Changes to the Horus Heresy Fluff - The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[DukeLeto69]

14 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I hope it isn’t so much the end as much as the major conclusion. Meaning I hope other stories will be told but put in more like how 40K books are.

And I hope they explore GC legions. I would love to see Revenant Legion stories, or stories in the transition from the Eaters of the Dead to the Blood Angels.

Off topic but there are so many events in the timeline between 30-40k that could support a major new series. Personally I would love them to explore the Age of Apostasy BUT as a setting with lots of singular books and mini series rather than treat it like a story.

[Noserenda]

It would be more accurate to say there is no canon, because GW says there is no canon, so absolutely any arguement about what canon is better canon is more than a little ridiculous. Like the canon when we get down to it.

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

It would be more accurate to say there is no canon, because GW says there is no canon, so absolutely any arguement about what canon is better canon is more than a little ridiculous. Like the canon when we get down to it.

People say this but it’s not true.

There is canon. Without canon there is no lore to reference. It’s a loose canon, but there cannot be a frame of reference without canon.

 

To say there is no canon means John can say there is no such thing as the in universe Codex Astartes, that the Legions didn’t exist, that the Imperium uses the Star Trek starships, etc. John would say this, and I would have to accept it as a truth in the setting because I would have no proof to say he is wrong. But because there is a canon, I can prove to him he is wrong.

[DukeLeto69]

I don’t follow any other IP so this may be completely wrong, but are the settings with tight lore/canon those that tend to be Hard Sci Fi and those with a looser approach to canon those settings that are really Science Fantasy?

 

My point being that in a SciFantasy setting we don’t need to know how things work really. They just do.

[Arkangilos]

24 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I don’t follow any other IP so this may be completely wrong, but are the settings with tight lore/canon those that tend to be Hard Sci Fi and those with a looser approach to canon those settings that are really Science Fantasy?

 

My point being that in a SciFantasy setting we don’t need to know how things work really. They just do.

Ambiguity and room for authors changing events, whether hard or soft sci-fi, is what determines how hard the canon is. Meaning how books are accepted or not accepted as being counted as being part of the continuity. GW could create a rigid canon if they wanted to say that “these books are definitive in every way and all things must fall within the bounds of this.” It’s loose because they give more leeway in what authors and readers can do. Canon (which is known as a rule, in this case the rule accepted books) is loose when the rules for what is accepted are loose. “This book is accepted today, but won’t be part of the timeline tomorrow”.

 

Star Wars is an example of Science Fantasy that had a rigidly defined canon that had a process before a book could be accepted as actually being in universe.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Arkangilos

[Scribe]

7 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

At what point does what came before become sacrosanct and anything thereafter that deviates a retcon?

 

Who determines the baseline or where that line in the sand is? What determines it?

 

Is it weight of words published on a topic? In which case the BL execution of the HH series easily trumps anything else.

 

Is it time passed? Well by the time the last SoT book is published, more time will have passed with the HH books series underway than there was from launch of the Titanicus game and Horus Rising.

 

Once it's printed and established. There is a basic framework of how the rest of this arc goes. There are established beats. Usually keep it.

 

It's not about time, or how many words, it's about it existing. Retcons are lame.

 

As far as expansion goes?

 

Watch Packs are expansion. However really look at it. Look at Legion cultures. Look at these individual Primarchs.

 

Does it make any sense? No.

 

Emperor's Executioners was expansion. Now again, does it make any sense whatsoever to elevate the Wolves in such a manner when you had other Legions already out there who would kill anything as it was, and who were still Loyal? No.

 

Perpetual arc? 10000% unnecessary to the actual story.

 

And yes, I would have greatly preferred if Saturnine was his last book, and Wraight or ADB finished the series.

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

Star Wars is an example of Science Fantasy that had a rigidly defined canon that had a process before a book could be accepted as actually being in universe.

 

Wait the what now? Star Wars tried a reboot with the full canon route. It failed. Not just through the number of mistakes or timeline crunching, but also because they started commissioning literal children's stories that were by necessity very off while still counting those as canon regardless. Nevermind the "some are canon, some aren't, you decide" anthologies like From A Certain Point of View, which went and retold A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back with literal dozens of stories (40 for the first book, by 40 different authors!) and even within those anthologies, stories would crush each others' toes.

 

And the Expanded Universe before that was basically the Wild West. You had generally accepted canon points, but the details could vary drastically. Nevermind that stuff like Luuke was "canon" there.

 

Yes, current Star Wars has a canon. It has a story group supposedly overseeing the canon.

