The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[DarkChaplain]

Quote

Running time 18 hours and 33 minutes (approx).

 

Guess I'd better make room next weekend. This audiobook is going to take a while.

[Vazzy]

I’m truly sorry y’all aren’t enjoying it. I am almost done but i adore this book. The spoiler snippets here are doing the book a grave disservice. I always learn new words when read Abnett and I love that. It makes his writing feel so much richer to me. 
 

Multiple times Abnett had had me speechless, and there’s a paragraph that literally had me groaning with how well the foreshadowing had been. 
 

This book is everything I wanted from the Siege and makes EoE and every other non Saturnian novel look drab in comparison. 
 

HOWEVER. Many frater here are going to hate it and say it was a waste and nothing happens or that Abnett is doing Abnett things.  

 

This book, to me, solidifies Abnett as the best of BL. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Vazzy

[StrangerOrders]

Honestly, the spoilers are largely appealing to me.

 

Abnett has his flaws, namely his addiction to cramming in weird random snippets no one else in interested, but his character work is usually amazing.

 

Which is what I want from the book that will deal with the climax of the Siege. 

 

So all wins for me, if the spoilers are put in a context to enable the great character work I know he can do.

[Gongsun Zan]

No major plot spoilers, just a comment on the structure of the book.

 

Spoiler

It's clear that this is very much half a book, and it just ends on abrupt note. I really hope GW does not drag out the release of part 2, because this really doesn't feel like a story that should have been split up. 

 

[Alpharius902]

Ok, calling it a night for working on this essay, more spoilers

Spoiler

• Upon Malcador's ascenscion to the Throne, he sent out specifically encoded messages to each of his Chosen of imperatives to follow. These range from ordering the bombardment of the Vengeful Spirit to cease to the confiscation of Basilo Fo's bioalchemical virus
• The Emperor is able to use his power to enhance the strength of the Custodes, allowing them to see past the deceptions of the warp
• The surviving loyalist Titans are now fighting against Traitor Engines as well as daemons large enough to rival their size
• Many of the Custodes are beginning to develop independent thoughts, from Amon refusing to hand over Fo's virus to the Wardens of the Vaults of Rython due to lack of official documentation to Valdor having the Custodes equivalent of a panic attack (read as a barely perceptiable pulse rate change and breathing pattern) not being able to predict Horus' strategy
• One of the themes of this novel is "the Dark King," with the Night Lords building skull thrones in his honor, and his card appearing in the Emperor's Tarot. It signifies the birth of a new god
• Zahariel was one of the Dark Angels that joined Corswain on his flight to Terra. He and his Mystai agents plan to use the Ouroboros as a way to reignite the Astronomican's Light. However, this plan is cut short when a host of the Death Guard under Typhus shows up to reconquer the Mountain (Vorx gets a namedrop here). Zahariel puts on the silver mask of the Lord Cypher to rally the I Legion against their hated foe
• The novel ends with Loken (who's been teleporting across the Palace due the influence of the warp) stepping through a portal onto the Vengeful Spirit

 

[tgcleric]

2 hours ago, Vazzy said:

I’m truly sorry y’all aren’t enjoying it. I am almost done but i adore this book. The spoiler snippets here are doing the book a grave disservice. I always learn new words when read Abnett and I love that. It makes his writing feel so much richer to me. 
 

Multiple times Abnett had had me speechless, and there’s a paragraph that literally had me groaning with how well the foreshadowing had been. 
 

This book is everything I wanted from the Siege and makes EoE and every other non Saturnian novel look drab in comparison. 
 

HOWEVER. Many frater here are going to hate it and say it was a waste and nothing happens or that Abnett is doing Abnett things.  

 

This book, to me, solidifies Abnett as the best of BL. 

First comment here. 

 

Spent the last 3 years reading all of Horus Heresy and now half way through Saturnine.

 

It's not even close. I love ABD and Wraights books as well. But even those are just wonderful warhammer books. 

