The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Bobss]

Flicking through a copy I obtained from the warp, this reads like a standard Abnett book: intelligent, stylish, wonderfully written, but maybe not as aligned with people's 30k/40k preferences as Wraight's or ADB's work would be

 

Some of those lore nuggets are a little ''Oh no. Anyway...'' but having slept on things, and then worked today, to get it out of my system, I'm just happy we're finally here...

 

The Emperor is on the Vengeful Spirit, guys

 

The Emperor is on the Vengeful Spirit

Edited February 19, 2023 by Bobss
Posted prematurely like a sausage

[grailkeeper]

I'm about 80% of the way through. I bought the pre release before I got the leaked version.

 

Despite my earlier criticism I do think this is excellent and a fitting end to the series. The expectations he must have been dealing with would have been immense.

 

So far he has stuck the landing.

[Scribe]

49 minutes ago, Bobss said:

Some of those lore nuggets are a little ''Oh no. Anyway...'' but having slept on things, and then worked today, to get it out of my system, I'm just happy we're finally here...

 

[Bobss]

I don't mind the whole Custodes incident because I think ADB went waaay overboard with them in

The Master of Mankind - and I say that as someone who read that book 3 times in 11 months. They were silly even compared to their portrayal in The First Heretic. In fact, even though Chris Wraight was clearly inspired by TMOM for his Watchers. series, even he's dialled back the Custodes' craziness. I appreciate incorruptibility =/= pOwEr LeVeL but you get my point

 

So yeah, whatever. But you KNOW that spoiler is going to be taken out of context by other sites, just like how 99% of Reddit still believes Drach'nyen was formed from the Emperor's uncle murdering his father, despite the former most likely occurring during the Pleistocene and the latter taking place in the early Bronze Age... all due to a spoilers thread in 2016!

[Scribe]

Only one spoiler gives me the eyebrow raise, but I'm hoping its just a lack of context.

 

Spoiler

5th God?

 

[Mjasghar]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Only one spoiler gives me the eyebrow raise, but I'm hoping its just a lack of context.

 

  Hide contents

5th God?

 

That’s been a part of 40k lore for ages - even hinted at happening again at the end of the 41st millennium 

[wecanhaveallthree]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Only one spoiler gives me the eyebrow raise, but I'm hoping its just a lack of context.

 

  Hide contents

5th God?

 

 

It's not a lack of context. Or, well, it is, but yes, that's very much the premise being put forward, and very solidly, from multiple quarters.

 

For a little more context:

 

Spoiler

The suggestion is that Horus is, heh, rising to become a new Chaos God (or bring one forth). It's discussed how the Gods aren't just randomly created, they're just waiting to be born/expressed. Slaanesh engineered and used the Fall to emerge, f'ex, and this is the example used in the text. The 'Dark King' is mentioned a few times, and the Dark King card appears in the Emperor's Tarot (very Deck of Dragons, that). However, in context, it seems like it could refer to either Horus or the Emperor. There are plenty of themes of duality through the whole Heresy, of course, but probably the best 'proof' of this is there's a protracted scene of the Emperor deciding to just go absolutely ham with his psychic abilities. Malcador is watching using Throne-o-Vision and talking about how the Emperor is using the power he stole from the Pantheon, and that they've made a big mistake in submerging everything in the Warp - you don't put out a fire by pouring fuel on it, basically. 

 

So the Emperor is cleaning house, dispelling illusions, banishing daemons, rescuing all his bros, and Malcador is like 'damn he's going all out, it's awesome, and he's really mad and doesn't care about Horus any more and is actually looking forward to killing the guy and making him suffer'. The Emperor calls out psychically to tell Horus he's COMING TO KILL HIM, IN SOL, ABOARD THE VENGEFUL SPIRIT. Immediately after this section, we have a microchapter with the Ruinous Powers laughing with glee and chanting a name.

 

There's a definite suggestion here that Chaos is pushing the Emperor towards ascending (remember that 'gods-in-waiting' bit from Vengeful Spirit?) or that the clash between the two and resulting destruction will bring out a fifth Chaos God.

 

A big question is, of course, who that god might be, cos' somehow I don't see the Great Horned Rat in 40K however much I might want it to happen.

 

[DarkChaplain]

I find it rather funny that

 

"The Dark King" is being used here for Horus, when waaaaaaaaay back when in the first HH chapbook, and later the first audio drama, recorded by Danny Webb, it was used to refer to Konrad Curze. "The Dark King" was McNeill's story, coupled with Abnett's "The Lightning Tower".

