) as part of a mass Legion vs. Ork battle, the Eldar/Dark Eldar corsairs turn up and will start attacking broken units (they are trying to gather slaves) as a fun addition to the game.

As I have an opportunity, this is a piece of art from Rogue Trader that has always stuck with me; there is such an enigmatic and almost organic style to the Eldar, and they definitely don't look friendly!

[Noserenda]

That sounds awesome :) 

Mixing Corsair and Dark eldar bits sounds like a plan, as they are essentially particularly nasty Eldar raiders, that might feature some gladiators, mad scientists and the like that form the basis of things like wyches and haemoculli but they are still settling into place.  I think some pop up in the Asurmen novel but the Jain Zar one has several looks at proto-dark eldar if that helps :) 

[The Scorpion]

18 hours ago, Spagunk said:

Wasn't it implied that the Visarch's armor was closer to that of pre-fall Eldar? That might be an inspiration on how Drukari might be presented during the crusade. That and possibly various corsair stylings.

Space Wolves lore has them face against both Eldar.

 

Tales of Heresy has a story called "Wolf at the Door" where the Wolves defend a planet from a Drukhari raid and it's Humunculus leader. They are very much like the ones from 40k. Makes sense cuz Dark Eldar style their culture on the one before the Fall.

 

Prospero Burns mentionned how the Wolves destroyed an Eldar craftworld.

Several craftworlds that had escaped the Fall got caught in the Xenocidal frenzy of the Great Crusade.

[Brother Sutek]

Also remember part of the draw of the Dark City for Eldar was that a noble could have his/her own private "game reserve", for lack of a better term, that they could indulge in whatever pleasures they wanted without interruptions. There was little that was outright banned but if you had to share or had someone on the doorbell all day you couldn't enjoy yourself fully. Secret homes in the webway made all things possible.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Dark Eldar would probably look incredibly similar to what they do now, as the Wych Cults and Haemonculi Covens predate the rise of Vect and formation of the Kabals. 
Even the Noble Houses (Kabal “precursors”) wouldn’t really have been too different, it was mainly just an organisational change. 
 

The main difference is that the soul thirst wouldn’t have been as fully understood at the time, so they’d still be raiding primarily for the sport if it, rather than to capture slaves for survival. 
 

In regards to the Craftworlds, they’d be far less militant at the time. The Craftworlds hadn’t developed soul-stones yet, so Wraith troops largely wouldn’t exist, and the Aspect Temples would be only just barely be started, with maybe a handful of Shrines at most on each Craftworld. 
The Craftworlds were basically just massive refugee ships, like the idea of cruise ships escaping to sea in zombie movies.

 

By and large, the Craftworlds would mostly just stick to themselves, they’ve just fled in galactic life-boats, escaping an empire-killing apocalypse, and are now grappling with the physical, mental, and spiritual consequences of no longer reincarnating after death, but instead having their souls snatched away by an incarnate evil desperate to consume their souls for eternity, having already killed and eaten their gods. 
 

Even the proto-Drukhari would be grappling with this fact. Before, they could loot and pillage to their hearts content, if they die they just “respawn” and come back after going through childhood again. Now, death is permanent. 

[Xenith]

20 hours ago, Pacific81 said:

I hadn't realised the Aspect idea was one perculair to the Craftworlds, so that precludes Eldar Aspect models from being used.

So Craftworlders didnt all set off at the same time, they fled the empire sequentially at different stages, the earliest managing to get furthest from the now location of the eye of terror - late runners, like Altansar, didn't manage to escape. Knowing Eldar lifespans and their seers, it's possible that the earliest craftworlds were in existence for thousands of years before the fall. 

Similarly, the Eldar books show that craftworld life has evolved based on the location and psyche of the world itself - Ulthwé is near the eye so has more psykers, etc. Biel Tann probably housed the first aspects. Even Iyanden's identity is based on interaction with Tyranids, who in-universe, have only been around for a few hundred years? 

I'd say it's more than possible for aspects to exist during the heresy. Also, the marines would have killed a hell of a lot of eldar that they encountered - there might have even been other aspects on crafworlds exterminated during the Crusade. 

Sorry, tangent on Eldar, not Dark Eldar.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

It is my understanding that the Drukhari were already well on their way to being the lunatics they are now.