Thing is: They get ignored. If a movie is being made, the movie comes first and will happily retcon established characters and events - Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi are two prime examples of that; if you've read the novels that led up to the sequel era, or character tie-ins, you'll quickly find out that the movies changed a ton and then other, later publications - from novels to comics - had to go and smooth things out somehow, not unlike the Heresy had to do over the years.

 

There wouldn't have been such a weird amount of criticism about Tales of the Jedi, an animated mini series, if it hadn't been partially contradictory of a novel featuring similar/the same events in another way, which was out years ago, or confused the timeline to a point where fans had to puzzle things out based on other material just to make it work.

Star Wars is very much pretending to have a stable canon these days, but it's often just as loose as 40k. Often doesn't take more than a look at the comic releases of the year.

 

So I can't in good conscience leave Star Wars as a prime example of "rigidly defined canon" - even their reference books retcon stuff all the time and are inaccurate in many ways!

[wecanhaveallthree]

I can't even imagine a world where the Siege finishes and we don't get another fifty books plus on the Scouring, which is a much more open-ended arena to tell stories in. While some story beats must be hit - the Iron Cage, the destruction of Caliban, etc - I'm actually quite looking forward to seeing the HH reversed, with the Loyalists on the advance and the Traitors in retreat. Considering a significant portion of the galaxy declared for Horus (and others simply used the chaos to stop paying their space taxes), I think the inevitable Scouring is going to be the 'Great Crusade' series people have asked for as the Loyalists attempt to reclaim and reconstruct the Imperium.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Once it's printed and established. There is a basic framework of how the rest of this arc goes. There are established beats. Usually keep it.

 

It's not about time, or how many words, it's about it existing. Retcons are lame.

 

As far as expansion goes?

 

Watch Packs are expansion. However really look at it. Look at Legion cultures. Look at these individual Primarchs.

 

Does it make any sense? No.

 

Emperor's Executioners was expansion. Now again, does it make any sense whatsoever to elevate the Wolves in such a manner when you had other Legions already out there who would kill anything as it was, and who were still Loyal? No.

 

Perpetual arc? 10000% unnecessary to the actual story.

 

And yes, I would have greatly preferred if Saturnine was his last book, and Wraight or ADB finished the series.

You KNOW I am not going to agree with you but it is a futile exercise because your views are just as valid as mine and they are subjective to us.

 

All retcons are lame then once something is in print/published? In that case I go back to the point when Horus was just a rebellious general and there were no Primarchs. Everything since is clearly a lame retcon... except of course they aren’t if they subjectively improve on what came before.

 

It all becomes a circular argument. And as I said at the beginning of all this discussion... GW/BL have signed off on the expansions to the lore that Abnett and other authors have introduced. That means, like it or not, the BL HH series IS the definitive lore. So best just headcanon it away and enjoy the bits you enjoy.

 

peace brother peace

[Scribe]

17 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

GW/BL have signed off on the expansions to the lore that Abnett and other authors have introduced. That means, like it or not, the BL HH series IS the definitive lore. So best just headcanon it away and enjoy the bits you enjoy.

 

They sure have, and the series has many novels, that simply are irrelevant. 

 

It would take quite a bit to sour me on his work further. I just hope he doesn't reveal that "oh actually through the power of Christ's forgiveness, Horus is saved".

[DukeLeto69]

10 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

They sure have, and the series has many novels, that simply are irrelevant. 

 

It would take quite a bit to sour me on his work further. I just hope he doesn't reveal that "oh actually through the power of Christ's forgiveness, Horus is saved".

But you are constantly dumping on Abnett. He is a writer for hire. He may have firepower but he is still employed by the IP owners to produce a product that THEY approve off and sign off on. Abnett does not have free reign ERGO GW/BL like and want his ideas to be canon!

 

Do you honestly believe Abnett will tamper with the big beats? He may add nuance and flavour but the big beats will be there.

[Scribe]

21 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

But you are constantly dumping on Abnett. He is a writer for hire. He may have firepower but he is still employed by the IP owners to produce a product that THEY approve off and sign off on. Abnett does not have free reign ERGO GW/BL like and want his ideas to be canon!

 

Do you honestly believe Abnett will tamper with the big beats? He may add nuance and flavour but the big beats will be there.

 

I honestly believe he has more pull to alter things than anyone else, and often has the desire to do so, without regard for what makes more sense.

 

Perpetual, Cabal,  Emperor's Executioners, Ol is a Catholic, Superhero Buddy Adventure.

 

Nope.

 

So if he can get us over the finish line without adding more to that esteemed list?

 

Great.

[DukeLeto69]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I honestly believe he has more pull to alter things than anyone else, and often has the desire to do so, without regard for what makes more sense.

