Army List Competitive Black Legion

[strawberry fist]

Hello all, I’m looking to go to a tournament in a couple of months and want to make sure everything is ready, painted and playtested a good few times before I go. I know the new chapter approved will be out in January so may undo some of the comments/ way the list is built but what are people’s thoughts on the following  competitive list for the Black Legion? It’s 2000 points. Thanks in advance

 

Spoiler

6CP Strike Force

Pre game spending = 4CP (warlord trait, relic, terminator relic, warlord- strat) 

2CP starting 

 

Battalion Detachment

Black Legion

 

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler 

Warlord (-1CP)

 

Lord Discordant on Helstalker (-1CP strat) 

-Helstalker autocannon, Mark of Tzeentch, Techno-virus injector

Warlord (-1CP strat)- Flames of Spite

 

Master of Possession (-1CP Relic)

-Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

 

Troops

Cultists Mob 

. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. Cultist Champion: Cultist firearm

 

Legionaries 

-Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Legionaries

-Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Power fist

. 4x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 4x Astartes chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Legionaries 

-Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Elites

Chaos Terminator Squad (-1CP) 

-Mark of Slaanesh

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation (-1CP), Combi-melta, Power fist, Trophies of the Long War

 

Possessed 

-5x Possessed: 5x Hideous mutations

 

Fast Attack

Chaos Spawn

 

Heavy Support

Chaos Vindicator

-Havoc launcher, Vindicator siege shield

 

Havocs

-Mark of Tzeentch

. Havoc Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun

. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon

 

Dedicated Transport

Chaos Rhino

-Havoc launrcher

 

[Verbal Underbelly]

My main comment is to make one of your Tzeentch legionaries carry a missile launcher instead of a plasma gun for the Skyshrike strategem.  

 

I maybe wouldn't bother with the havoc launchers and try and free up some points somewhere to get a second chaos spawn... you're paying a lot of points for Marks on min sized squads. Might be worth rolling your 2 x 5 man Tzeentch dudes into a single squad. Reduces your points costs and you'll have a respectsble objective camper with plasma and ML. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Verbal Underbelly

[strawberry fist]

I had thought about combining the squads together, though I would like to put the khorne and one of the tzeentch legionaries squads in the rhino to move up to midfield objectives quickly while the second tzeentch legionary squad moves up.
 

I can drop the  havoc launchers but that would only get me 10 points, I’d have to unmark one of the tzeentch squads as well to get up to 30 points. Then spend 5 to upgrade to a missile launcher from the plasma and spend the last 25 points on a second spawn. What do you think?

[Prot]

If this is strictly competitive, here's my 2 meltabombs worth:

 

1. Too elite. You need more board coverage, and blocking. I do like Legionaries with Black Legion (The turn off ObSec strat is MASSIVE. I don't know how well versed you are with Black Legion but learn to use this strat at key moments and it can potentially steal you a win.) However, you may have too many for my personal taste. Consider Accursed cultists, even if just to block out.

 

2. The Disco lord. I use him a lot... but in the right lists. He is extremely good but here's the thing... again this is just MY experiences - this isn't the right list for him. My experience tells me you want to be aggressive, at the right time, with the Disco lord. However, he is MUCH more potent with the right mark/WL trait/Relic combo's. For example if you give mortals on 6's, and re-roll wounds, he becomes next level. Second, he really should be used in a list with an 'escort'. In the competitive market he actually will die very quickly without proper protection. (The easiest of which is a Venomcrawler(s))

 

3. Heavies: Vindicator. I'll be honest, I've only used it in one game, because I just find the Predator with its Toughness boost and even just the pair of Soul Crushers can do some good work and it doesn't need to expose itself.

 

Put a missile in the Havocs for reasons mentioned. (I don't like Havocs myself, I only play them with Iron Warriors for reasons not valid here.)

 

4. Spawn are underrated. Your opponent has to focus them. I don't know if you've used them yet, but you will quickly find if you are a bit cagey with them, they become supremely annoying for the points I think they might be near the top of my 'value' list. Speed, healing, decent (if swingy) damage. T5. They can't be ignored. Best 75 points in my lists on some days.

 

 

Overall I'd make other minor tweaks, but a lot of this is personal. Just at a glance I think your lack of speed and or deepstrike is going to be a bit of an issue. (A good player is not going to let you drop in with a blob of termies, so you are slogging it). 

 

I highly recommend you think more about your secondaries. Plan around this. Play test it. You may find your list will change a good 10% or so based on what you find in your games.

 

Hopefully there's something in here you can take with you. If nothing else, just think about secondary scoring with your list. My advice does come from playing a lot of CSM games with Black Legion, Iron Warriors, and Red Corsairs. I know Abaddon can get you pretty far, but you still gotta score. That's the Abaddon down side, you find your lists getting pretty small/elite with him. So please play this out a few times.

 

 

[strawberry fist]

Thank you for the in depth reply Prot, there is a lot to have a look at. I have thought that speed is definitely and issue with the list and was something I wanted to fix though I didn't know what to take out for it. 