Keeping in mind, the Aeldari society was so depraved that their heinous acts created a god of excess in a cataclysmic galaxy spanning storm of destruction....and that society was considered too tame for those that had already chosen to just live in Commorragh full time. By the time of the actual event of the fall, the Exodites were looong gone, they had seen the signs coming and wanted nothing to do with what was about to come, and the Craftworlds had mostly left the homeworlds, having also eventually caught on to what was coming down the road towards them. Not even all of the craftworlds made it in time to escape the cataclysm.

And someone mentioned it, but yes, part of Vulkan's coming of age was that he rallied his homeworlders against Drukhari raiders. The raiders had plagued Nocturne for generations at that point, and were described in the book pretty much exactly as they are now. That's how his adopted father died, I think, and is when he took over stewardship of the planet.

So, yes, the drukhari would have basically been in the form we think of them today. THEIR fall was not actually very recent in M31, they had been at it for probably centuries to millennia at that point. It's just that the FINAL fall of the actual Aeldari core worlds was relatively recent. But by the time that came around, the Commorites just laughed and carried on .

The difference would be that the movers and shakers at that time were essentially still nobles from the old Aeldari society, who still considered themselves in charge. Around/just after the heresy (I forget the exact timeline), Vect overthrew that societal order and put himself in charge, and he has run the city ever since. (He partially did this by capturing some Salamanders and baiting their brothers into the dark city to rescue them, and then letting them absolutely lay waste to huge swathes of it, thus eliminating his rivals).

Anyway, this is my long winded answer to a relatively easy question: They'd probably look similar.

[Doghouse]

Didn't lorgar kill an avatar of khaine when he went to the eye of terror on some crone world? I could be remembering it wrong but I recall aspect warriors and thinking that'd come later? I think if anything the dark eldar would be worse and more crazy at this time as I'm not sure they'd be as structured as they are in 40k. I imagine them more like the marauders in firefly at this time.

 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I think the path system existed at the time, since it's kind of foundational to the Craftworld way of life. The craftworlds were well established by the time of the fall, and some of the furthest flung had been around for quite a while by then. Also, the worship of Khaine and therefore probably the Avatars had existed in the Aeldari pantheon since the early days of their race, I think? I could be wrong on that one.
And you may be right about the craziness of the Drukhari at that point, but I also feel like in a lot of ways they are worse now than they had been. Commorragh itself is a bit like Terra in the current 40k timeline, in that it was a technological and artistic marvel (twisted and psychotic as it was), but it has been degraded and neglected for 10000 years at this point, so it's significantly different.  

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Doghouse said:

Didn't lorgar kill an avatar of khaine when he went to the eye of terror on some crone world?

Yes, he was exploring the ruins of a Craftworld that failed to escape the Fall and crash-landed on a planet in the Eye of Terror. The Avatar was dying as the lack of any living Eldar to feed its battle-lust was causing it to slowly solidify back into a statue. Khaine only split into Avatars during the Fall which was around 150 years prior to the novella "Aurelian". I think the HH writers take a few liberties in portraying CWE as already fully formed just 200 years after the Fall. The Avatar in Aurelian would have to have been created pretty much just before the Craftworld was destroyed.

Fulgrim also faces an Avatar and Aspect Warriors just before the outbreak of the Heresy.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the Heresy era craftworlders in the HH novels dont really line up with the ones in other sources, shame really because it was a good chance to show something unique as in Angel Exterminatus.

[Cactus]

@Lord_Caerolion what's the source for eldar reincarnation pre-Fall? I don't recall that from my 2nd ed codex.

[Noserenda]

49 minutes ago, Cactus said:

@Lord_Caerolion what's the source for eldar reincarnation pre-Fall? I don't recall that from my 2nd ed codex.

Its certainly around in 1st edition once they nailed down the Chaos and Eldar stuff. Im pretty sure its hinted at in the 2nd ed book though? At least in the "why" of soulstones. But yeah, look at the two initial Chaos books, itll be in there if not the original white dwarf articles.

[Tyriks]

2 hours ago, Cactus said:

@Lord_Caerolion what's the source for eldar reincarnation pre-Fall? I don't recall that from my 2nd ed codex.

Page 14 of the 2nd edition codex mentions it briefly. I think it's in all the subsequent ones also.

Quote

Their lives were long, and when they eventually died their spirits dissolved peacefully back into the warp to be reborn again.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Nemesor Tyriks