HH 2.0 Elite of the Imperial Army: Solar Auxilia Tactica

[The Scorpion]

Don't Medusas do the job better?

[Valkyrion]

Yes, but there's no plastic medusa model, so unless you're willing to proxy Basilisks for Medusas then £675 for 9 medusas is far worse than £315 for 9 basilisks!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Any heavy skew list can be a wild card and take people by surprise for sure. 

 

The basilisk can definitely do everything you mention, but the cracks show against any Heavy unit or multiwound unit that they can't instant death. The same amount of points of rapiers with flame rounds does average more failed saves, so that and the sheer amount of rapiers you can get via tercios might be a legitimate option considering what happened to most of the russes. Like you can get 18 laser rapiers for ~1100, without dipping into any cohorts. That's...not bad, basically what that many lascannons cost from heavy support squads, plus they're twinlinked; unfortunately it kind of pits the nail in the coffin for tanks as a source of output.

 

 

[Mandragola]

I guess the issue I have with a list like that is that it’s expensive and not much fun to paint or to play, with or against. And it’s also incredibly bad if you come up against someone who can get to you fast. You’d win some games and lose others but not really because of decisions you or your opponent made at the table.

 

When I’m thinking about armies those are things I want to be sure of before the start. If it’s not all going to be fun (and not even good as a WAAC list), why bother?

[Lord Marshal]

20 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Yes, but there's no plastic medusa model, so unless you're willing to proxy Basilisks for Medusas then £675 for 9 medusas is far worse than £315 for 9 basilisks!

 

Artillery was unfun to play against last edition. It's still unfun this edition, but with the added bonus that it's not great.

 

If you're adamant about going plastic you might as well put that money into Leman Russ Vanquishers. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

55 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I guess the issue I have with a list like that is that it’s expensive and not much fun to paint or to play, with or against. And it’s also incredibly bad if you come up against someone who can get to you fast. You’d win some games and lose others but not really because of decisions you or your opponent made at the table.

 

When I’m thinking about armies those are things I want to be sure of before the start. If it’s not all going to be fun (and not even good as a WAAC list), why bother?

 

I think one of the problems with SA in general is that the cost and "incredibly bad if they get to you fast" factors are just inherent. They're a gunline mass amount of model army; either you have a huge amount of infantry and support or a huge amount of tanks, or a combination of the two.  You can get ~360 infantry, 18 rapiers and a tank in 3000; unless you take some overpriced superheavies/barrage tanks (I.e. bad units) you're playing the spam game pretty much no matter what. 

 

And that's before the whole power level discussion; if you want to cut through the 2+, or feel no pains, or heavier armour you inevitably need an amount of those tanks or rapiers. 

[Brother Sutek]

21 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I think one of the problems with SA in general is that the cost and "incredibly bad if they get to you fast" factors are just inherent. They're a gunline mass amount of model army; either you have a huge amount of infantry and support or a huge amount of tanks, or a combination of the two.  You can get ~360 infantry, 18 rapiers and a tank in 3000; unless you take some overpriced superheavies/barrage tanks (I.e. bad units) you're playing the spam game pretty much no matter what. 

 

And that's before the whole power level discussion; if you want to cut through the 2+, or feel no pains, or heavier armour you inevitably need an amount of those tanks or rapiers. 

I had already wanted a bunch of rapier last edition and the changing of artillery just made me want more of them and less arty. Not planning on 18 but at least nine. Still don't have to book and I'm just basic planning.

[Lord Marshal]

Well the Legacies PDF is out.

 

Carnodons are as cheap and interesting as usual. Keeping them at 65/70 with the free Volkite Caliver and Culverin comes to 200pts for three. That's 36 shots Str 6, BS3 at 30" rather than 40 shots Str 5 BS4 at 15" from a full Veletaris squad at 170 (before transport). They're also not going to get melted by Return Fire the way Veletaris most often are. Obviously if you're running Solar Doctrine you're probably bringing them for Line anyway, but with other Doctrines I can definitely see the case for running Carnodons instead - particularly as they're Fast Attack.

 

Thunderer seems like a, "do you like the model"? situation.

 

Destroyer is an overcosted Laser Destroyer with 1 less shot, BS3 and Gets Hot. Not great when we have Vanquishers doing the same job for cheaper and longer range.

 

Everything else looks atrocious. The Baneblade variants being the same cost as the Legiones versions but BS3 is... yeah. Due to the way the Lord of War Detachment rules work you're actually better bringing a Marine one since they are identical in all ways except that.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Nagashsnee]

I had played a couple of games using my IG, i was testing out some lists, i was really trying to make the best of things, planning it out before i drop the kinda cash they are asking for. But the legacy document really took the wind out of my sails. I dont want overpowered units, i just want units that are not a detriment to the gaming experience. The legacy document has unit after unit after unit that if i saw my oponent put on the board i would think 'well at least it will be quick AND easy'.