 

Abnett writes good books. Period. He's at a different level. I've gotten friends just to read Horus Rising and Xenos who have no interest in warhammer and just like Sci fi. 

 

Almost every chapter of Saturnine has a sequence that does more rich character work, interesting conflict and drama, and just quality prose than entire books. 

 

The chapter where the soldiers describe their names, ranks and army identification was "brackets" and the only thing they have to call their own. And spend the time to continually use them, even face to face with an astartes. More beautiful and astute observation of the on the ground soldiers than all 3 precious siege books in their entirety. 

 

That first conversation with Dorn and Sindermann! I gave it to my cowriter to just read because it's a beautifully constructed conversation. You don't need to even know anything about the two characters and you come away having a very good picture of who they are, their psyche, their humor, personality.

 

:cuss:. Most BL books even if you think you know the characters, a scene will be full of 6 identical sounding and acting people. 

 

Hell, even when he does a bolter porn moment, and has to find yet another way to describe a series of people dying, something I've read approx 500 times in the HH, be still finds some clever framing device, like punctuating the the final actions of an astarted with his prayer of "for my lord", "for my lord" until it takes on a tragic ironic meaning in the end. 

 

Anyways. Whenever I read folks complain about abnett for his flexible or "inaccurate" lore or whatever, I roll my eyes. He's the only reason I've read over 100 of these books now (been reading 40k during these years as well). I don't care how he ends the series. I just want him to do it. Not a single person picked up what he laid down with Horus Rising. Hell, I don't care if someone else kills the emperor and horus ends up being xenos clone or some :cuss:. Cause I'm more interested in the story that abnett is telling than whatever the "lore" was 30 years ago to sell duplicates of plastic toys. 

 

Very excited for this book. Even with loving Master of Mankind and Wraights Scars books, the last 30 novels have been such a drag. And 5 pages into Saturine it was clear why. Abnett is just far and away the best storyteller they have. 

 

He doesn't need warhammer. We're lucky to have him.

 

[Nagashsnee]

6 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

I just want him to do it. Not a single person picked up what he laid down with Horus Rising. Hell, I don't care if someone else kills the emperor and horus ends up being xenos clone or some :cuss:. Cause I'm more interested in the story that abnett is telling than whatever the "lore" was 30 years ago to sell duplicates of plastic toys. 

 

 

 

He doesn't need warhammer. We're lucky to have him.

 

And thus any actual discission on the book is rendered moot. Why even read it? Just tell yourself it was perfect and hand him a 20, save everyone some time and effort.  

 

I am 2/3 of the way thru the book, it is better then i expected. But it has issues. 

 

Spoiler

While i will type up a full review in time, for those also reading. GMan is stated as 9 hours away, but this is followed up by him being lost and unable to find terra due to the astronomicon still being down.

 

So what is he 9 hours away from ? If its sol then he knows where it is and has calculated eta so he aint lost. If its not the sol system then where is he going to end up in 9 hours? Is it supose go be he is lost but the beacon ges lit in the near future and his message is from there being time distorted by the warp?  

 

Also 9 hours from the sol system means days from terra, 9 hours from terra means he is already in the system?  If this is mesnt to add tension/drama it has failed for me at least.

 

 

[Scribe]

lol

[Vazzy]

41 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

And thus any actual discission on the book is rendered moot. Why even read it? Just tell yourself it was perfect and hand him a 20, save everyone some time and effort.  

 

I am 2/3 of the way thru the book, it is better then i expected. But it has issues. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

While i will type up a full review in time, for those also reading. GMan is stated as 9 hours away, but this is followed up by him being lost and unable to find terra due to the astronomicon still being down.

 

So what is he 9 hours away from ? If its sol then he knows where it is and has calculated eta so he aint lost. If its not the sol system then where is he going to end up in 9 hours? Is it supose go be he is lost but the beacon ges lit in the near future and his message is from there being time distorted by the warp?  

 

Also 9 hours from the sol system means days from terra, 9 hours from terra means he is already in the system?  If this is mesnt to add tension/drama it has failed for me at least.

