HH 2.0 Elite of the Imperial Army: Solar Auxilia Tactica

[SkimaskMohawk]

My main confusion is why rules like brutal or breaching aren't normal USRs, or why Reinforced or Bombard aren't universal sub-types. The first two are in every army book they've released; the last two are in 2/3 of the books. They're not faction specific by any means.

 

I also really wasn't thrilled by all the weapons and special rules being lumped together at the end of the book. Call it ocd or whatever, but wading through three other factions special rules to confirm what lightning blows or the custodes armour does is not a great experience. Just put them with the faction rules or on the datasheet if they're super specific; I don't know why they decided valdor needed to have two pages dedicated to his datasheet when everything (including bonus wargear and special rules) could be on one. 

 

For actual rules oddity, I feel bad for people who get take cover and hop models with the palas' skimmer, and then get to use the far more limited antigrav on the other two hover vehicles. No cover saves or hopping models for them!

[Gorgoff]

On 11/12/2022 at 5:43 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

My main confusion is why rules like brutal or breaching aren't normal USRs, or why Reinforced or Bombard aren't universal sub-types. The first two are in every army book they've released; the last two are in 2/3 of the books. They're not faction specific by any means.

 

That is a very strange oddity indeed. One would think that they wrote the Liber books at the same time as the core rules and therefore knew which book will have which rule.

Maybe that wasn't the case after all, or they made the decision before they gave the same "unique to Book XY rule" to other books as well. As is it makes no sense at all and just confuses and annoyes the players. 

On 11/12/2022 at 5:43 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

I also really wasn't thrilled by all the weapons and special rules being lumped together at the end of the book. Call it ocd or whatever, but wading through three other factions special rules to confirm what lightning blows or the custodes armour does is not a great experience. Just put them with the faction rules or on the datasheet if they're super specific; I don't know why they decided valdor needed to have two pages dedicated to his datasheet when everything (including bonus wargear and special rules) could be on one. 

 

No index! I have no idea why they didn't put an index in their books. Especially because they did gave the core rules one.

Again very odd because they should have known that.

 

Regarding the second part I have to say that that is even more frustrating. 

I mean they did it in the past and I can't imagine that anyone has complained about the rules being directly under the units entry. 

Now we have unit entries with huuuugebempty spaces under their rules where they easily could have written some of the rules down. 

It is a mystery to me why they decided to make it this hard and annoying to find the rules. 

I blame Andy whatshisname for this. He is guilty of Newcromunda 2016 as well after all and those books were even more annoying than the Liber-aces. 

On 11/12/2022 at 5:43 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

For actual rules oddity, I feel bad for people who get take cover and hop models with the palas' skimmer, and then get to use the far more limited antigrav on the other two hover vehicles. No cover saves or hopping models for them!

Again.

Why isn't the Custodes Land Speeder not Cavalery? Makes no sense at all and is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Did they write their rules before they wrote Liber Astartes and Hereticus? It sure seems this way.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Brother Sutek]

I thought I was going crazy when I couldn't find the index! After reading the book I get it, they rewrote these so many times they gave up on the index. On the topic of the Solar I'm not sure why they took the weapons off the shuttle. It couldn't have been so broken with being able to deep strike that a minor weapon was OP. I have only seen spoiler review videos so haven't been able to get a deep read, I'm depending on others for now to get a read on this book.

[Nagashsnee]

Ok really tempted to do SA this ed so gave it some thought.

 

Big winners:

Leman Russ Vanquisher, with co auxial granting re roll to hit and the gun being str 9 ap2 brutal 2 and rocking in at a dirt cheap point cost (165 if you want to slap a lascannon on too) this tank becomes a excellent anti armor/monster/elites that can be taken in numbers. Plus with the tercio rule meaning i can roll 3 single  per heavy slot so can really go to town if desired.

Rapiers, being able to take them in tercios and rocking at 55 points per model for a barrage str 5 large blast shred gives cheap anti horde power, and can even do work vs marines thanks to shred just laying on the wounds. Pick whatever squad is clumped up and just pound away. 

Thunder bolt, 120 points, rocking 6 guns! It can be played without a single upgrade and will provide excellent fire support be at air or ground targets, also fast attack which is a slot SA struggle to use much. 

Companion squads, like what were they on when they wrote this unit? WS4, 2W, 2A, I4, built in melta bombs on every model. Squad of 10 is not ony cheap but make a solid counter attack unit and with 10 melta bombs provide excellent uses vs pretty much anything. 

Ogryns, cheap ( 120 for 3) T5 3 wounds and built in FNP with str 7 ap and rend 6+ gives another excellent counter attack unit. 

 

Losers almost every single other tank but the vanquisher ( tho plasma russ is ok) is pretty much useless. The command tank being locked to battle cannon is a sad sad joke and makes it useless. 

They took the lighting out back and buried it ( shame as i play mech and have 2 and they cant even use it and now SA wont ever want too).

200 points for a ap4 basilisk is again a bad joke. 

Malcadors, oh my poor poor malcadors, i own a infernus, its a lord of war choice that is not a superheavy vehicle, is not ap3. In an edition where 10 man lascannons teams are real just play 300 points less and tell your opponent his HQ squad loses a turn of shooting.  Normal malcadors are like leman russes but worse, worse armor, more points and the same :cuss: guns. Why pay 245 points for a malcador vanquisher when a russ vanquisher is cheaper and has better armor? 

 

So they way i see it, ultramar regiment, Main hq, companion squad, 1-2 ogryns, 6-10 rifles, 3-5 lemans ( pure single model vanquishers, 1-2 thunderbolts and as many rapier as you can get.  Is it spamming what works? Yes, is what works good enough to feel bad about it? Noooooooo. 

 

Sad truth is they are not many viable ways to deal with dreads/elite 2+ units and big units of cheap marines.  And while i am glad they choose to tone down big blasts i feel they went a bit overboard.  But what do i know i play mech for a living ( PRAISE THE THANATARS!). 

[Brofist]

Seems like the army has gaps just like mech. The design philosophy feels to be "ally in marines". Shame.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Brofist

[Nagashsnee]

36 minutes ago, Brofist said:

Seems like the army has gaps just like mech. The design philosophy feels to be "ally in marines". Shame.

 

 

I don't agree with this, for one if the design philosophy is allies then custodes are the go too choice for both mech and auxilia.  

But i don't agree, i think the design philosophy is much more rock/paper/scissors/draw. That is to say that any list will have certain list archetypes ( gunline,mass assault etc) that it is better/worse at facing.  The other major thing is i think going off the liber books that they have FAILED to make the majority of units playable, and with specific types ( dreads, 2+save) units being the rising threats makes many okish unit even more of a nono choice.

 

Ultimately leading all armies to lean on the choices ( many or few) that can deal with the popular threats, so with Auxilia for instance the Vanquisher is one of the few weapons that can reliable do some damage vs elite marines/dreads thanks str 9 ap and brutal 2, which means when i ask myself the question 'what do i do vs 3-5 dreads' it pops up, likewise what do i do vs mass elite marines be they termies or dawnbreakers etc the vanquisher pops up again. But the issue is its one of the ONLY answer's ( and again not a great one just ok) so spam.   Funnily enough the plasma russ which SHOULD be the anti termie/elite marine unit fares worse in the role as with str 7 it does not instant death ( so FNP and you need 2 wounds per dead marine) and has unreliable ap, AND costs more points.  For every plasma russ  can almost get a vanquisher AND  a rapier which is much much better, 

 

 

Mech is even worse as every single answer to every single question is thanatars and myrmidons, and thanatars FOR your myrmidons.  Which is boring and will get old fast. 

 

The main issue for Auxilia and 30k in general atm tho is the answer to the question 'what do i do vs custodes' seems to be just lose and try to do it with dignity.  

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Nagashsnee

[TheTrans]

Ok... do the rules to anyone else smack of almost fan-fiction wish listing and favoritism? 

