Changes to the Horus Heresy Fluff - The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[wecanhaveallthree]

As a Shattered Legions fan, I have to disagree. It was a book that was a great and much-needed insight into the Iron Hands post-Istvaan, with a good dose of 'where does the Imperium go from here' and 'how evil space religion is gonna getcha'. I think that may be the central issue people have with Damnation: it didn't talk about the people they wanted it to talk about, and didn't deal with stories they were really interested in reading. It was doing legwork for the rise of the Imperial Faith outside of neat, tidy Keeler and putting the Shattered Legions (not exactly popular factions presented in a pretty unpopular way) on show. 

[DukeLeto69]

56 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

As a Shattered Legions fan, I have to disagree. It was a book that was a great and much-needed insight into the Iron Hands post-Istvaan, with a good dose of 'where does the Imperium go from here' and 'how evil space religion is gonna getcha'. I think that may be the central issue people have with Damnation: it didn't talk about the people they wanted it to talk about, and didn't deal with stories they were really interested in reading. It was doing legwork for the rise of the Imperial Faith outside of neat, tidy Keeler and putting the Shattered Legions (not exactly popular factions presented in a pretty unpopular way) on show. 

I bought all the HH but skipped some including this one. I may have to read it now!

[Roomsky]

I'm actually shocked that wecanhaveallthree and I's posts are doing to well over there, not that I'm complaining. It seems we've finally hit the distance from release where readers don't care about mis-marketing anymore. It feels like I see more threads to the tune of "why did people hate this book?" every year. 

 

But yes, Pythos is genuinely good, and deserves a positive re-appraisal far more than most dark horse heresy entries. In addition to wecanhaveallthree's point above, another element the novel adds is scale and consequence. Not every legion gets revenge, and not every Iron Hand gets to ride high with Meduson. There's nothing wrong with broken legionaries wandering around larger fleets, but Pythos gave us a stark look at the ignoble doom that would befall so many post-dropsite. As an Iron Hands fan, I genuinely like it better than Wrath of Iron.

[System Sound]

4 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

Itd be interesting when the series is done to see what scores people give each novel.

 

For me the worst was Damnation of Pythos. Up till that point I had read every book. That was the point where I thought "I'm not going to bother any more". There might be a few other worse ones since but from that point on I only read the ones by authors I liked. 

 

 

Vukan Lives and Deathfire. I was bored to tears by both and by the end of Deathfire, I fell asleep.... I've lost all interest in Salamanders because of those two bland...stories...

[cheywood]

The Buried Dagger is my vote. I’ve forgotten almost all of that book as a self defense mechanism.

[DarkChaplain]

Pythos was great and I loved it to bits.

 

Not only is it a novel as close to horror as a Heresy novel was going to get, it also has dinosaurs (and in a good way, not the Kyme "these are exactly like our own dinosaurs from 65+ million years ago! Same names!" way) and it also deals with a "one-off" story branch that stood as an example of the fractures in the Legions, with ships and fleets going their own ways, being broken apart or simply having differences post-Isstvan.

 

It did not need to tie harder into the "main plotlines". It wasn't padding out existing plotlines, either. It was simply a reasonably stand-alone novel dealing with that happened in the galaxy thanks to Horus' betrayal, and how even Astartes can be shaken by events, or even traumatised. They were also the first Legion to lose their Primarch - the Salamanders may have feared they had lost theirs, but obviously, they hadn't, and that's a big difference in Shattered Legion content to me.

Meduson doesn't come in as a savior figure. They're on their own. They're a splinter of a shattered Legion. They didn't truly get to participate at Isstvan, prompting even deeper survivor's guilt. Not just that, they pretty much fled the system after Ferrus Manus died. They had to for survival, but they're loathing it.

 

On top of that, Pythos is relevant to the setting in that the Pandorax System is where the newly founded Grey Knights will have their first major outing, closing the Damnation Cache on Pythos (which was opened here). In M41, it'll be the reason why Abaddon wants the system conquered, going up against Grey Knights and Dark Angels.

 

...then, I also very much enjoy Annandale's takes on horror to begin with. I wish he was writing for Warhammer Horror again soon, rather than tie-in fiction for Five Rings or what have you =/

Edited January 5, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Urauloth]

I also liked Pythos. I haven't revisited it yet, but I remember appreciating the fact that it diverged from the "main plot" - I wanted that, because I thought we needed to see more of the scope of the Heresy as it moved out from Istvaan to engulf all the domains of mankind. The void battle still stands out as memorable, and I thought the friction between the Iron Warriors was a more interesting insight into their legion's character than some I've come across. There's some pretty solid spooky stuff early on as well. Overall, the bleak tone and dark ending hark back to the classic "whatever happens, you will not be missed" intro plate we all know and love. I'd go so far as to suggest it would be weakened by having its events affect the main narrative more.