 

I've only started playing Black Legion within the last month or so, so I've not had much practice with it but wanted to make sure that I stood a good chance, not expecting to top the event (though it would be nice) but I would like to have the opportunity to do well. I do like the Heralds of Doom strat, but it didn't come into play the one game I have had though I can imagine it will be very useful! 

 

I have enjoyed using the disco lord though as you've mentioned he doesn't have a 'bodyguard' unit to go along with so he could be swapped out for a squad of four bikes and 2 spawn to join the existing one. In regards to the Vindicator, I know what you mean about the toughness boost, both the vindicator and predator are toughness 8 which is nice though the predator has the range. I could drop one of the four bikes, vindicator and havocs and add 2 predators with 2 soulshatter lascannons and 2 sponson lascannons.

 

Objective wise I was thinking

- Despoil Dominions

- Engage on all fronts

- Unsure on the third one (Assassinate/ Grind possibly)

I've edited the above list to try and include a few things mentioned, what do you think?

Spoiler

Black Legion - 2000 points

 

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler (-1CP warlord trait)

Merciless Overseer, Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred

 

Master of Possession (-1CP relic)

Liber Hereticus,

Mark of Slaanesh,

Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh

 

Troops

Cultists Mob

. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. Cultist Champion

. cultist firearm

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Power fist

. 4x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 4x Astartes chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Elites

Chaos Terminator Squad (-1CP Relic)

Mark of Slaanesh

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Combi-melta, Power fist, Trophies of the Long War

 

Possessed

. 5x Possessed: 5x Hideous mutations

 

Fast Attack

Chaos Bikers

Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne

. Biker Champion: Astartes chainsword

. 2x Chaos Biker w/ astartes chainsword: 2x Astartes chainsword, 2x Combi-bolter, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Chaos Spawn

. 3x Chaos Spawn: 3x Hideous mutations

 

Heavy Support

Chaos Predator Annihilator

. Twin soulshatter lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Chaos Predator Annihilator

. Twin soulshatter lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Dedicated Transport

Chaos Rhino

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by strawberry fist

[Verbal Underbelly]

Looks like a much more balanced and flexible list. You've got unit reduncy in there now.

 

I'd still favour a vindicator over one of the predators but that's down to personal taste. 

[strawberry fist]

Thank you Prot and Verbal Underbelly for your help, I've run the list a couple of times over the last two weeks and enjoyed playing it. It managed to win both games I played, though it can get stuck in the midfield when playing against another combat army. Engage was a good secondary that was consistently scoring though Despoil Dominions wasn't as high scoring as I imagined it would be. 

[Snazzy]

I have echos of Prot's review.  I don't see what the Disco Lord adds in this list.  His points would be better used, IMO on something with some speed.  Raptors, Bikes, or maybe even another Rhino.  Is it to use Lord of the Traitor Legions?

 

I'd also suggest the Balefire Tome upgrade on the Tzeentch Legionaries.  Warp Time can help to mitigate some of your movement issues.  Could be i'm also unused to seeing CSM lists without Psykers.  

[Karhedron]

On 12/23/2022 at 11:21 PM, Verbal Underbelly said:

you're paying a lot of points for Marks on min sized squads. Might be worth rolling your 2 x 5 man Tzeentch dudes into a single squad. Reduces your points costs and you'll have a respectsble objective camper with plasma and ML. 

 

MoT is actually one mark that works better on MSU than big squads. Ignoring your first failed save is a bonus that works better the more times you can proc it. 

[strawberry fist]

This is a slight alteration to the above list, I've swapped out the spawn and the cultist to add in a Tzeentch terminator sorcerer. This gives me access to the Warp Craft Warp Ritual secondary which may help with accumulating more points although it gives me less models to hold objectives/ cause disruption. What do you guys think?

 

Spoiler

Void Dragons 2000 points

 

Legion: Black Legion

 

+ HQ +

 

Abaddon the Despoiler

Warlord Trait (-1CP) -  3. Merciless Overseer, 5. Eternal Vendetta, 6. Paragon of Hatred, Stratagem: Warlord Trait

 

Master of Possession

Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh, Stratagem: Relic

Relic (-1CP) - Liber Hereticus

 

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Mark of Tzentch, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force sword, Stratagem:

Relic (-1CP) Veilbreaker Plate

 

Troops

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Power fist

. 4x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 4x Astartes chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Elites

Chaos Terminator Squad

Mark of Slaanesh

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Power fist

 

Possessed

. 5x Possessed: 5x Hideous mutations

 

Fast Attack

Chaos Bikers  X3

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Biker Champion: Chainsword

. 2x Chaos Biker w/ chainsword: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Combi-bolter, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Heavy Support

Chaos Predator Annihilator

. Two Soulshatter lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Chaos Predator Annihilator

. Two Soulshatter lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Dedicated Transport

Chaos Rhino

 

[Prot]

I like this list a lot more. You're able to fill the board, you don't have a lot of unnecessary point in the list.