Like I think its pretty clear the writers love their Marines and Talons, but it seems if its not them, its sort of needs to play at a massive handicap. Like Mech and Auxilia (and eventually M&C and Daemons (Maybe)) are there to be punching bags so the Marines can look, big, tough and powerful. 

And yeah 'rah rah, 30k is about marines blah blah' but it gets so boring with mirror matches, although even amongst the marines you can see some clear bias with the LA rules... but I digress... 

I think if they just added movement and reacitons into 1.0 we'd have been in a much better spot than we are now. 

[Noserenda]

I dont think its armys that got intentionally slapped, its play styles, it just so happens Mechanicum and Army really relied on those playstyles and the Talons didnt, there are still units mangled in the transition, they just arent as widespread or iconic. Like, i suspect Daemons will come out alright unless they are reliant on straight deep striking (and die in a hail of interceptions) but a mix of massed infantry and big monsters will both do well in 2nd.

Well, if they ever get around to releasing them anyhow :( 

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

I dont think its armys that got intentionally slapped, its play styles, it just so happens Mechanicum and Army really relied on those playstyles and the Talons didnt, there are still units mangled in the transition, they just arent as widespread or iconic. Like, i suspect Daemons will come out alright unless they are reliant on straight deep striking (and die in a hail of interceptions) but a mix of massed infantry and big monsters will both do well in 2nd.

Well, if they ever get around to releasing them anyhow :( 

 

Imo its both. 

 

People didn't like dealing with castellax; they were tough, with good shooting and solid melee. They took a nerf. But then you look at the contemptor, and it just surpasses anything the castellax used to do. 

 

You look at what white scars (even with khan and their combo pieces) and dark Angels can get out of jetbikes, and then what world eaters do with berserker assault, or blood Angels with sang 

 

But then you can see the swathe that the generic blast nerf took, except on some very odd exceptions that are sprinkled here and there throughout the factions. 

 

Solar aux definitely feel the consequences of the ap nerfs and basically need vanquishers to bust through the marine elites and custodes. Infantry tercios look like they can pump out tons of fire and be annoying to kill through as they essentially MSU for the points, but i don't think a lot of pre-existing solar aux players got them for the Napoleonic theme; they got them for the heavy armour, most of which...are painful to use. 

 

[Nagashsnee]

  I just dont get the feeling that this ed army lists were playtested that much.  Too many units that are next to useless and too many that are just the obvious choice.  

 

The  battlecannon is the most glaring example of this, i just cant think why i would ever ever select this weapon on a tank/knight. And i dont mean this in a WAAC way, i mean in a i like leman russes, i want leman russes for my auxilia to match theme/cool model, i have 6 variants to choose from, might as well look at rules to, and suddenly the most common russ in the lore becomes regulated to the dustheap.  But anyone who glanced at its profile could tell you it got nerfed too hard. Small blast and ap4? I just dont get it. 

[Fallen11]

7 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Like I think its pretty clear the writers love their Marines and Talons, but it seems if its not them, its sort of needs to play at a massive handicap. Like Mech and Auxilia (and eventually M&C and Daemons (Maybe)) are there to be punching bags so the Marines can look, big, tough and powerful. 

As our local custodes player who more or less just stomped us when we played him said, well, rules are good and totally fluffy, Custodes and sister of silence as in fluff, are ment to stomp you around, where is the problem?

[Nagashsnee]

28 minutes ago, Fallen11 said:

As our local custodes player who more or less just stomped us when we played him said, well, rules are good and totally fluffy, Custodes and sister of silence as in fluff, are ment to stomp you around, where is the problem?

Next time you play use 10 times more points then him and then point out that they were only 10k custodes but even small marine legions had around 100k marines.  Keep it nice and fluffy. 

[Lord Marshal]

12 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Ok... do the rules to anyone else smack of almost fan-fiction wish listing and favoritism? 

Like I think its pretty clear the writers love their Marines and Talons, but it seems if its not them, its sort of needs to play at a massive handicap. Like Mech and Auxilia (and eventually M&C and Daemons (Maybe)) are there to be punching bags so the Marines can look, big, tough and powerful. 