[Nagashsnee]

Pythos will always suffer by being a numbered entry in the HH 'series' that has very little to do with the other entries. Time will mollify this as now every one knows that you need to look into what each HH book is about and its quality before investing time and money into them. But at the time it was very much a product of bad BL marketing and management of the HH brand/novels. Are they a series? A setting? Who knows! 

 

 

But imagine going from Scars- Strong book, focused ont he HH metaplot and a legions early role in it. To vengeful spirit- Ok book but very much tied into the HH metaplot and one of the few books focusing on Horus and his actions in the HH to Pythos- Some iron hands suffer ptsd and die. Like some other HH books its merits and quality matter allot less when people feel cheated the whole read thru.  In my mind to this day a numbered series translates to a series of books that all tie into eachother and should be read in order.

 

Allot of grief could have been avoided if the numbered series foccused on certain 'core' books, while the rest were simply ' A heresy story'.  Tho then BL could not trick gamers into buying books they otherwise would not, and i would not be haunted by having paid for 2 out of 3 of the Nick Kyme Salamander 'books' ( into the fire of the fireplace! onto the anvil of the dustbin! ).

Edited January 6, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Mjasghar]

I think phytos suffered more from being a horror style auto lose which didn’t sit with marines who should have faced pretty horrific stuff normally. 

[Moonreaper666]

On 1/7/2023 at 3:43 PM, Mjasghar said:

I think phytos suffered more from being a horror style auto lose which didn’t sit with marines who should have faced pretty horrific stuff normally. 

 

Daemonds and the Warp are two things they haven't faced before

 

Put Marines in Event Horizon and they will :cuss: their pants in fear

[Moonreaper666]

The HH retcons how many Traitor Astartes survive the Heresy and are still alive present day

 

The Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers did not fully commit to the Siege and therefore had much more Marines and thus much more geneseed to rebuild their Legions post-Heresy

[bluntblade]

I think the notion that some of the Legions actually grew larger during the Heresy than their pre-Isstvan strengths due to sped-up induction is really interesting, but within the BL books it ought to have come in sooner than the Siege of Terra. It, and the Astartes characters who have Ascended via that more brutal process, don't often get enough room to breathe. Jangsai was well handled, though. I was impressed that Wraight managed to build up a whole new POV character who parallels Shiban's early self whilst juggling everything else in Warhawk.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Marines face daemons all throughout the heresy and never run away screaming. They're just initially confused because there's an enemy that doesn't operate the same way as most other things, and they've had no information on them (unlike, say, the hrud). As soon as they figure out the best way to kill them it's just business as usual. 

 

And of course, saying more traitors survive into the eye is signature zero context/trolling. The iron warriors were used as a galaxy wide roadblock to stop guilliman, with speed bumps in each system; they also were used as the battering ram for the solar war and initial parts of the siege until perturabo left. The night lords lost a quarter of their legion strength in one battle during thramas; they lost more before that, more during their final retreat from the dark angels, even more at sotha, and then even even more when the ashen claws stomped the nostramo system and Ophion (and then also whatever losses they took during the siege). And this also doesn't cover the Scouring, which has long been described as even more devastating than the Heresy proper in terms of casualties. Yes, recruitment and legion numbers went up compared to the original lore. So did the losses, in dramatic fashion.

 

The word bearers are the exception. They didn't suffer catastrophic losses in the siege, but they were also always portrayed as being monumentally dangerous and well-organized in older 40k lore; they were still a legion, with huge numbers, and tons of resources. So them only taking losses from internal purges and calth fits, and isn't actually a retcon in terms of legion strength. Not that it saves lorgar and his lads from getting handled by corax in the warp lol.

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Marines face daemons all throughout the heresy and never run away screaming. They're just initially confused because there's an enemy that doesn't operate the same way as most other things, and they've had no information on them (unlike, say, the hrud). As soon as they figure out the best way to kill them it's just business as usual. 

 

And of course, saying more traitors survive into the eye is signature zero context/trolling. The iron warriors were used as a galaxy wide roadblock to stop guilliman, with speed bumps in each system; they also were used as the battering ram for the solar war and initial parts of the siege until perturabo left. The night lords lost a quarter of their legion strength in one battle during thramas; they lost more before that, more during their final retreat from the dark angels, even more at sotha, and then even even more when the ashen claws stomped the nostramo system and Ophion (and then also whatever losses they took during the siege). And this also doesn't cover the Scouring, which has long been described as even more devastating than the Heresy proper in terms of casualties. Yes, recruitment and legion numbers went up compared to the original lore. So did the losses, in dramatic fashion.