 

Perpetual, Cabal,  Emperor's Executioners, Ol is a Catholic, Superhero Buddy Adventure.

 

Nope.

 

So if he can get us over the finish line without adding more to that esteemed list?

 

Great.

Defo has more pull than anyone else.

 

You know he will resolve the Perpetual arc! He will also, at very least, sprinkle the breadcrumbs that provide the set up for the Eisenhorn/Ravenor/Bequin books!

[lansalt]

IMO, the perpetual arc can only end with all dying one way or another unless Abnett tries to surprise us in Pandemonium. We've seen a couple being already perma-killed and we know what happens to Malcador. It makes sense to properly set the beginning of the 40K era, like Sigismund and Keller becoming zealots, etc.

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Defo has more pull than anyone else.

 

You know he will resolve the Perpetual arc! He will also, at very least, sprinkle the breadcrumbs that provide the set up for the Eisenhorn/Ravenor/Bequin books!

 

If he could keep it inside the lines that would be great. I'm not interested in the Abnett-verse.

[jaxom]

6 minutes ago, lansalt said:

IMO, the perpetual arc can only end with all dying one way or another unless Abnett tries to surprise us in Pandemonium. We've seen a couple being already perma-killed and we know what happens to Malcador. It makes sense to properly set the beginning of the 40K era, like Sigismund and Keller becoming zealots, etc.

I think Ollanius is the only one left, and he's not making it out alive unless there's a massive retcon coming up. Grammaticus sacrificed perpetual-ness to resurrect Vulkan, whats-her-name did the same for Malcador, and Erda was killed by Erebus. Every other Perpetual was killed prior to the Siege by Eldrad Ulthran in Old Earth. 

[lansalt]

There's also Actae (formely Cyrene, the Blessed lady of the WB) that eventually may end becoming 40k's Moriana. Erda also mentions that there were other perpetuals, but their fate is not explained.

[DukeLeto69]

36 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

If he could keep it inside the lines that would be great. I'm not interested in the Abnett-verse.

Oh be prepared. He will totally ensure he sets up for for the Bequin books as part of the Abnett Meta-Verse.

 

Personally I hope he does because some things require it. Buuuuut as an aside not front and centre. Focus needs to be on HH with breadcrumbs for what comes 10,000 years later.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Oh be prepared. He will totally ensure he sets up for for the Bequin books as part of the Abnett Meta-Verse.

 

Personally I hope he does because some things require it. Buuuuut as an aside not front and centre. Focus needs to be on HH with breadcrumbs for what comes 10,000 years later.

 

It doesnt require it though, but you are right he will do it. I just hope it is clearly unrelated to wrapping up THIS story, as I dont care about the other one he wants to be telling.

 

In the end though, it doesnt matter, its done already, and we just have to sit in trepidation for his eventual SHOCK TWIST. 

[Arkangilos]

11 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Snip

Having books doesn’t make the books canon. A company can have a rigid canon and still have a lot of non-canonical books and sources printed and published. The canon supersedes the weight of every other book. 
 

In the case of the given example, Episode IV (movie) supersedes the written books that conflict with it (at least under Lucas). So if I am in a conversation with John, and he says Character A was on Frozen World in the book “Hope falls darkly on canons”, but in the movie “Hope Doesn’t Fall Darkly” he is on Water Planet, the movie is the Canonical Source that resolves the dispute.
 

So yes, there was a rigid canon because we knew exactly what outranked what when it came to lore.

[Roomsky]

After re-reading Wecanhaveallthree's excellent theory about Horus' corruption being a part of the Emperor's plan against Chaos (something I'd be fine with) and my constant, vehement repulsion at the "Sanguinius is the final boss" theory, I got to thinking about what makes a good retcon/expansion in the Heresy. And, for that matter, why are ADB and Abnett's contributions treated so differently?

 

Despite my efforts, I don't think there is a concise answer, at least not in terms of written content. Rather, I think it's based around how the written content compares to a fan's values when it comes to the setting. For me, the Heresy appears to be trying to expand on the myths and legends we already know, instead of supplanting them. With that in mind, I'm not a huge fan of "big twists," because the series isn't built on subversion.

 

For example: Sanguinius in general. I would have LOVED if the Heresy was treated as a "here are the roots that Imperial mythology is based on, but are now forgotten," with wild deviations and things like Sanguinius as a wingless, blood-drinking monster man. Because OF COURSE a hyper-religious empire of space-nazis would depict the primarch who died for the Emperor as a golden-armoured, Arian, literally-winged angel. But for all the little twists Horus Rising introduced us to, the series was clearly not created with the distortion of history as a big priority. Sanguinius has wings, the Emperor is beloved, Horus is Charismatic, the Emperor's Children are full of themselves. The tone of Horus Rising establishes, to me, that the series is one of "yes, but," as in "yes, the Emperor was reconquering the galaxy for the good of mankind, but, it wasn't quite the golden age that was advertized."