And yeah 'rah rah, 30k is about marines blah blah' but it gets so boring with mirror matches, although even amongst the marines you can see some clear bias with the LA rules... but I digress... 

I think if they just added movement and reacitons into 1.0 we'd have been in a much better spot than we are now. 

 

I wouldn't say it's favouritism at play per say. The SA have had a decent bit of writing put into them - there's several new units, several have been reworked, Tercio mechanics have been revamped, Combat Doctrines are entirely new, etc. I think that's far more than what most people seemed to expect (which was just a points change and stat adjustments).

 

Compare that to the Custodes who 'lost' Sisters and come off as largely the same in terms of mechanics from 1.0 and who, while powerful, mostly took nerfs to everything that wasn't Custodian Guard... which happens to be a plastic Line choice and thus gives them a disproportionate presence.

 

Where SA took a heavy blow is from so much of the game's AP being scaled back, in an edition which doubles down on the AP2 Arms Race and so the list feels far more limiting. I don't think it's that the writers dislike SA, but it's the questionable internal balance rearing it's head in an army which always had somewhat limited options.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[oldhat]

Here is a ZM list I am tinkering with - which to be honest, I am going off rules reviews online, so I am sure I am missing some things.

 

Solar Pattern Cohort

 

HQ:
Legate Marshal
Paragon Blade, AA, Iron Halo, Cyber-Familiar
[150]

 

Elites:
(2) Medicae Section
[30]

 

(3) Charonite Ogryn Section
[120]

 

(3) Charonite Ogryn Section
[120]

 

Troops:
Veletaris Tercio #1

(6) Command Section
Command Vox, Vexilla
[113]

 

(10) Vanguard Section
Vox Interlock, Heavy Void Armor
[105]

 

(12) Storm Section (Medicae)
Vox Interlock, Storm Axes
Heavy Void Armor & Power Fist
[191]

 

Veletaris Tercio #2

(10) Vanguard Section
Vox Interlock, Heavy Void Armor
[105]

 

(12) Storm Section (Medicae)
Vox Interlock, Storm Axes
Heavy Void Armor & Power Fist
[191]

 

(12) Storm Section
Vox Interlock, Volkites
Heavy Void Armor
[121]

 

[1246]

 

Of course, this is all brainstorming right now - so I am not stuck on anything particularly. Though I love the Solar Cohort, since Veletaris seem like the most bang for the buck (literally and in game).

 

Straight forward list - lots of Axes to rush in after the Rotors pin units. Volkite squad is there for some non-Rotor shootiness. Medics run with the Axe squads to give them a very marginal boost in durability (for the price, why not?) and they can, in theory, fight TEQ squads but with Unwieldy it'll be at best a trade, but at worst, a stomping of my unit before it can swing, so that is a concern. S6 AP2 with MS6+ though is pretty good on the off chance they do get to swing at full capacity. The Legate is kitted for combat, so whichever squad I put him in he can at least do some work as Paragon Blades do. Then there are the Ogryn that are there to target elite MEQ, because I don't think Rending 6+ is super reliable for TEQ hunting. They should do that well enough with the S7 AP3 weapons, provided the Sarge doesn't tank all the hits. Command Squad is there mostly for the Vox, which bumps the Squads to Ld8. Not 100% sold on this, to be honest - it is a lot of investment for a +1Ld bump.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? How long do you think we'll wait before we see those Rotor Squads?

[Brother Sutek]

I don't care if it's good or not two squads of ogryn is something I'd like to see on the field!

[TheTrans]

My issue with the Cohorts are that half of them just give us units back that where removed and people go 'oh wow so much thought was put into them!

 

Solar Cohorts: Returns Veletari back to scoring troops (which they where in 1.0).

Ultramar: Eqiuvalent of a no-thought legion rule

Reborn Cohorts: Low-Effort legion-ish rule

Armoured Fist Pattern: Replaces our lost Tank HQ..in a much more restrictive fashion

Penal/Feral Pattern: the 'we gave you Militia & Cults in the Solar Aux List, you're welcome' offerings

Siege Pattern: We gave you nuncio-voxs back...kind of

Iron Pattern: Given back Thallax and Castellax that where removed. 

