Unit of the week Unit of the week: Legionaries

[Cpt.Danjou]

+++Unit of the week+++

 

Legionaries

This thread is only for tactics for Legionaries, not for pictures, there are other places for that.

How to best use Legionaries?

• Wargear?
• Legion?
• Marks?
• Which stratagems are worth throwing out?
• Any solid unit combos?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Cpt.Danjou
Getting the thread in line with the other Unit of the week threads

[Cpt.Danjou]

As an Iron Warrior player, I started to use them as a solid range unit with Mark Of Nurgle, but found them a bit lack luster in shooting, and I have had the bad luck of almost only meeting Tau, so Mark Of Nurgle has not helped me that much, stupid S5 weaponry. The icon has helped a little with the shooting, but I might go with Undivided close combat Legionaries in the future, because I don't see the mark helping them that much in my meta. 

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Khornestar]

In the games I played, I included a unit of Slaanesh-marked legionaries with the balefire tome in every game. One time I tried the daemon blade on the champion, but otherwise everyone just has a pistol and chainsword. This is the Word Bearers.

I picked Prescience for their power, and had Smite/Delightful Agonies as backups. I think I used Prescience essentially every time.

Boltguns aren't particularly good; I bring terminators for anti-infantry shooting, so with the Word Bearers re-roll hits trait and the extra attacks from having chainswords, they manage to do work. Not a hammer, but a decent enough clean-up crew or a companion unit for the terminators/chosen/whatever clearing the objective. I'm sure there are those who would disagree, but I mostly prefer upgrades on specialist units who will actually do something with them. Plinking away with a single gun or swinging away with a single melee upgrade just isn't going to accomplish much. There will certainly be times when having a melta to finish something off, or a flamer to help clear chaff will work out, but in general I'm not a fan.

Cultists for the backfield, I like to advance the legionaries up the field so they always have a worthwhile target for Prescience and add objective secured bodies to the big melee in the middle that is all too inevitable.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Khornestar

[Galron]

I field them as support for my terminators with a balefire tome and delightful agonies. Depending on points I add in a heayv weapon dude for ranged fire support/chip damage. If I can get on an objective and still do the psychic support then I go that route as a bonus.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Seems like balefire tome is the most common upgrade - any results from any of the others such as the big two handed axe?

[TrawlingCleaner]

I ran 2 squads of Legionnaires as Red Corsairs a few weeks ago across 4 games.

One squad was: 9 Marines, 7 with Chainswords,  Power Sword on the Champ, Icon + MoK and Heavy Chainaxe

The other was: 5 Marines, 4 with Boltguns, Balefire Tome and a Chaincannon (No mark)

 

The 5 man squad with the Balefire Tome sat back and held objectives, as well as giving out Prescience to those that needed it or Smites when I needed to deal with Morty or a C'Tan shard. I'm not sure I would keep the Chaincannon on these guys going forward. The extra shots were handy but didn't feel neccessary for the set up I had (10 bikes generally kick out enough dakka), I'd perhaps swap it out for a Plasma gun or another heavy weapon so they can kick out a bit more damage.

 

The Khorne marked marines were surprisingly extremely good. Most turns before they charged in, had Huron's full rerolls on. S5, -2AP on the chainswords is incredibly good into most targets with 7 getting 28 attacks out, even with AoC, Space marines struggle with that many 4+ saves. The Power sword comes in at S6, -4AP and shreds Power armour and tougher infantry and the Heavy Chainaxe did a surprsing amount of damage in the games I played. Their most suprising kill was a full health Armiger. Between the Heavy Chainaxe and the Chainswords, they downed the Armiger in one round before moving onto carving 14 wounds off an Abominant the next combat turn

[acrozatarim]

A 5 man unit with the Mark of Khorne is a good way to fill a Troop slot while getting access to the Scorn of Sorcery strat - great vs your opponent's psychic secondaries and key powers.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

I've been running two big squads in my black legion lists,

One khorne ten man wt icon, 8 with CS, Champion with powerfist, and a heavy chainaaxe,

One nurgle ten man wt icon, 9 with bolters and the balefiretome

I take Prescience as my power, but I usually cast miasma of pestilence on the squad

The khorne squad wreck house, killing anything they hit in combat, especially with veterans of the long war. The +1 to hit from charging is amazing and helps the powerfist and chainaxe a ton. The nurgle squad I mostly use to push onto objectives as they are pretty hard to shift, they are an excellent unit to use heralds of doom on.