 

You might as well get Abe and Termies in a tournament because if the rumours are correct I'm thining Abe and Termies are getting substantially hit with increases (just a rumour). 

 

Also I think this list moves a bit better, and it is certainly a good idea to have access to the basic psychic tree. Access to a Death Hex against a key close combat enemy (I really struggle against Custodes bricks) is huge if well timed.

 

The only 'tweak' for thought I'd bring up is a Daemon Prince for your Psychic Interrogation. You might be fine the way you are, but with a Legionaire tweak or vanilla lascannons on the Pred's, he might fit. He's a beast, a great use for a relic, and with that psychic power, it's a bit easier for him to get off an interrogation against a cagey opponent. Plus he has the flexibility of picking on something weak. (You can't be too aggressive with DP's these days, but they are far more capable of ripping an unsupported unit apart than a Termie Psyker).

 

Otherwise, I think again the bikes are pretty essential in your list, and if played well you can have a great time with that list as is. Let us know how it goes!

[strawberry fist]

Thanks for the reply. I’ll have to try it out and see how it goes. Just got to wait the points to drop to see how badly this list is hit. Fingers crossed it’s not hit too badly! 

[Verbal Underbelly]

It's a good and thematic list. You might struggle against aircraft though. 

[strawberry fist]

15 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

It's a good and thematic list. You might struggle against aircraft though. 

Possibly, with the new points changes I can swap one legionaires plasma out for a missile launcher as they’re both free now! As for points it turns out i now have 15 points going spare, now where to spend them… 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

If youre gonna stick with havocs they gotta have mark of slaanesh.  MoT does nothing for havocs but MoS allows you to use murderous perfection for more reliable output.  

[strawberry fist]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:43 PM, SanguinaryGuardsman said:

If youre gonna stick with havocs they gotta have mark of slaanesh.  MoT does nothing for havocs but MoS allows you to use murderous perfection for more reliable output.  

I think I’m going to go with the list above. Thinking to take the icon off the bikes and add the spare 15 points to make a legionaire squad psychic. 
 

Additional thought, would a squad of 5 raptors (no mark) be better than 3 bikes. In theory maybe better to get behind enemy lines?? 

[Toldavf]

for the price of raptors consider chaos spawn, they are really nasty for such a cheap squad. 

[strawberry fist]

If I do that then I could run a squad of 3 spawn (drop balefire tome too) and a squad of cultists to hold the back field objective.

[Prot]

Well the only reason I run Raptors is as action monkeys. So just keep in mind you can’t do that with spawn. But yea, I think spawn are a better, economical choice overall.  

[strawberry fist]

I was thinking of using raptors as a unit to hide in opponents deployment zone to earn 3 points a turn for behind enemy lines and possibly despoil/ raise a banner. Can deep strike them in the corner or behind a building where they can’t be seen. 

[Prot]

16 hours ago, strawberry fist said:

I was thinking of using raptors as a unit to hide in opponents deployment zone to earn 3 points a turn for behind enemy lines and possibly despoil/ raise a banner. Can deep strike them in the corner or behind a building where they can’t be seen. 

Actually that’s what I’m using single Oblits for in my IW. But I could use it in my Black Legion too… just Abe is so bloody expensive I have to cut something. 

[strawberry fist]

8 hours ago, Prot said:

Actually that’s what I’m using single Oblits for in my IW. But I could use it in my Black Legion too… just Abe is so bloody expensive I have to cut something. 

That’s an interesting point, there would be less bodies and a smaller footprint for the unit making it easier to hide. Also the onlbliterator is toughness 5 and has a 2 up save so could be more durable? Something to experiment with.

[strawberry fist]

Thought I’d do a little update on the list. It’s been going well but trying to find the most effect version of the list. Ive been running an obliterator for a while but having one by itself hasn’t been effective so I’ve elected to drop it for a sorcerer in terminator armour. What does everyone think to the updated list? 
 

Spoiler

1,995pts, 1CP

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type -  Troops

 

Black Legion

 

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler (-1CP)

Merciless Overseer, Eternal Vendetta, Paragon of Hatred,

 

Dark Apostle (-1CP relic)

 Chaos Undivided, Cloak of Conquest, Illusory Supplication,

. 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon

 

Master of Possession (-1CP relic)

Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh,

 

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

 Chaos Undivided, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force sword, Veilbreaker Plate, Warptime

 

Troops

Cultists Mob 

. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

.Cultist Champion - Cultist firearm

 

Legionaries

 Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Legionary w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Legionary w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

 

Legionaries 

Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Power fist

. 3x Legionary w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Legionary w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Legionaries

Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Power fist

. 3x Legionary w/ astartes chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. Legionary w/ heavy chainaxe

 

Elites

Chaos Terminator Squad - Mark of Slaanesh

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter

. Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Combi-melta, Power fist, Trophies of the Long War

 

Possessed

X5 possessed 

 

Heavy Support

Chaos Predator Annihilator

 Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher

. Two Soulburner lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Chaos Predator Annihilator

 Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher

. Two Soulburner lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Dedicated Transport

Chaos Rhino 

Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher