The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[grailkeeper]

Reckon we'll find out more about the red angel?

 

Also I googled burning angel, that ended up in something my wife wont like in my search history.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'm sure he'll form some sort of daemonic bodyguard for Horus, along with the Lord of Flies, Tormageddon and Samus. Gotta have your mid-bosses in there.

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I'm sure he'll form some sort of daemonic bodyguard for Horus, along with the Lord of Flies, Tormageddon and Samus. Gotta have your mid-bosses in there.

 

Erebus is going to be the early-boss keeping Ollianius Pius from getting into the Vengeful Spirit

 

A few Companies of the Emperor's Children will launch the first Traitor attack on Eternity Gate or bypassing it somehow (teleportation is one way) at the start of this Part. They all die but they kill many of the dwindling Loyalist Remnants which causing more Daemons to show up and are becoming stronger

 

How many rooms and space there is between the Gate and the Throne? (There would be improvised barricades and many refugees armed with whatever weapons they could be given with. Lots of matyrs bleeding to death in the Palace to hold every inch for every second possible)

 

I believe Kargos would be still alive or be revived during the Siege. He's the only notable WE HH character still alive post-Heresy besides Khârn or Angron

 

I wish Skulltaker would fight BOTH Azkaerllon and Raldoron together to a Tie!

 

Ahriman, Typhus and Vorx are still in play. Going to need A LOT of Silent Sisters and a few Custodes to matyr themselves to keep them away from the Throne

 

What are the chances that Aximand is revived and becomes Drecarth the Sightless?

 

There will be one minor POV character for the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Dark Mechanicum and the Traitor Imperial Army. Some of them survive and are feared, powerful Chaos champions present day

 

Of the 100k defenders in Echoes I doubt more than 7% are still alive by this point. The Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Civilians, Mechanicus and Malcador's Private Army will do most of the fighting and dying from this point forward

 

The Sons of Horus only loss less than Six Companies at this point. Abaddon is still active, killing many Loyalists in his rampage since Warhawk. He can easily lead his Legion in one final push to seize the Throne

 

Could Doombreed, An'ngrath, Skulktaker or Abaddon's (He is chosen already) presence dominate the rampaging World Eaters to follow their lead and attack the Gate?

 

The Death Guard are still in play as a Legion with Typhus, Vorx, Kargul, Kadex and many others still in command

 

Does Crossius become Necrossius? If so, that's one extra DG Champion that has to be Tarpitted/Distraction Carnifexed by someone

 

The Imperial Fists are down to their last 10k, vast majority still in Bhab Bastion currently besieged by other Traitor and Daemon forces

 

The Blood Angels are down to 2k. How many Loyalist Blackshields and of Garro's Seventy are left? Status of the Lucifer Blacks?

 

It's fair to say that many of the Second Founding Chapters started off with over 90% of their Marines being Neophytes during the Scouring. Which could explain why the Imperial Fists were slaughtered in the Iron Cage. (Inexperienced Troops + Angry Primarch = Dead Bodies)

 

I think Omegon would be in Part 2 but not in the Sol System. He would be comptemplating his purpose after the Heresy right after he abandoned his Legion to Chaos

 

Lotara does not command the Conqueror present day so something happens to her. Unless they retcon Kossolax to be her new name post-Heresy

[OpossumStrong]

6 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Erebus is going to be the early-boss keeping Ollianius Pius from getting into the Vengeful Spirit

 

A few Companies of the Emperor's Children will launch the first Traitor attack on Eternity Gate or bypassing it somehow (teleportation is one way) at the start of this Part. They all die but they kill many of the dwindling Loyalist Remnants which causing more Daemons to show up and are becoming stronger

 

How many rooms and space there is between the Gate and the Throne? (There would be improvised barricades and many refugees armed with whatever weapons they could be given with. Lots of matyrs bleeding to death in the Palace to hold every inch for every second possible)

 

I believe Kargos would be still alive or be revived during the Siege. He's the only notable WE HH character still alive post-Heresy besides Khârn or Angron

 

I wish Skulltaker would fight BOTH Azkaerllon and Raldoron together to a Tie!

 

Ahriman, Typhus and Vorx are still in play. Going to need A LOT of Silent Sisters and a few Custodes to matyr themselves to keep them away from the Throne

 

What are the chances that Aximand is revived and becomes Drecarth the Sightless?

