The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, Mjasghar said:

No that scene just focused on one part of the wall there were other psi titans

 

The Psi-Titans plugged a hole in the defense when Legio Mortis and the Warmaster Titans decimated the Loyalist Titans

 

Despite their special weapons the Ordo Sinisters are too few in number and mass to make a difference and are no longer on Mercury Wall during Warhawk

[Lord_Caerolion]

The EC had between 1/4 to 1/3 of the Legion sacrificed by Fulgrim as Loyalists, with an estimated 20,000 lost in the subsequent extermination. 
As for what happened after, you realize that the EC losing all focus on the wider war and giving in to personal “entertainments” is their whole thing, right? Fabius wasn’t caring about increasing numbers, he was caring about his experiments with geneseed, because he didn’t care about the wider Legion. 
Fulgrim wasn’t caring about increasing numbers, or getting Dark Mechanicus to do so, he was caring about having endless orgies and feasts as a Daemon Prince, because he didn’t care about the wider Legion. 
 

As for Guilliman “having an aneurysm” about how to deal with the supposed limitless hordes? You… you haven’t even given that a single thought other than “Chaos is awesome!”, have you? Here’s how the scenario will play out:

 

Bridge staff: “Lord Primarch, we’re detecting large hordes of Traitor infantry across the surface of Terra, they appear badly organised, in incredibly poor shape, and very poorly equipped. What are your orders?”

Guilliman: “Commence orbital bombardment.”

Problem solved. 
 

I mean, it’s not like it’d even be necessary for the majority of the planet, there’s almost literally no resources left. Give it a week and most of the traitors left behind will be resorting to cannibalism (if they aren’t already).

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

The EC had between 1/4 to 1/3 of the Legion sacrificed by Fulgrim as Loyalists, with an estimated 20,000 lost in the subsequent extermination. 
As for what happened after, you realize that the EC losing all focus on the wider war and giving in to personal “entertainments” is their whole thing, right? Fabius wasn’t caring about increasing numbers, he was caring about his experiments with geneseed, because he didn’t care about the wider Legion. 
Fulgrim wasn’t caring about increasing numbers, or getting Dark Mechanicus to do so, he was caring about having endless orgies and feasts as a Daemon Prince, because he didn’t care about the wider Legion. 
 

As for Guilliman “having an aneurysm” about how to deal with the supposed limitless hordes? You… you haven’t even given that a single thought other than “Chaos is awesome!”, have you? Here’s how the scenario will play out:

 

Bridge staff: “Lord Primarch, we’re detecting large hordes of Traitor infantry across the surface of Terra, they appear badly organised, in incredibly poor shape, and very poorly equipped. What are your orders?”

Guilliman: “Commence orbital bombardment.”

Problem solved. 
 

I mean, it’s not like it’d even be necessary for the majority of the planet, there’s almost literally no resources left. Give it a week and most of the traitors left behind will be resorting to cannibalism (if they aren’t already).

 

And yet the Emperors Children had enough Marines to take Horus' body from his Legion

 

By the 41st Millenium the Emperors Children are more than the Word Bearers

 

That's assuming Guilliman can get pass Mars, Horus' Armada and the Space Daemons

 

The Saturnine Spaceport, Astronomican and other places are too important to be destroyed by orbital strikes

 

The Dark Mechanicum on Terra can shoot back at Guilliman's fleet with long range anti-ship weapons as they did on Mars during Solar War

 

The vast majority of Traitor Marines on Terra survive up to the 42nd Millenium. It explains why there are so many HH veterans during the Great Rift

[Nagashsnee]

Moonreaper you put too much stock in the notion that anyone at GW has ever ever ever given the numbers more then 0,1 seconds of attention.

 

How many loaylists left? As many as the current story needs.

How many traitors on terra, how many the author wants.

Why are so many HH veterans left by M41? Because making new interesting characters is hard, because many already have minis and because because they can always handwave it away with 'the warp'. 

 

I love the warhammer lore, and try to sort it out in a semi logical way, but hard numbers will never have never made sense. The studio simply doesnt care, has never cared, and all indications point too will never care enough.  They will spit out whatever they thinks sounds coolest and worse case retcon it latter. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I find these discussions about 'x should have beaten y because they had z more troops' and similar debates extremely tedious.  I've cut down on the time spent on this website as a consequence as it feels like all the exciting threads get derailed in the same manner.  

 

[cheywood]

13 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I find these discussions about 'x should have beaten y because they had z more troops' and similar debates extremely tedious.  I've cut down on the time spent on this website as a consequence as it feels like all the exciting threads get derailed in the same manner.  