 

 

 

Spoiler

I read it as they're a nine hour jump away but need the Astronomicon to guide them in. I guess for me that kind of stuff doesn't take away my enjoyment. It's easier for me to handwave stuff like that. Of course Guilliman needs the beacon lit, how can they get in accurately without it? 

 

Referring to you first point, I prefer Abnett stick to the main story beats. I'll be annoyed if Sanguinius attacks the Emperor or something, but overall I like stuff like the perpetuals and Erda. I'm still glad it's him writing the finale. But for me, Abnettverse is 40k to me, which I know most fraters here don't agree with. I got into Warhammer and the Heresy when I randomly picked up Horus Rising at Barnes and Noble. I play Ultramarines because of Know No Fear. So Abnett is my guy, and to me personally he is the best writer they have. 

[Nagashsnee]

Spoiler

But how does he know he is 9 hours away? Why gives us a number that can only have meaning if both the starting amd ending location is know? Why gives us a hard number at all?   Its such a weird choice. For that matter how did he calculate it at the end of echoes if the beacon was so crucial? Why roes he never mention it?

His msgs are always etas and promises of help rather then 'brothers i am lost, been heading in what i hope is the right direction, light the beacons'.  

 

Unremembered empire forever tarnished him for me.

[Mjasghar]

13 hours ago, Corinthus said:

I got the preorder for the ebook on BL, but it says it will be available next week. I’m just surprised that you can buy it legally now if BL is holding it until next week. This or I’m missing something

I suspect it may be a regional issue where some countries allow you to get something as soon as you pre order it.

The micro chapters thing is annoying but there’s so many different groups at the start it’s needed. 
Big spanner in the theories around both what Omegon/Alpha position is and the Bequin third book 

[tgcleric]

8 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

And thus any actual discission on the book is rendered moot. Why even read it? Just tell yourself it was perfect and hand him a 20, save everyone some time and effort.  

 

I am 2/3 of the way thru the book, it is better then i expected. But it has issues. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

While i will type up a full review in time, for those also reading. GMan is stated as 9 hours away, but this is followed up by him being lost and unable to find terra due to the astronomicon still being down.

 

So what is he 9 hours away from ? If its sol then he knows where it is and has calculated eta so he aint lost. If its not the sol system then where is he going to end up in 9 hours? Is it supose go be he is lost but the beacon ges lit in the near future and his message is from there being time distorted by the warp?  

 

Also 9 hours from the sol system means days from terra, 9 hours from terra means he is already in the system?  If this is mesnt to add tension/drama it has failed for me at least.

 

 

 

He's not a perfect author, lol. And outside Warhammer he's not one of my favorites either.

 

I don't think Know No Fear works as a novel. It's got some of the best action I've ever read - the destruction of the orbital space ports is genuinely awe-inspiring writing. 

 

Unremembered Empire is a lot of fun, but doesn't work for me as a whole.

 

I don't expect artists i admire to be perfect or about criticism. But when there is a genuine artist I do respect I'm excited to read their work and see what they are going for, even if it ends up not working.

 

I have no idea if Abnett will actually be able to pull of the insane task of making this whole mess of a series conclude. But my point is that he's far and away the only person who should try. 

 

I hope the book is good. 

[Nagashsnee]

23 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

 

 

I have no idea if Abnett will actually be able to pull of the insane task of making this whole mess of a series conclude. But my point is that he's far and away the only person who should try. 

 

No for me Chris wraight is the main. Solid, dependable, gets the setting is not prone to twists for the sake of twists.  The white scar trilogy is the golden standard for the HH and his 40k work is fantastic.

 

Perpetuals, enuchia, half the mess that needs cleaning up starts with Abnett. And while you say you are ok with him going ham with the setting/lore as long as he writes it i am not.  I had no trust in BL editorial being able or even wanting/caring enough to curb his worse tendecies and having finished the book i stand by that initial stance. I regret buying the LE but with a little luck i will find someone to trade it with for a copy of EoE. 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[caladancid]

I am so shocked by the Abnett hate...oh wait nope no I am not.