 

There will be one minor POV character for the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Dark Mechanicum and the Traitor Imperial Army. Some of them survive and are feared, powerful Chaos champions present day

 

Of the 100k defenders in Echoes I doubt more than 7% are still alive by this point. The Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Civilians, Mechanicus and Malcador's Private Army will do most of the fighting and dying from this point forward

 

The Sons of Horus only loss less than Six Companies at this point. Abaddon is still active, killing many Loyalists in his rampage since Warhawk. He can easily lead his Legion in one final push to seize the Throne

 

Could Doombreed, An'ngrath, Skulktaker or Abaddon's (He is chosen already) presence dominate the rampaging World Eaters to follow their lead and attack the Gate?

 

The Death Guard are still in play as a Legion with Typhus, Vorx, Kargul, Kadex and many others still in command

 

Does Crossius become Necrossius? If so, that's one extra DG Champion that has to be Tarpitted/Distraction Carnifexed by someone

 

The Imperial Fists are down to their last 10k, vast majority still in Bhab Bastion currently besieged by other Traitor and Daemon forces

 

The Blood Angels are down to 2k. How many Loyalist Blackshields and of Garro's Seventy are left? Status of the Lucifer Blacks?

 

It's fair to say that many of the Second Founding Chapters started off with over 90% of their Marines being Neophytes during the Scouring. Which could explain why the Imperial Fists were slaughtered in the Iron Cage. (Inexperienced Troops + Angry Primarch = Dead Bodies)

 

I think Omegon would be in Part 2 but not in the Sol System. He would be comptemplating his purpose after the Heresy right after he abandoned his Legion to Chaos

 

Lotara does not command the Conqueror present day so something happens to her. Unless they retcon Kossolax to be her new name post-Heresy

What? I don't know where to start from.

 

Just in case, are we reading the same books?

 

Are those your wishes or facts?

 

First of all im confused with the numbers, where are they taken from?

 

Some of your points may happen,sure, but i doubt they will be part of the main books.

I mean some of the obvious things, like Crossius = Necrossius, their history and position in the legion are very simmilar, but i don't think main books will focus on such minor plots, it can easily be done as a reference in a codex.

 

I'm quite sure we got the anwser for what happened to Lotara in EoE.

[cheywood]

8 minutes ago, OpossumStrong said:

What? I don't know where to start from.

 

Just in case, are we reading the same books?

 

Are those your wishes or facts?

 

First of all im confused with the numbers, where are they taken from?

 

Some of your points may happen,sure, but i doubt they will be part of the main books.

I mean some of the obvious things, like Crossius = Necrossius, their history and position in the legion are very simmilar, but i don't think main books will focus on such minor plots, it can easily be done as a reference in a codex.

 

I'm quite sure we got the anwser for what happened to Lotara in EoE.

The best place to start with Moonreaper is not replying. He has his headcanon, the rest of us have the actual canon, and never the twain shall meet. 

[darkhorse0607]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:51 PM, DarkChaplain said:

And Kibre is still alive as per Arks of Omen: Abaddon. He literally features during Abaddon's encounter with Vashtorr the Arkifane. I wouldn't count on him returning in The End and the Death, so long as he's back when Abaddon needs to meet him in Talon of Horus. However, there's a plothole there, especially regarding the Legion Wars and his daemonic possession status.

 

 

I do wonder if Abnett is going to touch this at all. I got the impression, as the end of Saturnine felt kind of rushed to me (which happens semi often with his books anyway), that he was just looking for names to kill to heighten the dramatic effect of the gambit. Plus you have a mountain of stuff that could be argued is more important than fixing that woopsie to deal with in The End and The Death first anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if Kibre just falls by the wayside and doesn't get mentioned. Fingers crossed he does though, because if he doesn't and they actually fix it, that would call on another author to go back and write it in on how he comes back.

[lansalt]

I think it's obvious that Abnett "killing" Kibre and Zephon in Saturnine was another case of lack of editorial oversight in the series. Although nothing tops Dorn being called the fourth primarch several times in the same page in Echoes of Eternity. I wonder if that was ADB deliberaly trying to see if somebody in BL checks books for mistakes before sending them to print, or just trolling IF/IW fans.

[System Sound]

4 hours ago, OpossumStrong said:

What? I don't know where to start from.

You don't. Just ignore this troll.

[Corinthus]

7 hours ago, lansalt said:

I think it's obvious that Abnett "killing" Kibre and Zephon in Saturnine was another case of lack of editorial oversight in the series. Although nothing tops Dorn being called the fourth primarch several times in the same page in Echoes of Eternity. I wonder if that was ADB deliberaly trying to see if somebody in BL checks books for mistakes before sending them to print, or just trolling IF/IW fans.