 

4/8 Return a removed unit/wargear

2/8 Will be used as an excuse for why Milia&Cult get squatted 

2/8 Low-Effort Legion Analogue rules.

 

They didn't include any new warlord traits or anything fun like that, nor a special reaction. The tercio rule is essentially just a reaction rule and saying anything bought in a single force org can act as a big squad for reactions..while useful, didn't take a heap of thought to nut out. 

 

 

 

 

[Mandragola]

I think I agree that overall the SA list now feels awkward to make an army out of. It's like "well we have these models so let's make rules for them" and not "what would be a cool army list that would be interesting to play".

 

I put a bit of thought into making an allied detachment using solar pattern, basically because I have an unpainted arvus lighter I got years ago. But I don't have any SA to go in it and it's terrible. I also had an unpainted Kharon pattern Acquisitor and a handful of SoS, so I'm doing an allied detachment of them instead.

 

Right now it's a bit hard to locate the "selling point" of a SA army. The Ultramar list is maybe the most interesting, in that it basically employs napoleonic-era tactics in a sci-fi setting. An army would cost enormous amounts though. I thought about using something like the new Kasrkin as stand-ins but really that wouldn't be a lot cheaper. They would look cool as special ops types to support my Raven Guard though and I could probably give them volkites and rotor cannons from the marine special weapon set fairly easily..

[SkimaskMohawk]

20 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Right now it's a bit hard to locate the "selling point" of a SA army. The Ultramar list is maybe the most interesting, in that it basically employs napoleonic-era tactics in a sci-fi setting. An army would cost enormous amounts though.

 

Yeah the ultramar doctrine is basically doubling down on their unique mechanic, and is the first push to mass infantry that 2nd has really done. 

 

The cost is definitely ruinous, as it's 167 CAD for a las rifle section. I'm sure there's STLs out there to offer some sort of alternative; my buddy found a really nice, 1 piece, tech thrall file and charges like $15 for 20. There's also stuff like the eisenkern stormtroopers where you get 20 models for what I assume is 47 USD.

 

So let's say you make an ultramar cohort for an economical cost. You have an enormous amount of bodies; 240 for ~1100 and they're all ranked up to take advantage of the doctrine and formation rules. And then you realize that the solar aux are receiving blasts like it's still 1st ed; outside of the rapier, every large blast is ap4 and most are str 6 to remove any fnp you may have brought. Now maybe grinding through 12 units of 20 isn't that fun, and it is actually balanced in that you need to spend 215 on an arquitor or 225 on two Scorpii to kill 90 points of solar aux. But the weapons getting nerfed so that marine players get to have fun and not have their models scooped, while solar aux are told that that's the gameplay loop feels off to me.

 

That being said, I'm considering some eisenkern as allies to my death guard. Fits the pseudo Germanic look, infantry to die in droves fits with the attrition style, and you do get a ton of bodies to sit around on your backfield for the points.

 

[Brother Sutek]

Well at least at this point GW saved me the money for buying the five Dracoasian that I wanted to add to the army. I was going to add an Arvus as well but losing the one gun it had makes it even weaker than it was and that was really weak. From what I've seen so far it feels like rapiers and Aurox and then tons of bodies is the way to go. I don't mind that per say but I was hoping to not have to change that much from last edition, losing my field artillery due to it being so much worse is painful.

[Sparika]

I am looking at the list and rules for Solar Auxilia, and more precisely at the Tactical HQ Tercio.

I have a 20-man rifle squad and I would like to increase the body count. However, the morale for the base squad is low. So I am interested in using command radio to increase that morale value.

That when the Tactical HQ Tercio enters. Its rules are nice and full of customization possibilities. Obviously, it can be setup as per the FW Solar Auxilia Tactical Command.

But given the available models, it would be difficult to increase the model number to 10 as there is no other source of "heavy suits".