 

If people just stopped responding to Moonreaper this forum would be in much better shape. Does anyone really want to engage in the same inane arguments day after day with a frater who, intentionally or unintentionally, has an incredibly limited grasp of the facts and philosophy behind the setting? It feels Sisyphean. 

[DarkChaplain]

On 1/2/2023 at 5:30 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

That's assuming Guilliman can [...]

 

He can. He will. He does.

 

That's really all we need to say on the matter at this point. Moonreaper, these things are set in stone. They're the fundamental stuff that isn't going to change. These are events covered numerous times across Black Library.

 

We know Guilliman will do these things and the traitors break and bugger off from the system. The Traitor Legions LOSE.

 

Them's the facts, and there's no point debating them further.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I’m just… there’s only so much slamming my head against a brick wall I can take. 

[grailkeeper]

We knew the end long before we knew anything else. We know that Horus drops the shield, teleport in and the rest is history. Doesnt matter how unlikely it seems.

 

Its the same way that we knew Titanic would sink before we went into the movie, or I knew that this thread was going to be locked before it was. 

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

On 1/3/2023 at 3:59 PM, grailkeeper said:

We knew the end long before we knew anything else. We know that Horus drops the shield, teleport in and the rest is history. Doesnt matter how unlikely it seems.

 

Its the same way that we knew Titanic would sink before we went into the movie, or I knew that this thread was going to be locked before it was. 

 

Proof Horus dropped the shields?

 

Samus didn't exist in the old lore. The Daemon of 'The End and The Death' is now a major part of the Siege

 

Both Loken and Abaddon (he returned to the Siege during Warhawk) will teleport into the Vengeful Spirit to have their climatic duel. Loken didn't exist in the Old Lore either

 

The number of dead Traitor Marines during the Siege is much lighter in the new Lore than old

 

Erebus the Perpetual-killer has been hunting down Ollianius Pius throughout several novels/short stories. Going to take a few Librarians sacrificing themselves to stop him from killing Pius. Probably more nameless and named Loyalists

 

Does the last Garro novel take place BEFORE or AFTER Warhawk?

 

If it's after, then Morty has returned to the Siege

 

 

[Carach]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:37 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

Both Loken and Abaddon (he returned to the Siege during Warhawk) will teleport into the Vengeful Spirit to have their climatic duel. Loken didn't exist in the Old Lore either

 

To take your words; 'proof' that Loken and Abaddon have a climatic duel?

 

Quote

The number of dead Traitor Marines during the Siege is much lighter in the new Lore than old

 

Proof? 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Carach

[Ubiquitous1984]

4 hours ago, Carach said:

 

To take your words; 'proof' that Loken and Abaddon have a climatic duel?

 

 

Proof? 

 

 

Damn you fell for the trap, we were collectively all doing so well too!!  

[punkfish]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:37 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

 

 

Proof Horus dropped the shields?

 

Samus didn't exist in the old lore. The Daemon of 'The End and The Death' is now a major part of the Siege

 

Both Loken and Abaddon (he returned to the Siege during Warhawk) will teleport into the Vengeful Spirit to have their climatic duel. Loken didn't exist in the Old Lore either

 

The number of dead Traitor Marines during the Siege is much lighter in the new Lore than old

 

Erebus the Perpetual-killer has been hunting down Ollianius Pius throughout several novels/short stories. Going to take a few Librarians sacrificing themselves to stop him from killing Pius. Probably more nameless and named Loyalists

 

Does the last Garro novel take place BEFORE or AFTER Warhawk?

 

If it's after, then Morty has returned to the Siege

 

 

 

As you asked for it, the proof that Horus dropped the shields. The below is from the original Heresy fiction written by Bill King. 

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship. It was an invitation and a personal challenge that he knew the Emperor could not resist. He was being offered a chance finally to smite the foe who had harried him for so long.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 minutes ago, punkfish said:

 

As you asked for it, the proof that Horus dropped the shields. The below is from the original Heresy fiction written by Bill King. 

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship. It was an invitation and a personal challenge that he knew the Emperor could not resist. He was being offered a chance finally to smite the foe who had harried him for so long.

 

 

 

Ya but that was before Samus was canon, even though its been punked in every novel it's shown up in and has had 0 impact on the narrative, it's now going to completely change what happens in the final momenta of the siege .

 

Seriously, every chaos daemon/primarch/marine character has only shown up to get owned by the loyalists. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[DarkChaplain]

I think my frustration at the final book of the Siege being split into parts has just been put into perspective by the news surrounding Attack on Titan's anime adaptation.