 

I especially like how thats coming from some people who haven't even finished the novel yet. The most perplexing part of the hate is- who else would you have finish the series? Guy Haley? Lost and Damned was not great. John French? Ok he is possible but he can be hot/cold. Chris Wraight? Would have done well I think, but his latest Primarch novel wasn't well received either. ADB? Fanboys may not admit it, but while his last book was great it wasn't great from a bringing things together perspective. And, you would have waited another five years at least.

 

The hate on Abnett is the most classic of all fandom hates- he changes things. Except at the end of the day he doesn't really. His books track with what you thought, but they get there in unusual ways. 

[DarkChaplain]

I think I'm going blind. I haven't actually seen much in the way of "Abnett hate" here so far. Even Scribe seems okayish with the spoilers so far, which is certainly a surprise.

 

As for myself, so far I really just dread the present tense with overly flowery prose people talked about. Present tense, especially after the rest of the series didn't use it, just feels extremely off to me in general.

[b1soul]

The part that's going to have people mad as all hell - Upon arriving on the Vengeful Spirit, the Hetaeron turn against the Emperor, corrupted by the influence of Chaos as they cry tears of blood and howl. The Emperor is able to banish the influence, but he must constantly ward their minds under the influence. Out of the full hundred that came with him, only 27 survive either the Emperor killing them outright or the Emperor killing them as they lie on the ground, unable to stand and resist Chaos' power

 

Im perfectly fine with this.

 

Right before the final confrontation, the Vengeful Spirit with Horus aboard is the epicenter of Chaos in realspace, with all four Chaos Gods pumping the Warp into it.

 

This shows how incredibly powerful Warp corruption can be aboard the VS or certain parts of it.

 

If the rule of Custodes incorruptibility is ever broken, it should be here.

 

 

[Sete]

Tasty spoilers. Cheers guys 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

I think I'm going blind. I haven't actually seen much in the way of "Abnett hate" here so far. Even Scribe seems okayish with the spoilers so far, which is certainly a surprise.

 

Correct on all counts. The irony is rich.

[caladancid]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

I think I'm going blind. I haven't actually seen much in the way of "Abnett hate" here so far. Even Scribe seems okayish with the spoilers so far, which is certainly a surprise.

 

As for myself, so far I really just dread the present tense with overly flowery prose people talked about. Present tense, especially after the rest of the series didn't use it, just feels extremely off to me in general.

 

It wasn't really here where it was real  bad, though some for sure, but Reddit.

[tgcleric]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

No for me Chris wraight is the main. Solid, dependable, gets the setting is not prone to twists for the sake of twists.  The white scar trilogy is the golden standard for the HH and his 40k work is fantastic.

 

Perpetuals, enuchia, half the mess that needs cleaning up starts with Abnett. And while you say you are ok with him going ham with the setting/lore as long as he writes it i am not.  I had no trust in BL editorial being able or even wanting/caring enough to curb his worse tendecies and having finished the book i stand by that initial stance. I regret buying the LE but with a little luck i will find someone to trade it with for a copy of EoE. 

 

 

 

That's fine. I love Wraight. I think he is definitely the second strongest in terms of constructing a narrative.

 

I like the perpetual and enuchia. But more than that, those are low on the lost of priorities to me in terms of what needs to be cleaned up. 

 

Biggest issue with HH is 54 novels and only about 90 characters in it have any real identifying personality and psychology outside of some generic riff on the dedicated soldier.

 

It's about 3000 characters with the depth of a quote on a call of duty loading screen. 

 

Every character Abnett writes has personality and personal wants, and those wants and personality push his narratives forward in ways that male the conflict personal and dramatic.

 

He's a craftsman. He's good at it. 

 

Just read the scene where the guards hold up the banner in the final moments. Damn. I mean he gets more conflict and thematic richness out of a skeptical remembrancer seeking the truth and a grizzled soldier who always lies than 100,000 words on corax.