 

Kibre, with the demon thing inside his body saying see ya later, is easy to pull back to life with some intervention of the dark arts. If I remember correctly he was possessed in the first Black Legion book right?

Zephon... yeah that was weird. It's also weird how his description from MoM and EoE; and his mini from Forge World, don't really match (again, it was a long time since I read MoM but I'm pretty sure that at least the mini and the EoE description don't quite match).

 

The "Dorn the Fourth" Incident was hilarious to be honest. I really didn't like EoE as much as I thought I would and things like this were part of the reason why.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Corinthus
wording

[darkhorse0607]

13 hours ago, Corinthus said:

Zephon... yeah that was weird. It's also weird how his description from MoM and EoE; and his mini from Forge World, don't really match (again, it was a long time since I read MoM but I'm pretty sure that at least the mini and the EoE description don't quite match).

 

 

None of his descriptions really match. MoM doesn't match the model even remotely, ADB put him into the Sanguinary Guard in the short story as mentioned below, Abnett kept that in Saturnine, then ADB brought him back to more in line of how he was in MoM, except with his shiny new robo limbs.

 

Continuity during the Siege series has not been it's strong-suit

 

 

As for Dorn/fourth primarch thing. Yeah, that was weird. Being a fairly big Iron Warriors fan my eye started twitching every time they said that. It's purely my headcannon, but to prevent more eye twitching, I just headcannoned that they're already starting to distance themselves from the past and like how they don't really acknowledge the traitor primarchs in 40k (or didn't before they came back), they're not really counting them as primarchs anymore now. Which would actually put Dorn as the fourth then (Lion-1, Khan-2, Russ-3, and Dorn-4).

 

Probably 99.9% not why it's there but it makes me feel better.

Edited February 2, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[Felix Antipodes]

I dont feel there is a burning need for Abnett to sort out the Kibre mess, other than he created it and it would be nice to clean up his own mess.  They have plenty of ‘story time’ (between the death of Horus and when Kibre next appears) to sort that out during the Scouring era.

[Sothalor]

? ? ?

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the one who put Zephon in Sanguinary Guard armor in the short story Bringer of Sorrow:

Quote

One of the gate guards singled him out of the teeming tide of humanity. The golden Blood Angel striding towards him wore a great winged jump pack, the iron pinions of which went some way to clearing space around the warrior. The purposeful stride and scale of the man did the rest.

'Arkhan Land,' the Blood Angel said. 'hold here.'

His helm was a death mask of Terran antiquity, marked with red tears: rubies, fused to the golden cheek. His chest-plate was sculpted into a muscled reflection of masculine perfection, cast in the same gold as the rest of his armour. On any other world, the warrior would resemble a king. On Terra, among the Blood Angeles elite, he was just a warrior.

'I am expected,' the Martian replied. 'I-'

'I am aware of your situation,' the officer cut in. He didn't remove his helm to converse. 'You will proceed to the fourth Arclight Chamber within the Aphelion Suites. Lord Sanguinius awaits you there. You will have ten minutes of his time, no more.'

Land blinked. 'Zephon?'

'Do you understand the instructions I have given you?'

'Yes, yes, of course I understand. I'm not an idiot. Zephon, is that you? So they let you rejoin the Legion, eh?'

 

[lansalt]

I wonder if ADB will eventually write a short story about how Zephon left the Sanguinary Guard to wear again a red armour suit in Saturnine and EoE. There's no mention at all about it in EoE despite the parts following the point of view of one of his personal armouring serfs IIRC

[darkhorse0607]

3 hours ago, Sothalor said:

? ? ?

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the one who put Zephon in Sanguinary Guard armor in the short story Bringer of Sorrow:

 

Fair enough. I didn't even know that existed, I thought it went MoM->Saturnine for him. Edited my original comment

Edited February 2, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

The Kibre thing I never really minded because of the whole demon possession bit (both in the siege and black legion books), I find it pretty easy to hand wave away. And unless I'm remembering wrong doesn't a character in ADB's book literally ask Kibre "I thought you/didn't you die at the siege?"

 

So I kind of assumed that the powers had a hand in resurrecting Kibre in order to find and push Abby into being the warmaster.

 

the Zephon thing ahh well I got nothing for that 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, changing armour isn’t really that hard to explain, guys. They’re in some of the most catastrophic fighting the galaxy has seen, and armour is literally designed to take those hits and save the wearer. 
 