"The Final Season" already had two parts, a year apart, and now the Final Part of the Final Season was just confirmed to also be split into Part 1 in March and Part 2 likely spring 2024.  They're looking at a 3-4 year span for the entire "Finale".

 

Makes all the complaining about the Siege of Terra feel rather silly, when I look at how much of a circus other media properties manage to produce. So... I guess it could always be worse.

 

Edit: THIS IS NOT AN INVITATION TO MAKE IT WORSE, GW/BL!

Edited January 17, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Nagashsnee]

10 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Makes all the complaining about the Siege of Terra feel rather silly, when I look at how much of a circus other media properties manage to produce. So... I guess it could always be worse.

I will never understand this kind of thinking.  It can almost ALWAYS be worse. Heck considering we dont know the final number of books the final book will be ( just writing that pained me) it might very likely become worse. 

[DukeLeto69]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:32 PM, Nagashsnee said:

I will never understand this kind of thinking.  It can almost ALWAYS be worse. Heck considering we dont know the final number of books the final book will be ( just writing that pained me) it might very likely become worse. 

It’s obvious that we will end up having:

 

1. The HH series

2. The HH/SOT mini series

3. The HH/SOT/TEATD micro series

 

The micro series will be:

 

Book 1: The

Book 2: End

Book 3: And

Book 4: The (again)

Book 5: Death

Bonus Book: Coda and assorted loose ends tied up

 

then a couple of years later:

 

Bonus book 2: oh yeah there were all these other loose ends we never tied up

Edited January 20, 2023 by DukeLeto69

[Cactus]

You're too optimistic. Within 5 years the SoT will be reprinted with new short stories interspersed. They'll be mostly irrelevant except one cool one (probably a fan favourite White Scar) and one that reveals something contradictory and controversial about Malcador. And we'll pay to eat it.

[Moonreaper666]

Would Kargos and others be revived here or in Vol 2?

[DarkChaplain]

19 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Would Kargos and others be revived here or in Vol 2?

 

If you're looking for necromancy, maybe check out Age of Sigmar. It's got plenty of Grand Alliance: Death novels to pick from.

[Bobss]

Aximand dropping the shields was a great theory and I don't care what others think

 

2010 ROADS, TAKE ME HOMEEE,

TO THE PLACE, I BELONGGGGG

[Moonreaper666]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:20 PM, DarkChaplain said:

 

If you're looking for necromancy, maybe check out Age of Sigmar. It's got plenty of Grand Alliance: Death novels to pick from.

 

Kargos does survive the Siege in the old lore, still alive in the 41st Millenium

 

Lucius, Khârn, Kibre and Eidolon have not yet been revived

[Alpharius902]

16 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Kargos does survive the Siege in the old lore, still alive in the 41st Millenium

 

Lucius, Khârn, Kibre and Eidolon have not yet been revived

 

Kargos is probably a retcon, he only shows up in an old rulebook as well as a throwaway line in Khârn: Eater of Worlds. If anything, he never even explicitly died per se, he might have been pulled out by some random apothecary.

 

Lucius hasn't showed up in the Siege at all, his next "death" is versus Cyrius which probably won't happen for a bit

 

Khârn doesn't get revived until three years later during Khârn: Eater of Worlds

 

Kibre will likely get revived at some point during End and the Death as some ritual, the daemon-thing fleeing his body will likely have something to do with it (foreshadowing for the daemon-hive thing probably)

 

Eidolon will probably get revived by Fabius offscreen

[System Sound]

Lucius was slithering around Sortiarus and challenging one of the Khenetai, in "The Crimson King" no?

And didnt EIdolon fall from Saturnine wall, but wasnt confirmed dead?

Edited January 24, 2023 by System Sound

[DarkChaplain]

8 minutes ago, System Sound said:

Lucius was slithering around Sortiarus and challenging one of the Khenetai, in "The Crimson King" no?

And didnt EIdolon fall from Saturnine wall, but wasnt confirmed dead?

 

That was about half the series ago, and actually happened years before The Crimson King, in Lucius: The Eternal Blade(master). Last we saw him, he was in The Crimson King, yes, but somehow lost and forgotten about being a thing after adventuring with Ahriman and co.

 

And Kibre is still alive as per Arks of Omen: Abaddon. He literally features during Abaddon's encounter with Vashtorr the Arkifane. I wouldn't count on him returning in The End and the Death, so long as he's back when Abaddon needs to meet him in Talon of Horus. However, there's a plothole there, especially regarding the Legion Wars and his daemonic possession status.