 

Anyhow, I like that idea. Especially interesting with how the Emperor in Godblight's Guilliman-Throneroom-Flashback was depicted as fractured and broken into myriad different voices, horrifying Guilliman. I wonder if the Emperor is perpetually (pun intended) on the edge of good and evil, order and chaos, and that his resurrection or full-on ascension isn't at all what the Imperium might believe it to be.

 

There's another part, harking back to Legion, that might make the Cabal look very foolish: They believed that Horus winning would cause somewhat of an extinction event, wiping out most of humanity in a few decades of agony but weakening the gods to a point where the galaxy could be at relative peace. With Horus potentially ascending or giving birth to a 5th god, this plan seems a lot less appealing. Was the Cabal blind to it, or is that the real reason why Eldrad Ulthran chose to abandon the scheme and wipe out the other conspirators?

[Scribe]

57 minutes ago, Mjasghar said:

That’s been a part of 40k lore for ages - even hinted at happening again at the end of the 41st millennium 

 

Oh I know, the hamfisted works of the more recent lore.

[wecanhaveallthree]

27 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

I find it rather funny that

 

 

  Hide contents

"The Dark King" is being used here for Horus, when waaaaaaaaay back when in the first HH chapbook, and later the first audio drama, recorded by Danny Webb, it was used to refer to Konrad Curze. "The Dark King" was McNeill's story, coupled with Abnett's "The Lightning Tower".

 

 

Anyhow, I like that idea. Especially interesting with how the Emperor in Godblight's Guilliman-Throneroom-Flashback was depicted as fractured and broken into myriad different voices, horrifying Guilliman. I wonder if the Emperor is perpetually (pun intended) on the edge of good and evil, order and chaos, and that his resurrection or full-on ascension isn't at all what the Imperium might believe it to be.

 

There's another part, harking back to Legion, that might make the Cabal look very foolish: They believed that Horus winning would cause somewhat of an extinction event, wiping out most of humanity in a few decades of agony but weakening the gods to a point where the galaxy could be at relative peace. With Horus potentially ascending or giving birth to a 5th god, this plan seems a lot less appealing. Was the Cabal blind to it, or is that the real reason why Eldrad Ulthran chose to abandon the scheme and wipe out the other conspirators?
 

 

 

 

That's pretty much the whole point of Godblight, yeah. 'Are you sure you want to wake it up?'

 

And the Ynnari books, but they are but a distant dream, now.

 

On the Cabal front, I don't think it was ever meant to be absolute, total truth. The Cabal were being run by wacky Eldar and whatever the lizard boy was. All species who had lost ground about humanity. It sure would be convenient if the nascent galactic superpower could be destroyed, you know, for the greater good. They were no more above/beyond being manipulated by Chaos than anything or anybody else. At very least, I always assumed the Acuity was either tainted/interpreted in a very xeno-centric way. Or, at the very least, thinking that Chaos is just going to 'burn itself out' and not take the galaxy down with it was pretty dumb.

[b1soul]

10 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

No for me Chris wraight is the main. Solid, dependable, gets the setting is not prone to twists for the sake of twists.  The white scar trilogy is the golden standard for the HH and his 40k work is fantastic.

 

Agree that Chris is the Gold Standard, but I still love Abnett for his unique style and willingness to take risks...to challenge the boundaries of what 40K is. I loved Pariah and Penitent because of how they read like nothing else in the setting imo.

 

Is he the best choice for capping off the Siege? Really depends on personal taste. Only Chris and ADB (maybe French) could do it better...possibly imo. 

[Petitioner's City]

Well I loved the book, it was everything I had hoped for and more :) 

 

Not so bothered about the hanging threads (it is a part 1), and if I was to describe how it felt, it felt like the joy and terror I had reading Anarch, the final Magos story and Penitent. Can't wait to listen to it and reread!

[Guest Triszin]

Out of curiosity, is cegorach anywhere in this book?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Moonreaper should be happy.

Spoiler

Doombreed gets a namedrop, as does Be’lakor and pretty much every other named daemon. 

 

[Noserenda]

Yeah the Daemon name dropping is a great section, good news Daemon fans! They were all at the siege!  :D 

Ive only scan read the thread so far so apologies if im replicating thoughts, but given what went immediately wrong with the teleporter assault, perhaps the Emperor could have gathered together a whole bunch of psychic nulls to comlement the Custodes, another talon to his fist if you will... *eyerolls out of his chair* 

Like, the Silent Sisterhood is in the book but its missing from one of the most important actions? Baffling.