 

I've tried some small 5 man squads but they are killed pretty easily and I'd rather have cultist for cheaper points. Regarding marks and icons with BL in mind I feel that slaanesh and tzeench are less useful. Units already get +1 to hit when you make a charge so taking a slaanesh icon is kinda worthless. The only benefit is the ability to cast delightful agonies on them. I feel a similar way about tzeench but to a lesser extent. If you're facing a non AoC army the extra ap is pretty good, otherwise it is worthless. The 0 Dmg plus weaver of fates is pretty tough, but I feel nurgle with the -1 to wound and miasma is tanker.

[Relic]

Disclaimer - I have not used Legionaries enough to really come down on a well reasoned response. So far I have mostly stuck with the tried and tested Cultist mobs to fill out the troop slots, do actions and screen. Like Khornestar I tend to take more specialist units and leave troops to do the grunt objective work.

I do however want to explore them more. On the face of it they are a flexible obsec unit with access to marks and icons - jack of all trades and master of none. You can take them in certain directions (psychic support/shooting/close combat), but they will never outdo the specialist units for raw damage/durability. I'd rate them above Space Marine Firstborn/Primaris troops. Issue as ever however is at 18pts a model base, they aren't cheap. 

A disappointment as well is due to more limited CP, the good specific unit stratagems for them like double shoot/combat is quite expensive CP wise to build around. Otherwise, you would have real incentive to build around decked out 10 man squads of Legionaries and investing CP into them. 

In God specific Legions like Emperors Children/World Eaters - you likely take Noise Marines/Berzerkers as they are straight up improvements. 

The most common setups I see is:

1. The troop tax/objective holder unit: 5 Legionairies with bolters or chainswords. Likely chainswords outside of Iron Warriors as the AP is better on a chainsword. In cover, the unit is relatively durable and much harder to shift then Cultists. No marks or equipment, cheap(ish) and cheerful(ish). 

 

2. The support unit: 5 Legionairies with bolters or chainswords, Mark of Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh and Balefire tome (Your defensive God Power and Prescience). Similar to the objective holder unit, but provides more utility and takes some useful powers. As HQ slots are so tightly contested, a Sorcerer often does not make the cut. 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Relic

[Maggotlord]

I only tested... 

Mark of Tzeentch, heavy Bolter, Bolter, Balefire Tome (Prescience), Icon, Iron Warriors

=>for 1 cp they can dish out AP-2 anti infantry shooting and offer spell support

=>outside Iron Warriors their output is too low, even the icon isn't worth it then

 

Mark of Tzeentch, Swords, Melter, Balefire Tome (damage spell), champ with powerfist, Black Legion

=>short ranged a Melter and 2 damage spells (due to MoTzeentch) can do some serious damage to harder targets

=>thinking about going 10 men strong with a double handed axe for more melee power

=>love the versatility of this midfield unit, especially in smaller points games

 

Mark of Khorne, swords, icon, Black Legion

=> really high melee damage output

 

Overall I think the Bolters aren't worth it. In melee you get more attacks, more AP (chainswords) and you literally attack twice per round. It's so much better

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So I've been using a full squad with Trophies of the Long War -- Viper's Spite, power sword, heavy bolter, RCC, balefire tome, MoT & icon, and the rest bolters.  It's a lot of dice, and between the Tzeentch Icon and Daemon Shells I'm having decent success punching through power armor.  I actually haven't had the opportunity to play against anything that doesn't have Armor of Contempt but I would think that AP2 bolters, AP2 RCC, and AP3 HB would be good for grinding down most infantry.  The Viper's Spite is natively AP3, so those two AP buffs really let those six shots land.

 

For the Balefire Acolyte, my go to powers are Skeins of Fate and Prescience.  I'll use Skeins on the squad itself if I think they're going to be in danger from a high-AP attack in the next turn; otherwise I'll Prescience either them or another unit nearby that might benefit (they tend to hang halfway between the Berzerkers running forward and the lascannon Havocs in the backfield, and both love the extra accuracy).