 

The word bearers are the exception. They didn't suffer catastrophic losses in the siege, but they were also always portrayed as being monumentally dangerous and well-organized in older 40k lore; they were still a legion, with huge numbers, and tons of resources. So them only taking losses from internal purges and calth fits, and isn't actually a retcon in terms of legion strength. Not that it saves lorgar and his lads from getting handled by corax in the warp lol.

 

 

 

In the Old Lore Lorgar and Konrad were at the Siege with the Whole Legions. Perturabo and the IW did not bailed out until the SoH did

 

The Thramas Crusade didn't stop the Night Lords from simply rebuilding and expanding their numbers in a year

 

Iron Warriors and World Eaters could have been the largest Legions if it weren't for their obssessions with attritional warfare that even the Death Guard would find insane

 

Perty now has more time and more Marines to build his Legion back

 

It's incredible that the Traitor Legions still outnumber the Loyalist 10k years later when they treat their own Marines like Cannon Fodder. Primaris aren't enough to even out the numbers

[Karhedron]

I don't think that the rapid recruitment used by the Traitor Legions was enough to allow them to exceed their pre-Heresy sizes, I think it was mostly used to ensure they still had sufficient strength for the Siege of Terra. The other thing to remember is that the new recruits were not well trained or highly experienced and tended to be used as cannon-fodder such as during the assault on Pluto during the Solar War.

 

Also the Iron Warriors took a lot of casualties in the early stages of the siege, particularly the taking of Eternity Gate. Part of the reason Perturabo pulled out of the Siege was he realised Horus had used his Legion exactly the way the Emperor did during the Great Crusade. Most of the progress made during the early stages of the Siege was paid for in Iron Warrior blood. While they withdrew in good order before Loyalist reinforcements arrived, it would be a mistake to think that they did not take massive casualties during the Siege.

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

In the Old Lore Lorgar and Konrad were at the Siege with the Whole Legions. Perturabo and the IW did not bailed out until the SoH did

 

 

 

What old lore are you talking about? Because it's been changed a number of times. The longest and most recent piece by Bill King doesn't mention the word bearers, iron warriors, alpha legion, or night lords. It doesn't mention their primarchs, and it doesn't give numbers. It doesn't mention the retreat.

 

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

The Thramas Crusade didn't stop the Night Lords from simply rebuilding and expanding their numbers in a year

 

Thramas didn't exist until the heresy novels, when ADB wrote it into being. In Prince of Crows he gutted the night lords. There was no old lore of the night lords imploding at thramas and sotha and nostramo. Nothing in the current lore has said "they get back to full strength"; I love the night lords and have read all the books that even mention them, as well as all the siege of terra books. It doesn't happen.

 

The night lords get shattered, and only appear as pirates, because they got shattered. They never recovered, and get rocked by the reformed 13th legion after curze's death for a reason. 

 

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Iron Warriors and World Eaters could have been the largest Legions if it weren't for their obssessions with attritional warfare that even the Death Guard would find insane

 

Uh, sure. Doesn't have anything to do with "now they can outnumber everything in 10000 years because they ran away". 

 

Also go read any of the chaos marine books where it talks about how rare untainted geneseed is. The iron warriors need to make deals with fabius and use weird technology to not go extinct.

 

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Perty now has more time and more Marines to build his Legion back

 

But he doesn't. Because once he ascended to being a daemon, he stops caring about his legion. Like every other daemon primarch. They play the great game now, as shown in Slaves to Darkness, the fabius series, the Ahriman series, the black legion series and lords of silence. 

 

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

It's incredible that the Traitor Legions still outnumber the Loyalist 10k years later when they treat their own Marines like Cannon Fodder. Primaris aren't enough to even out the numbers

 

Its incredible that you say that when the only answer is "we don't know". We don't know how many died on terra. We don't know how many died in the scouring. We don't know how many died in the legion wars. We don't know how effective their replenishment methods are.