 

Lets take the macharius tank, 300 point superheavy vehicle with a grand total of one ap4 SMALL blast.  Vanquisher gun is great, it has twin linked! Like all the normal rushes have coaxial which for is better then twin linked. Like why not just play 2X armour 14 front leman russ vanquishers?  They are better in every way. The poor poor vulkan mega bolter is 10 shots at bs3 with a breaching of 6+, 24 range, IT COSTS MORE POINTS THEN THE OTHER TWO. And its not the the macharius, its unit after unit after unit. 

 

Again and again the same story, too many points for what you get, and in most cases what you get aint much.  I dont understand why things like the baneblade cannon are as bad as they are, its a 750 point superheavy whose main gun will barely kill 2 marines at best. Like i could see them making them all weaker AND cheaper, or keep them super killy and slap the 700+ point cost. But insane points, weird nerfs ( armor 13 baneblade?) and generally weak guns.

 

Then the weird choices, the vulkan on the macharius is twin linked but its big baneblade brother ( stormlord) is not....what? Its the same gun but bigger? Oh wait they change names so its now different guns one is a bolt cannon and is ap4 and twin linked the other is a mega bolter and ap3 but not. But why? WHY? The forge world website sells it as a macharius with a MEGA BOLTER. Why are you pulling this utter grox waste? 

 

I honestly dont know, but it has killed any desire to go ahead with my planned SA auxilia. They are officially a second class army and if they ever did playtest these rules they need to fire their playtesters or rules writers ( if they ignore the play test results) yesterday. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea the carnodon is basically the one good unit in the entire thing. You look at it and think "yea, it's cheap enough that I can mount whatever weapons on it"; a knockoff annihilator is 110 with the full squad clocking in at 320. A little weird they don't have tercio, or the fast subtype, but the las lets them not worry too much.

 

But then you look at the rest of the units. Here's the one that made me laugh the most: the Praetor. 650 for two heavy bolters and a barrage str 7 AP 4 large blast. It has pinning and rending 6+. It's sooooooo bad lol. 

[The Scorpion]

How does a single Carnodon compare to a 5 man HSS with lascannons?

 

Is the price and mobility enough to make it worth it?

[Brother Sutek]

The fact that most of the main battle cannons are ap4 is a joke. None of these will help me hold the line against power armour units.

[SkimaskMohawk]

21 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

How does a single Carnodon compare to a 5 man HSS with lascannons?

 

Is the price and mobility enough to make it worth it?

 Kinda poorly. 5 las heavy support are 150 and a 3 las bs 3 tank is 110. But, the rapier is kinda the main las platform imo, and for 180 you get 6 twinlinked bs 3 shots with exoshock. More reliable output, more chance for damage, harder to stop the output.

 

The carnodon would be theoretical support if you maxed out the HS slot and still wanted more lascannons.

Edited December 11, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Nagashsnee]

Carnadon shines with volkites 70/65 for 13 str 6 shots is solid. Plonk 2 for 135 points behind some cover and blast away cheap and cheerful.

Min max you could leave the turret a multilaser to go up to 14 shots at str6 4 of which are twink linked. 

[TheTrans]

It seems pretty clear that if it isn't custodes or Marines...the designers don't really want you on an even playing field. They just want some dead horses they can beat so the marines/custodes can feel like big tough bros... 

 

[Nagashsnee]

9 hours ago, TheTrans said:

It seems pretty clear that if it isn't custodes or Marines...the designers don't really want you on an even playing field. They just want some dead horses they can beat so the marines/custodes can feel like big tough bros... 

 

Nah mate, both the Mech and SA can make some pretty strong lists and can go toe to toe with marines ( custodes are playing a different game tho). Its just that you have to ignore 2/3 of their units to do so.   The blast nerf is in every army and while marines benefit most from them this was done more as a design shift then a marine benifit.

 

I simply think the non marines got very little effort put into them which resulted in poorly balanced ( both internally and externally) army lists, and in the case of SA tanks who live and die by blasts this lack of effort and thought simply got 99% of them shafted. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Nagashsnee

[oatyn1]

I had a chance to wheel out a 2.0 version of a 3k veletaris-focused mechanised infantry list that used to be pretty successful in 1.0. Played against Eskaton Dark Angels which had a lot of good anti-tank across the army (2x castaferrum with 2xGravis Lascannon [GL], 2 x Contemptors with GLs, Spartan, Land Raider, Sicaran Venator...)

 

Key highlights - 

Dracosans are not as durable as they used to be because lascannons are much much better at popping AV13 now that they have sunder. Think I lost 4 of them by T2. Flare shields on all seems better than one extra unit+Draco. Reinforced is nice though. 