An alternative is to build it as a HQ rifle squad. The tercio has lasrifle and standard suit by default after all so it would be easy to get a 10 man squad with a command radio and morale 9.

But in order to do get such squad, I would need to buy a 20-man rifle squad and then comes the problem... What to do with those other 10 rifleman as I would be missing a node radio.

For sure I could try convert, and actually I am only missing one radio bits to make that squad. But I find it surprising given recent GW behavior that the Solar Auxilia list and more particularly HQ sections have a lot more options than what is possible with the Forgeworld models.

[Cactus]

Could you use a Veletaria storm section as a source of heavy suited troopers? One of those and two tactical HQ sections could be split 2x10. I have no idea if the weapons are suitable though. I guess then you would also need a second rifle tercio.

[Sparika]

That's also something I find strange about the list. The tactical HQ section has access to volkyte charger so you could think that veletaris storm sections are a good match. But the veletaris have a reinforced spacesuit (4+, heavy) while the HQ section only has access to the normal spacesuit (4+). Even more surprising, only the captain/marshal has access to the heavy spacesuit (3+, heavy) while clearly the model from the tactical command squad all have the same suit as the marshal.

 

Given the disconnect between rules and models compared to the usual GW, I'm not sure what to expect.

1- Just that rules and models are disconnected?

2- Solar Auxilia rules are meant for more than spacesuit auxilia? After all the cardgame has "cadian" artwork tagged as Solar Auxilia.

3- New models in the future?

#3 would be awesome!

Looking at the Tempestus Scions, it seems to me that the Solar Auxilia list may be designed as the union of available Tempestus Scions and Solar Aux. models. If you count the scions armour as a spacesuit (4+) and their upgraded lasgun as a solar auxilia lasrifle (ryfle laser in french) you can build all options (except the volkite charger) for tactical HQ, line HQ, artillery HQ, and rifle sections with the scions kit.

Anyway, since this is a tactica thread.

With 40 Rifleman from FW, I could go for a 5 or 10 tactical HQ squad for the leadership and then a 20 rifleman squad with radio to use the leadership. Additional squad would come up with the node radio and also benefits from the leadership of the HQ section. 

But ultimately, I would be left with 10-15 rifleman. What do you think of their value without any upgrade? After all they still have line so they could go on a low risk objective or just be in the middle of the fight as they would not be worth to be shotted at. :D

Similarly, what to do with a line HQ section? They don't bring anything that the rifle section cannot do already...

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Sparika

[Brother Sutek]

If they are line then there is value even as only ten to have backup objective grabbers. I still need the book so can only give general opinion but other than my Warcrimes Dark Angels list that I'm working on, every army needs something to hold objectives. With our units being so easily killed  extra bodies seem extra important.  If that doesn't work puck up a few 3rd party rapier and us them as crew?

[Mandragola]

If I make a SA allied detachment it’ll be using the new Kasrkin, not the SA models. Those have a distinct style that works as void fighters and makes no sense at all on “land”. I won’t save much money though as Kasrkin will (I assume) be £35 a box. I’ll then give them volkites and rotor cannons from marines. 
 

The Line HQ sections are an example of the problem with this list. There are no models for them and they don’t really give you anything. They could have let you just upgrade the sergeant of one of your squads to a junior officer of some sort instead and then you could have actually built the unit. 
 

the good stuff in this list is the Leman Russ vanquisher (and annihillator till it gets FAQd) and the superheavy. 

[Valkyrion]

Could a basilisk list not take players by surprise a bit?

I know they aren't great, but 9 basilisks at 1800 points is putting out a lot of pie plates, so hits a lot of models, with a potentially more accurate scatter. Shred allows you to reroll a (normally) instant deathing S9 attack, so whilst it's only AP4 each failed save is a dead Terminator or Veteran equivalent, plus only one failed save is needed to force pinning. S9 ordnance is also capably glancing every unshielded vehicle too, I think. And you've got 9 of them! 

(Or medusas, if you've got the £75 per model instead of the £35 basilisk.)

 

It won't win any tournaments, but as a bit of a wildcard list it might be fun?