 

We also don't know how many primaris there are, though the information given in dawn of fire and the great work suggest that there's a metric ton of them. I could compare fabius' statements on cultivating and implanting geneseed to cawls and draw a conclusion that cawl easily made more over 10000 years than the idiot traitors managed in the eye, while killing each other. But it would still be an educated guess. Unlike your post, which is an uneducated assertion. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Lord_Caerolion]

3 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

It's incredible that the Traitor Legions still outnumber the Loyalist 10k years later when they treat their own Marines like Cannon Fodder. Primaris aren't enough to even out the numbers

I’m just… there’s quite literally no point discussing this. You seem to be under the impression that you have the actual numbers somewhere, and just… blatantly ignore everything that doesn’t match your headcanon.

[Karhedron]

14 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

It's incredible that the Traitor Legions still outnumber the Loyalist 10k years later when they treat their own Marines like Cannon Fodder. Primaris aren't enough to even out the numbers

 

What is your evidence for this? Where are you getting that information from? Please provide something to back up this claim or stop pretending it is anything other than your personal head-canon.

[cheywood]

I don’t mean to be rude, but we all know Moonreaper doesn’t have proof and won’t engage in meaningful discussion. Personally I’m more convinced he’s trolling with every post, but either way you’re arguing with a brick wall. He’s going to continue to post objectively incorrect statements that focus on Chaos ‘winning’ because he doesn’t understand what Chaos is. At this point it’s better to ignore and move on. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

His source is the Moonreaper Special, namely that if it makes it sound like Chaos is absolutely awesome and can kill BILLIONS of people, then it’s true, and all evidence to the contrary is steadfastly ignored. 

[Moonreaper666]

15 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

His source is the Moonreaper Special, namely that if it makes it sound like Chaos is absolutely awesome and can kill BILLIONS of people, then it’s true, and all evidence to the contrary is steadfastly ignored. 

 

Issessos Genocide: HH Book Six, Retribution

 

-In 008.M31 during the Horus Heresy, a group of Alpha Legion warriors undertook a series of raids in the System which led to severe casualties. The survivors were transferred to the system's three Agri-Worlds, but were found to have been infected with an unknown algal strain that was harmless to humans but deadly to plant life. The strain spread, and within a year a Sector-wide famine erupted that killed 90 billion Imperial citizens.

 

Schism of Mars: Mechanicum by Graham McNeil

 

-The Mechanicum Glorian was destroyed by Dark Mechanicum Frigates and crashed into the Basilica of the Blessed Algorithm on Mars itself. The crash annihilated millions of square kilometers and killed billions across the planet.

 

Carnage of Morox: (Same as the Issessos Genocide/Atrocity)

 

-Fought from 009.M31 all the way to 053.M31 (into the Great Scouring), it was one of the largest confrontations between Loyalist and Traitor-aligned Imperial Army forces. Both sides sought control of the Sector capital world of Morox Excellus. Due to turbulent Warp Storms, the sector was largely isolated from the rest of the Galaxy and the war was fought with little outside interference. Despite the lack of strategic significance for the wider conflict, it was noted for its massive level of atrocity and rapid technological regression by both sides. Ultimately, 3 billion battlefield deaths were recorded

 

The world of Cthonia had 2 Billion before it was blown up

 

Solar War had Billions of people die

 

-In the three days since the first ship had breached the Elysian Gate, the battle for Uranus had spread across its orbit. The outer circles of the planet’s defences had fallen within eighteen hours of the first shots being fired, but since then the assault had slowed. Now the fight was for the hundreds of stations, moons and habitats – from the Mechanicum outpost Tau-16-1, which hung like a black needle in low orbit, to the ancient Cadum Station, its geodesic sphere pitted by millennia of dust impacts. Each of the planet’s seven moons held small clouds of their own void-stations, and untold billions of humans lived in these scattered islands of life and air

 

Butcher fleets from the World Eaters each killed Billions in their rampages: White Dwarf 478 Horus Heresy: Passage of the Angel of Death

 

-Conventional military targets - such as the mineral-rich moons of Lorthar IX or the agri-domes of Stelnar and their vast silos - were ignored. Instead the Warbands struck populous locations, where only senseless carnage could be wrought. Those worlds struck by the Butcher Fleets, were laid to waste and their populations were murdered in a frenzied rampage of destruction. The Warbands' rampages also benefited any Traitor Legions, that followed in the Butcher Fleets' wake[1a]. This tactic allowed the Word Bearers to commit the Argolian Massacres[1b] and aided the Night Lords in creating the Carrion Realms

 

The Word Bearers 'compete' with the WE Butcher Fleets to see who gets to kill the most people, causing the Argolan Massacres: Same source

 