Stormhammer is really uninspiring now without lascannons (and probably just not worth the points)

Leman Russ Vanquishers, even solo are legit. Vanquisher cannon with co-axial is just really good and popped the LR almost single-handedly. Even though the Command Tank in the Armoured Tercio can only have the Battle Cannon, I think it may be cool/worth it to take the flare shield + cognis signum. I make that plus 2 vanquishers in a strike squadron < 500 points and probably will STILL kill more infantry than both the stormhammer cannon and the small blast battle cannon from the Stormhammer... :-P

I LOVE the heavy flamer Vanguard squad options - they are dirt cheap and expendable - in the Solar cohort doctrine I can run them up at objectives to sacrifice them to hose objective campers, I managed to catch a big tac squad fairly bunched up with c. 70 wounds in one round of shooting.

Vox across the board should probably be default - mass LD10 is still really solid. 

Mass Companions with Meltabombs <3  

I kept forgetting that I paid for Heavy void armour - probably is worthwhile just like AA for Marines

 

Overall - think the army list (options in the book) are slimmer and weaker than before, but I don't really mind because I think Solar were too pushed in 1.0 anyways. If we wanted to be competitive/WACC I think doubling down on the Heavy Support Slots (rapiers, Leman Russ) to make a gunline is probably the way to go. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by oatyn1

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:08 PM, The Scorpion said:

Typo gives autocannon & twin-liked las Russes two gravis guns instead of one.

 

They are both put of production.

 

"Most devilish Seymour "

The las was promptly faqd, but at least you get 6 twinlinked autocannon shots still. Not sure how good that actually is in the grand scheme of things though.

 

2 hours ago, oatyn1 said:

I had a chance to wheel out a 2.0 version of a 3k veletaris-focused mechanised infantry list that used to be pretty successful in 1.0. Played against Eskaton Dark Angels which had a lot of good anti-tank across the army (2x castaferrum with 2xGravis Lascannon [GL], 2 x Contemptors with GLs, Spartan, Land Raider, Sicaran Venator...)

 

Key highlights - 

Dracosans are not as durable as they used to be because lascannons are much much better at popping AV13 now that they have sunder. Think I lost 4 of them by T2. Flare shields on all seems better than one extra unit+Draco. Reinforced is nice though. 

Stormhammer is really uninspiring now without lascannons (and probably just not worth the points)

Leman Russ Vanquishers, even solo are legit. Vanquisher cannon with co-axial is just really good and popped the LR almost single-handedly. Even though the Command Tank in the Armoured Tercio can only have the Battle Cannon, I think it may be cool/worth it to take the flare shield + cognis signum. I make that plus 2 vanquishers in a strike squadron < 500 points and probably will STILL kill more infantry than both the stormhammer cannon and the small blast battle cannon from the Stormhammer... :-P

I LOVE the heavy flamer Vanguard squad options - they are dirt cheap and expendable - in the Solar cohort doctrine I can run them up at objectives to sacrifice them to hose objective campers, I managed to catch a big tac squad fairly bunched up with c. 70 wounds in one round of shooting.

Vox across the board should probably be default - mass LD10 is still really solid. 

Mass Companions with Meltabombs <3  

I kept forgetting that I paid for Heavy void armour - probably is worthwhile just like AA for Marines

 

Overall - think the army list (options in the book) are slimmer and weaker than before, but I don't really mind because I think Solar were too pushed in 1.0 anyways. If we wanted to be competitive/WACC I think doubling down on the Heavy Support Slots (rapiers, Leman Russ) to make a gunline is probably the way to go. 

 

Sounds really interesting. You can definitely make a horde of infantry, even with a lot of veltaris. You just gotta avoid the point sinks that are most tanks and you're golden. Having said that, idk if 225 for the Russ command tank is worth it at all; flare shields are good, but only on units your opponent wants to kill. A bs 4 battle cannon isn't really that imo.

[The Scorpion]

What about the Carnodon?

Is it a points sink too?

[oatyn1]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:31 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

The las was promptly faqd, but at least you get 6 twinlinked autocannon shots still. Not sure how good that actually is in the grand scheme of things though.

 

 

Sounds really interesting. You can definitely make a horde of infantry, even with a lot of veltaris. You just gotta avoid the point sinks that are most tanks and you're golden. Having said that, idk if 225 for the Russ command tank is worth it at all; flare shields are good, but only on units your opponent wants to kill. A bs 4 battle cannon isn't really that imo.