 

Anyways. I didn't want to derail actual discussion on the book. I came to this series after reading Abnett and Horus Rising and my main desire is to just read a good piece of fiction.  There's not a lot of that in the 58 novels of HH I've read.

[Nagashsnee]

Oh for sure, large tracks of the HH are a dumsterfire of quality. But we should be comparing the best with the best, not the rest.

 

I like abnett, saturnine was as you say fantastic,  know no fear is the go to HH battle book. Eishenhorn and Ravernor are awesome. But he also has certain traits which i feel make him not the best choice for a finalle. Anyhow as you said not to go too off topic. Back on topic.

 

 

Spoiler

My greatest single issue with this book, is that it is not a book, it is at best half a book maybe even a third of a whole book. It builds and build and build and then just ends.   I cant think of a single narrative or plot point it concludes.  500 pages of what should be the final book, but nothing actualy ends or dies.

 

Astronomicon is not fixed, keeler doesnt exits stage left, loken is still wondering about, etc etc. Everyone is moving towards the end, but its still MILES away, no way this is 2 books, no way. 

 

I could live with the micro chapters ( not my preference tho), i dont mind the first person for everyone. I can forgive Bhad bastion falling off screen and Dorn just already being in the palace ( tho it annoys me no end). 

 

But the thing i cannot get over is the feeling of getting to the end and feeling cheated. Someone stole my books narative arc! The ending is missing the printer messed up and just cut it off at  random point.

 

Now if the whole book build up to the teleport attack that would be fine. If it ended with the Angel walking into horus throne room ok stage set. But it ends at such a mid breath point that i cant belive a professionzl editor CHOOSE to leave us here for 6ish months. 

 

And when it eventually does come out it can easily go 2-300 pages dealing with all the  mess before we ever get back to the spirit.

 

Why they choose to have them teleport up so early in the book got me all excited, but there was no pay off. And not even a cliffhanger to be seen.    I know it was written as one big book, but who ever edited it into sub books has in my view really dropped the ball.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Vazzy]

Moving back to the novel. I

Spoiler

was extremely skeptical of the chaos corrupted custodes when I read the spoiler , but in context it works and I really enjoyed it.

 
 

We do get the knowledge that one loyalist marine is worth at least 45 traitors though, so our favorite number obsessed frater may have to revise his calculations

[Fedor]

Comments about X author got more thematic/character depth out of one scene, or conversation, than Y authors entire book/contribution(or half the series in general) are almost always distinctly hyperbolic imo. Even in the most surface level plot driven/bolter porn books, there are usually a few scenes that will address different themes inherent to the setting, and/or provide some character meat with introspective conflict outside of pure plot concerns.

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes there are genuinely standout scenes, and everyone has their favourites as far as the actual execution of it all goes, but when i read stuff starting to fall into such heavy declarations on books i've also read, it often doesn't hold up for me. It usually says this person has started to consume their favourites uncritically, fall into fanboy territory, and be far too harsh on those they haven't liked as much.

 

[Fedor]

57 minutes ago, Vazzy said:

Moving back to the novel. I

  Reveal hidden contents

was extremely skeptical of the chaos corrupted custodes when I read the spoiler , but in context it works and I really enjoyed it.

 
 

We do get the knowledge that one loyalist marine is worth at least 45 traitors though, so our favorite number obsessed frater may have to revise his calculations

 

lmao. i hope that's just someones colourful internal ramblings. It's the sort of thing that if played straight will end up dominating wider discussion, especially with their already being a large contingent that feel the portrayal of the traitors has been increasingly straying into "bumbling mooks" territory.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Fedor

[Vazzy]

51 minutes ago, Fedor said:

 

lmao. i hope that's just someones colourful internal ramblings. It's the sort of thing that if played straight will end up dominating wider discussion, especially with their already being a large contingent that feel the portrayal of the traitors has been increasingly straying into "bumbling mooks" territory.

 

It is. I’m just being obnoxious. It’s a character fighting alone and accounting for himself. No official source that explicitly says it lol. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Vazzy