-It began when the Sons of Lorgar targeted Systems, that were left wounded and defenseless in the wake of the destruction wrought by the World Eaters' roving Butcher Fleets. In their attacks, the Word Bearers scoured the region and found refugees cowering in numerous locations throughout the Argolian Sub-sector. This included the subterranean Kentas Hive on Ralnath and the void-docks of Theta-One-Four. These survivors are then corralled and sacrificed in dark rituals of arcane significance by the Traitor Legion. When they are done, the Word Bearers reap a death toll of such great magnitude, that the powers behind the veil began to harken the death-scream of billions echoing through the empyrean

 

Envious, the Night Lords wanted to inflict widespread carnage their own way, creating the Carrion Realms: Again, same source of Crimes Against Humanity

 

-They were first created in 12.M31, when the Night Lords' Warbands sought to take advantage of the devastation caused by the vengeful Dark Angels and rampaging World Eaters' Butcher Fleets. Worlds that had been left ravaged by either force, were then attacked and claimed by the Night Lord's Warbands. These captured worlds were then used to create the Carrion Realms, that the Warbands' Warlords ruled over. The spoils collected from their fiefdoms, then fueled the Warlords to enslave the surviving populations of Colony Worlds, such as Rhyntax and Khorbal. They would also conscript the sundered remains of their once-proud armies to launch spiteful sorties into systems, near their Carrion Realms

 

You know the worst part about these acts of carnage...?

 

They are the START of a Feedback Power-Loop that causes MORE BIGGER ATROCITIES at a FASTER RATE!!!

 

Chaos creates more Daemons and gives more power blessings to their mortal followers for every horrific, mass-carnage act they inflict!

 

These Traitors would receive more power and more Daemonic reinforcements with their First Atrocity. Each new atrocity makes them more powerful, creates MORE Daemons and rallies more Traitors under their banner. This INCENTIVIZES them AND OTHERS to commit more massacres much quicker

 

If not stop, at a VERY HEAVY cost to Imperium, they will reach CRITICAL MASS and be able to 'consume' Terra with their teeth-hordes full of blades, guns and chaos magic!

 

Wish more of these Lore-bits were made and that more of it goes to Novels, Codexes and Editions

 

Sooner the Horus Heresy has a confirmed Death Toll higher than the Yuuzhan Vong War (which killed 365 TRILLION People) the sooner people take Chaos seriously

[Nagashsnee]

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

 

Sooner the Horus Heresy has a confirmed Death Toll higher than the Yuuzhan Vong War (which killed 365 TRILLION People) the sooner people take Chaos seriously

 

Just the other day a friend of mine asked me why i don't take the threat of chaos in 30k seriously. And by golly i told him, anything up to 365 trillion dead is rookie numbers. I mean if star wars writers can type 365 trillion the least chaos BL writers could of is 365 trillion...trillion.  At this point a deathly silence fell across the GW store we were in, and as one every patron there started clapping. The store manager took of his  lanyard and placed it  around my neck and with teary eyes proclaimed me to be the REAL warhammer 40.000. 

 

Let me tell you the smile never left my face the entire unicorn ride home. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

EVERY THREAD :cuss:

[DukeLeto69]

Hope the IoM never suffers from negative population growth! Although at least there would be no state pension deficit!

Edited January 24, 2023 by DukeLeto69

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

These Traitors would receive more power and more Daemonic reinforcements with their First Atrocity. Each new atrocity makes them more powerful, creates MORE Daemons and rallies more Traitors under their banner. This INCENTIVIZES them AND OTHERS to commit more massacres much quicker

 

Except that is not how it works, in fact it is quite the opposite. Chaos is like a narcotic, the first hit gives a boost of power and the users feel like they are wielding the power of the gods. But each subsequent time it is harder and harder to reach the same high. That is why Chaos worshippers are driven to ever greater acts of excess. They are not creating a feedback loop, the emotional energy required for Chaos to manifest in the material realm requires exponentially greater effort, the longer it goes on.

 

This is a recurring theme throughout the HH series. Chaos is not simply an escalator to power. It is a literal deal with the devil that steadily consumes the soul and will of the mortals involved until they become nothing more than expressions of obsession. You can see this in several cases such as the fall of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim gets so bored on the road to daemonhood that he starts tempting people like Lucius and Fabius into taking him out, just to relieve the tedium. Horus gives himself to the gods, body and soul and return is reduced to little more than a meat-puppet for Chaos by the time of the Siege.

 

If Chaos worked the way you imply, the Heresy would have been a quick victory for the traitors. In fact it is unlikely that humanity would ever have evolved out of the Stone Age. You have to understand the fundamental point of Chaos is that it consumes the wielder. The Traitors can't simply keep ramping up the atrocities until they win as they are literally burning themselves up in what they have already unleashed.