I agree with the general point- lots of bodies fewer tanks is likely better (caveat that for sheer space reasons I also don’t think 100% infantry will work for line of sight reasons)

 

When it comes to the command tank - I agree that the points cost is high for the command tank, but I believe it could be worthwhile regardless- he will shield his 2 vanquisher buddies which should leave them almost always ‘on’ - 4 BS5 refillable S10 AP2 Armourbane shots a turn is no joke. A single Leman Russ Vanquisher did a lot of work, the combo of 2 plus the command tank > any super heavy in the arsenal I think. Will try it and report back 

[SkimaskMohawk]

14 minutes ago, oatyn1 said:

I agree with the general point- lots of bodies fewer tanks is likely better (caveat that for sheer space reasons I also don’t think 100% infantry will work for line of sight reasons)

 

When it comes to the command tank - I agree that the points cost is high for the command tank, but I believe it could be worthwhile regardless- he will shield his 2 vanquisher buddies which should leave them almost always ‘on’ - 4 BS5 refillable S10 AP2 Armourbane shots a turn is no joke. A single Leman Russ Vanquisher did a lot of work, the combo of 2 plus the command tank > any super heavy in the arsenal I think. Will try it and report back 

 

Feel like I'm missing some things. The command tank would only be able to "shield" by blocking LOS as the command section is only the single tank. You'll probably still be able to see their turrets, so it's only really providing a 5+ cover save. Also the vanquisher russ is 2 bs3, S9 ap 2, sunder, brutal 2. Its very good, you can kill almost every target in the game with enough, but its not what you wrote.

 

7 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

What about the Carnodon?

Is it a points sink too?

 

Kinda? If youre spending points on them without taking the rapiers or russes, ya. But theyre good filler after you've made the rest of the list and have points left over.

[oatyn1]

23 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Feel like I'm missing some things. The command tank would only be able to "shield" by blocking LOS as the command section is only the single tank. You'll probably still be able to see their turrets, so it's only really providing a 5+ cover save. Also the vanquisher russ is 2 bs3, S9 ap 2, sunder, brutal 2. Its very good, you can kill almost every target in the game with enough, but its not what you wrote.

 

 

Kinda? If youre spending points on them without taking the rapiers or russes, ya. But theyre good filler after you've made the rest of the list and have points left over.

Oops my bad re Vanquisher profile, you are right! I was looking at other profiles and was mixing up with the Kratos’ gun and this. (As you say, still good with S9 AP2 Sunder, Brutal)
 

To clarify the rules for the command tank - it must join another unit in the Tercio, per the Solar Auxilia Command Tank Special Rule. This is what turns on the cognis signum, giving the leman russ vanquishers BS +1 to BS4 (not BS5 - my mistake earlier). Since the command tank is now part of the unit, the squadron rules allow you to ensure the command tank soaks up the incoming fire first (on the flare shield to boot hopefully) 

 

 

as an aside, the other cognis signum available to solar aux in the artillery tercio doesn’t seem to work like we think RAW- the command squad isn’t a unit with the rapiers so can’t confer the bonus per the cognis signum wargear rules!

23 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Why the switch to the 1st edition tactics thread btw? 

Oops I didn’t realise - maybe will switch over to that thread! Thanks!

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 minutes ago, oatyn1 said:

Oops my bad re Vanquisher profile, you are right! I was looking at other profiles and was mixing up with the Kratos’ gun and this. (As you say, still good with S9 AP2 Sunder, Brutal)
 

To clarify the rules for the command tank - it must join another unit in the Tercio, per the Solar Auxilia Command Tank Special Rule. This is what turns on the cognis signum, giving the leman russ vanquishers BS +1 to BS4 (not BS5 - my mistake earlier). Since the command tank is now part of the unit, the squadron rules allow you to ensure the command tank soaks up the incoming fire first (on the flare shield to boot hopefully) 

 

 

as an aside, the other cognis signum available to solar aux in the artillery tercio doesn’t seem to work like we think RAW- the command squad isn’t a unit with the rapiers so can’t confer the bonus per the cognis signum wargear rules!

Oops I didn’t realise - maybe will switch over to that thread! Thanks!

 

 

Ah the curse of 2nds rules layout strikes again. I completely missed the command tank stuff and it definitely makes the option a lot better! Makes the turret being stuck on the battle cannon a positive if you're always giving the BS boost.

 

 

[Brother Sutek]

13 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Ah the curse of 2nds rules layout strikes again. I completely missed the command tank stuff and it definitely makes the option a lot better! Makes the turret being stuck on the battle cannon a positive if you're always giving the BS boost.

 

 

You have no idea how many times I've missed things in the new rules due to how things are set up! One of many reasons I come here to learn things.

[TheTrans]

So anyone done anything fun with Solar Aux after the release, or is it all of us just looking at a gutted list and army trying out how to compete in someway against the power armoured hordes that still kill mooks with just as much reckless abandon as 1.0?