Zephon is on Terra, wearing red, for the events of MoM. Sangy comes back, Zephon gets taken into the Guard, and given gold armour. Fighting happens, gold armour gets damaged enough, he brings red armour back out so that he’s not fighting naked. 

[lansalt]

The Sanguinary guard is not just wearing gold armour. It would mean becoming Sanguinius bodyguard and being under Azkaellon orders, but unless I'm mistaken he doesn't even appear in EoE.

Something between Bringer of Sorrow and Saturnine must have happened for Zephon to leave that unit, wear new red mkVI armour (He used mkIII in MoM), and become involved in the wall defence action that left him almost dead.

[Sothalor]

People also seem to be forgetting here that Zephon took an artillery barrage to save a Remembrancer's life in Saturnine, gets stuck in a suspended animation pod, and is woken up in Echoes as part of a last-ditch excursion behind enemy lines because Arkhan Land is a crusty, emotionally-driven arse who likes to pretend he's nothing but perfectly logical in all things.

 

It makes sense whatever armor Zephon was wearing when he caught an artillery shell with his body was rendered inoperable, and his armory serfs brought prior/backup equipment to rearm him with.

[lansalt]

IIRC in the book the serfs repair Zephon's armour, fixing holes, etc. instead of giving him a new suit.

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

The Kibre thing I never really minded because of the whole demon possession bit (both in the siege and black legion books), I find it pretty easy to hand wave away. And unless I'm remembering wrong doesn't a character in ADB's book literally ask Kibre "I thought you/didn't you die at the siege?"

 

So I kind of assumed that the powers had a hand in resurrecting Kibre in order to find and push Abby into being the warmaster.

 

the Zephon thing ahh well I got nothing for that 

 

Kibre's possession supposedly came about during a warp storm, with Khayon suspecting Sargon to orchestrate it and hurry it along. As per The Talon of Horus, Kibre also fought right after the Siege, and grew his own warband. Khayon supposedly fought alongside him plenty, and never knew of anything being wrong before their most recent meeting. Besides, it hit all of Kibre's buddies, too.

 

And this is Khayon the Thousand Son we're talking about, who in the same book uses his psychic ability to probe the depth of their possession.

 

So Kibre is on record both as fighting his way through the Siege and to the Eye after the breaking, and being alive for however much time passed inside the Eye of Terror, and to have shared some of the road with Abaddon too, before he left into exile.

 

Quote

His clan was formed from the companies he’d once commanded in the war, and the converts he’d gained in the centuries that stretched out after the Siege of Terra

Quote

We had history, Falkus and I. We trusted one another to the degree it was possible to trust any other soul of the Nine Legions. He was a patient man when not filled with a battlefield’s icy rage. We had served together more than once – first in the Great Crusade, then during the Siege of Terra itself, and afterwards once we reached our new lives in the Great Eye.

 

It's actually Kibre who tells Abaddon that he didn't believe rumors of his death.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

Thank you for the clarification, I was unsure if I was remembering correctly. Down side to audiobooks is its a pita to go back and try to find a passage youre looking for 

[Lord_Caerolion]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

IIRC in the book the serfs repair Zephon's armour, fixing holes, etc. instead of giving him a new suit.

While true, there’s limits to what serfs can do. If something has been reduced to a mangled ruin, but there’s a functional suit available, you take the functional suit, not what for what’s essentially a full rebuild. Then again, I could just be misremembering. 

[DarkChaplain]

Bottom line re: Zephon still is that we have to actively handwave away or ignore something that was at the very least badly communicated / unclear from the writing itself. It's not at all unreasonable to assume that someone somewhere messed up while handing down the torch.

[Nagashsnee]

38 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Bottom line re: Zephon still is that we have to actively handwave away or ignore something that was at the very least badly communicated / unclear from the writing itself. It's not at all unreasonable to assume that someone somewhere messed up while handing down the torch.

What's crazy is how easy this was/is to fix, a simple line on how he requested re assignment to a company, or how experiences members of the sanguinary guard were put in charge of new blood troops or anything like that. Throw in Land saying something like 'its a shame i could not repair your army as i did your hands Zephon' and its all done or Zephon thinking how much better then new mkvi is and its all set and done.

 

No easy fix to the kibre thing tho. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

The hardback release is listed on amazon as 480 pages.  By comparison Echoes was 560 pages.  Saturnine 464.