 

I'm building a melee squad -- all chainswords, two plasma pistols, the heavy chainaxe, and the daemon blade on the champ -- with MoK and an Icon.  I *might* use them instead of the Berzerker squad that's been a feature of my list for years now simply because they benefit from the Legion Trait; Zerks tend to attract a lot of gunfire, and that -1 to hit helps to mitigate some of the damage.

[tychobi]

Creations of bile mark of slanesh icon tome and chainswords = murderous. Str5 and hitting on 2s does work

[Cpt_Reaper]

I am that dingus that never treats my Legionaries as a tax or runs MSU - full squads all the time because they are the core of my force. I take a single blob of cultists as a screen for more valuable things, and I consider it a personal failure if they survive the game. Not my Legionaries though, they are valued. My Daemon engines open the breach in the lines, my fast assault units widen the breach and my Legionaries storm in and capture the objective.

I was running 2x 10-man squads with dual Reaper Chaincannons and MoS, but now that's not a legal loadout I need to rethink one of the support weapons. Which is a pain, because the chaincannon works amazingly well with Legionaries. 8 shots, but hitting on 4's when moving means you should still statistically hit with half which is one shot more than a heavy bolter stationary. Combined with 7 bolters and you put out a lot of dakka in the 12-24 inch range, then pop the double shoot strat and they can clear out most objectives if need be.

[Relic]

I am tempted to try the Iron Warriors combo of the Warlord Trait that lets Core Units within 6'' count as stationary after making a normal move and some 10 man Legionaire Squads with Mark of Tzeentch, Autocannon and either a Heavy Bolter or Reaper Chaincannon. No move and fire penalty and you can also still rapid fire the bolters at 24 after moving because you count as stationary. 

Looks cool on paper! Issue is I guess that AP -1 bolters, even with ignore cover aren't doing much into Armour of Contempt. Maybe Mark of Nurgle instead for auto-wound 6's to hit could be an idea. 

The sensible part of my brain says though, if you want heavy weapons just take Havocs who are reasonably costed and require no Warlord Trait support. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Havocs are better suited for high strength/low rate of fire guns like autocannons and lascannons. Take advantage of their longer range to keep them safe from retaliation. Sure they have an extra wound and T5 but every death is a big loss.

Armour of Contempt vs -1 bolters isn't that big of a deal. It's just as bolters have been forever. Get into rapid fire range and make them roll enough saves. The Legionnaire squad softens them up so the bigger guns finish them off. Or the other way around, whichever works.

I will test out whether a flamer, heavy bolter or missile launcher would fit better in my Legionnaire squad next to the chaincannon. Of course, running Iron Warriors obviously influences that, especially running the move'n'fire warlord trait.

[MasterDeath]

12 hours ago, Relic said:

I am tempted to try the Iron Warriors combo of the Warlord Trait that lets Core Units within 6'' count as stationary after making a normal move and some 10 man Legionaire Squads with Mark of Tzeentch, Autocannon and either a Heavy Bolter or Reaper Chaincannon. No move and fire penalty and you can also still rapid fire the bolters at 24 after moving because you count as stationary.

How about nurgle, heavy bolter and chaincannon? Max number of shots, potentially twice?

[danodan123]

5 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Havocs are better suited for high strength/low rate of fire guns like autocannons and lascannons. Take advantage of their longer range to keep them safe from retaliation. Sure they have an extra wound and T5 but every death is a big loss.

Armour of Contempt vs -1 bolters isn't that big of a deal. It's just as bolters have been forever. Get into rapid fire range and make them roll enough saves. The Legionnaire squad softens them up so the bigger guns finish them off. Or the other way around, whichever works.

I will test out whether a flamer, heavy bolter or missile launcher would fit better in my Legionnaire squad next to the chaincannon. Of course, running Iron Warriors obviously influences that, especially running the move'n'fire warlord trait.

I'm sorry but havocs don't have an extra wound, or do you mean after their last datasheet before everything csm got the extra wound?

 

I'm struggling to find a use for heavy weapons in squads but MoS with a fist and heavy chain axe with presience hits so hard on 2s and even re rolling with the word bearers trait.

[Cpt_Reaper]

5 hours ago, danodan123 said:

I'm sorry but havocs don't have an extra wound, or do you mean after their last datasheet before everything csm got the extra wound?

 

I'm struggling to find a use for heavy weapons in squads but MoS with a fist and heavy chain axe with presience hits so hard on 2s and even re rolling with the word bearers trait.