But yeah, im loving it so far (Near the start of part 3) all the little vignette chapters are really atmospheric, id possibly say the book is a triumph of atmosphere over substance so far but that might well tighten up by the end.

[lightinfa]

Just finished - the book is spectacular - pretty much everything I wanted from Abnett. Basically had a silly grin on my face the whole weekend as I devoured this. Will attempt to get some more complex thoughts in order later.

[lightinfa]

15 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah the Daemon name dropping is a great section, good news Daemon fans! They were all at the siege!  :D 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ive only scan read the thread so far so apologies if im replicating thoughts, but given what went immediately wrong with the teleporter assault, perhaps the Emperor could have gathered together a whole bunch of psychic nulls to comlement the Custodes, another talon to his fist if you will... *eyerolls out of his chair* 

Like, the Silent Sisterhood is in the book but its missing from one of the most important actions? Baffling.

 

 

But yeah, im loving it so far (Near the start of part 3) all the little vignette chapters are really atmospheric, id possibly say the book is a triumph of atmosphere over substance so far but that might well tighten up by the end.

 

 

This is an astute observation - at least this volume isn't as intellectually deep or ambitious as Saturnine, but I still found it to be tremendously powerful in the realm of feeling and emotion.

[Mjasghar]

Since teleporting requires use of the warp has there been any case of sisters being teleported? 
I think I remember individuals being teleported but maybe a large number together might affect the warp tech. 

[MarineRaiderII]

I just finished. There were parts where I just cheered in my mind and others that had me reaching to my laptop to look up a word.

 

I only have one question, how on earth can they stretch this to 3 books?

[lightinfa]

33 minutes ago, MarineRaiderII said:

I just finished. There were parts where I just cheered in my mind and others that had me reaching to my laptop to look up a word.

 

I only have one question, how on earth can they stretch this to 3 books?

 

I agree that that's very hard to see - unless the third volume is largely epilogue/tying up loose ends (I could see something where volume 2 ends right before Horus v Emperor, volume 3 starts with that but most of it is falling action). OR these books get very weird and the clash between Horus and the Emperor takes hundreds of pages spanning perceived centuries of conflict in the immaterium.

 

Regardless, I can't see how this goes beyond a third volume.

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Mjasghar said:

Since teleporting requires use of the warp has there been any case of sisters being teleported? 
I think I remember individuals being teleported but maybe a large number together might affect the warp tech. 

Im not sure, though its (afaik) still a tech thing rather than a psychic power when done this way, certainly its always been tech like beacons and homers making it easier or harder rather than psykers in game, though obviously some psykers can teleport :D 

If it was they could easily slip that fact in though id expect? 

[Allart01]

51 minutes ago, MarineRaiderII said:

I just finished. There were parts where I just cheered in my mind and others that had me reaching to my laptop to look up a word.

 

I only have one question, how on earth can they stretch this to 3 books?

 

Do they really have to?

I hope they don't.

I haven't finished the book, but are we positive that two volumes aren't enough?

Edited February 20, 2023 by Allart01

[Dried]

It's confirmed it'll be 3 books and not 2 ?

I'm already traumatized by the last LE preorder... 

[lightinfa]

14 minutes ago, Dried said:

It's confirmed it'll be 3 books and not 2 ?

I'm already traumatized by the last LE preorder... 

 

Not confirmed but heavily implied - volume 2 cover (Sanguinius vs Horus) doesn't feel like the cover of a final book, plus Abnett has mentioned the book being divided into "several" volumes, which implies to me more than 2.

[grailkeeper]

I really liked this book, despite having to frequently look up words. In some parts its a good writing technique to use such obscure words - I'm thinking here of the Malchador parts. I generally enjoy learning new words but when I have to check 5 times in one paragraph it really interrupts the flow. 

 

Spoiler

I particularly liked the Daemon name check part. It was a good rug pull as to how "With it" Horus is.

 

One criticism I have is the speed of the traitors dropping their shields. It came out of nowhere and is subsequently justified. It was always a desperation play. I'd have liked to have seen that desperation mount up first.

 

One super, super nitpicky part is the drawing of Fafnir and Zephon. They're described in the book as being helmeted and Zephon specifically swaps his ornate gun for a more suitable bolt pistol. In the drawing they're helmetless and he has a volkite.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by grailkeeper