 

And the "yes, but" lens codifies all the changes I've been fine with, and is ADB's general approach. Yes, the Emperor loved mankind, but he was cold and manipulative in achieving his goals. Yes, the Iron Hands were crippled after Isstvan, but it didn't stop them from raising all sorts of hell. And this applies, for me, to the idea that Horus was a sacrificial pawn (if done well.) Yes, Horus rebelled and helped doom the Imperium, but perhaps it was not as unforeseen as one might think. Maybe the Emperor really did love Horus, but for entirely different reasons than expected. This is why I don't mind Perpetuals or the Cabal for the most part, because 99% of the time they're an addition, something to expand the world. Rarely do they hijack an established character's arc (and we'll get to Alpharius shortly.)

 

But I really don't jive with full on supplanting fluff. The Sanguinius theory would be the nadir/apex of that, but let's see a few examples of what I think didn't work that we've already gotten:

• Alpharius' reasons for defecting have been entirely overwritten. I don't mind Cabal involvement, but Legion didn't even allude to Alphy's rivalry with Guilliman or friendship with Horus.
• Sanguinius defeating Ka'Bandha at Signus is isn't just surprising extra context, it invalidates his later triumph. The Emperor still cares about mankind despite his pragmatism. Sanguinius' triumph stops being a triumph when he bodies Ka'Bandha with ease on Signus.
• Typhon is a Barbaran and Mortarion's bestie, completely replacing their original dynamic.
• Psykers are banned at Nikea, instead of just sorcery (and sorcery is what Magnus uses to warn the Emperor anyway!)

And this isn't the be-all end-all factor. Bad books have expansion I don't hate, conceptually (perpetual Vulkan, Alpha Legion involvement with the Raptors,) and good books have expansion I do hate. Despite wholesale retcon being the whole premise, I enjoy Legion. But Legion didn't need to be divisive. It could have married new ideas with old fluff, the fluff fans would be coming to the book for, rather than just supplanting it. Besides the sorcerer point, I love the combo that is A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, because one just tells the story you came for, and the other adds a new spin if you want it. You can ignore Prospero Burns, and you don't lose vital information. I wish it was a more widely taken approach. Abnett is the idea master, and many of his are brilliant. But there's a point where Abnett can write something well that still ends up being his Heresy fanfiction - but I think Abnett's writing is just as good when he has a few guidelines to respect. The question is not "will Abnett write a quality finale?" I have zero doubts he will. The questions is: "will Abnett write a quality finale that respects why a large portion of the audience are buying it in the first place?" I think so, but there's certainly precedent for oddities in his approach.

 

The point of all this rambling is that Abnett can still fly off the handle with these last books without pissing off half the fandom. I don't care if there's 600 extra layers of prophecy and plans within plans and Chaos and Xenos and Perpetual intervention. I don't care if Sanguinius goes Super-Saiyan or if the Emperor was playing the long game this whole time. But we're here because Sanguinius is killed by Horus, then Horus and the Emperor kill each other. You can expand on that without nuking any core tenets. And I hope that's what happens.

[lansalt]

I think that Horus vs. Sanguinius will happen with no subversion. The opposite would break and invalidate 40K's BA visions, lore and plot lines too much.

The fight between Horus and the Emperor? I'm sure that's when Abnett will make big plot twists or reveals, some that may have been foreshadowed. Remember Sigismund's last words to Abaddon, and how in the previous versions of the story he isn't supposed to be there when it happened what he said.

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

I think that Horus vs. Sanguinius will happen with no subversion. The opposite would break and invalidate 40K's BA visions, lore and plot lines too much.

The fight between Horus and the Emperor? I'm sure that's when Abnett will make big plot twists or reveals, some that may have been foreshadowed. Remember Sigismund's last words to Abaddon, and how in the previous versions of the story he isn't supposed to be there when it happened what he said.

 

Loken and Keeler will be in the duel. Enuncia and Chaos Sorcery will be used

 

Abaddon vs Loken

 

Samus vs Valdor

[Lord_Caerolion]

Typhon originally was Barbaran, though. When he got introduced in the 3.5 book, it’s mentioned how he’s rumoured to be descended from the overlords on Barbarus. Subsequent fluff tried to change that, and then it got changed back to the original. 

[Scribe]

6 hours ago, Roomsky said:

With that in mind, I'm not a huge fan of "big twists," because the series isn't built on subversion.

 

Indeed this.