Sorry, I did mean them getting a 2nd wound as the extra wound. It's still new enough that I tend to say CSM units got an extra wound.

The weird ruling that you can have 2 special or heavy weapons in a Legionary squad but both weapons must be different is such a dumb move. That alone messes up all sorts of synergy for the basic squad. I'm not giving up on the unit though.

[danodan123]

1 minute ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Sorry, I did mean them getting a 2nd wound as the extra wound. It's still new enough that I tend to say CSM units got an extra wound.

 

I thought you meant so but I guess could be confusing with some new sheets having the 3 wound treatment and some don't! Chosen, bikers etc...

 

I keep putting together a legionary unit and thinking oh thats not bad! Then realising that the points really do start to stack up on them! 

[Verbal Underbelly]

I think there's something to be said for a couple of basic 5 man units with a missile launcher lurking in the background to make use of Skyshrike missiles. 

4 attacks each (with chainswords) on a 10 man unit is nothing to be sniffed at. I'm running EC with a power fist champ and icon so everybody is hitting on 2s and re-rollings 1s with my Mnatle of Traitors Chaos Lord. Get's a bit of work done. 

[Relic]

I think the issue with Legionaries in the likes of EC is that Noise Marines with a blastmaster on paper seem straight up better? I agree though that a missile launcher in a list is no bad thing considering our real struggles vs pesky flyers!

I am trying this setup later in the week for a unit of Legionaries (Iron Warriors).

• 10 Legionaries: Mark of Tzeentch, Chaos Icon, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1x Havoc Autocannon, Aspiring Champion W/Chainsword, Bolt Pistol & Trophies of the Long War (The Warp's Malice).

Using the Implacable Taskmaster Warlord Trait so they (and other units) can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty + rapid fire bolters at 24'' (they count as stationary in the shooting phase). With Daemon Shells the unit puts out a respectable:

1. Fourteen 30'' -2 AP, bolter shots;
2. Three 42'' Strength 5, -3 AP, 2 Dmg Heavy Bolter shots;
3. Four 24'' Str 5, -4 AP, 2 dmg shots with unmodified 6's to hit causing 2 mortal wounds (Warp Malice) and;
4. Two 48'' Str 7, -3AP, 2 DMG Autocannon shots.  

All ignoring cover on an obsec platform. Not too bad for 220pts. I may go for broke and try doing the Daemon Shells and Shoot again Stratagem (-3CP total) in a turn. I listened to a podcast and it made a good point about the Warp Malice, it is a way to cause mortal wounds in the shooting phase. We can also do mortals in the psychic phase and combat phases, so a combo of all three avenues of doing mortal wounds opens up ways to kill wound locked units like Necrons C'tan. 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Relic

[Verbal Underbelly]

Conversely, unless you're going to buy the sonic weapons there's no actual difference between legionaries and noise marines. My planned list contains a mix of both for that reason. 

I think the primary drawback of legionaries is the inability to really specialise them. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Verbal Underbelly

[hierojin]

Finally played some games with our new codex.

For Legionaries I usually take a 5 man squad with an autocannon and the rest with chainswords to hold a backfield objective and/or to act as a casting battery for my Master of Possession.

The second squad is ten man strong, mark of slaanesh +icon with a balefire tome in a rhino. The champion carries the blade of the relentless relic blade.

Adding Diabolic Strength (WC6) on the champ we are looking at six attacks S8 (Creations of Bile), -4AP (hello AoC), D2, hitting on 2s and some mortals on 6s to hit (with the option of Murderous Perfection for an additional hit roll of 6 --> 2MW).

Of course striking first in melee.

The whole squad comes at around 225 points + the rhino and -1CP for the relic.  

[Cpt.Danjou]

I see big changes using legionaries after the last points changes, I think I will probably use more of them, and more kitted out. How will the impact your units?

 

Cpt:danjou

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've been using them in my lists, with some kitting out. I quite like not having to pay for icons anymore, and other things.

 

I'd been using mark of slaanesh if I bought it for them. I may continue to do that, but I might pick a different mark instead. They're making their points back anyways due to icon not costing 10pts or whatever anymore.

 

So I'll probably continue to use them. My last game, a MSU with the balefire tome was pretty effective, camping an objective popping spells off at T'au stuff that was in range.