Balance Dataslate and Feild manual up. How do you think we fair?

[Kassill]

Firstly, Happy New Year to all in the Fang! 

Arks of Omen is just around the corner, and with it are some pretty popular rumors. Namely the loss of Armor of Contempt and points drop/free wargear for Marines. Many have stated both here and elsewhere online that a drop in durability means an increase in raw power must exist to keep Marines relevant. 

Last I checked Space Wolves, like many Marines, were sitting below 45% WR. 

So, with cheaper options and free wargear, where are we speculating the best bang-for-buck will be going forward? We've already seen the new force org chart for Arks, we just don't know raw points yet. 

My first thought is a return/continuation of Wolf Guard w/Jump Packs + Storm Shields + weapon of choice. I'm also curious/optimistic about Wolf Guard TDA kitted to the brim. And lastly, could a drop in points/free gear make TWC viable or are they still too much of a liability and clunky? 

Those are my first impressions/thoughts, I would  love to hear yours.

So, warm yourself by the hearth and join the conversation! (Bonus points if you show us what you're working on/planning for the new year)

[Karhedron]

We will have to see if all wargear is free but Wulfen with TH/SS are good anyway. The loss of AoC won't effect them because of Storm Shields and will make their targets just a little bot squishier. Any points drops on them will be a bonus.

 

Wolf Guard (both TDA and PA) could potentially be winners depending on what wargear becomes free.

 

TWC are good in many respects but are hampered by the movement restrictions imposed by not being infantry. I think people's mileage with them tends to depend on what terrain you use.

[TiguriusX]

Plasma inceptors will make a huge comeback if rumors are true about point drops

[Guest Triszin]

I would love for hounds of morkai/reivers to be usable.

 

I know it won't happen but if they could get moved to a troop slot.

[Kassill]

On 1/2/2023 at 3:43 PM, Triszin said:

I would love for hounds of morkai/reivers to be usable.

 

I know it won't happen but if they could get moved to a troop slot.

I was just talking to a friend about this unit. Shame they lack any real punch or function outside of the very niche role they have. 

[Havok13]

With the new points, anyone considering the SW flyers now?

[Karhedron]

I am not sure the flyers have come down enough to make a difference (~10-15% depending on options). The Repulsor on the other hand has come down by a hefty chunk and is now looking pretty good value for all the guns it brings to the table.

 

Wolf Guard of various sorts look to be big winners. My Pack Leaders are mostly running combi meltas and power fists which means they get a huge discount. Our Terminators are pretty good with free upgrades, especially if you want to spam combi-weapons on them.

 

Long Fangs get a lot of free weapons now and even MMs are cheaper. You can fit a lot of firepower into a drop pod and still leave room for a cheap support Character.

[Havok13]

Yeah but it's 225 for flyers with all/any weapons. Multi-melta lascannons etc. So that's a massive price difference. 

 

Long fangs have gone up 5 points each though, overall cheaper when considering the weapon discount. 

 

Wolf Guard terminators are definitely the winners.

[DanPesci]

WGTDA still seem good and flexible which is great.

 

As someone already running old grey hunters as my troops, 108pts (?? I think ??) for the following seems pretty good, as the free wargear really adds up (in fact all the combi weapons dropping from 10 to 0 on the WGpack leaders is very nice across all our old packs)

 

108pts

2x BG/BP/CS

1x MG/BP/CS

1x BG/PP/CS

Pack Leader - P.Fist

WGBL - C.weapon/P.fist.

Wolf Standard

 

124 Points gets you a terminator with any wargear (so shield to tank possibly? or go C.fist/C.melta for aggro ha)

The skyclaw packs are now 110pts for 4 meltagun shots and 2 powefists too.

 

My 2k list is pretty much all kitted out firstborn (outside of 1 bladeguard squad) and after jotting up the savings in pts and free wargear im about 250pts below where I was before (plus about 30-40 pts in free P.pistol and P.fist upgrades if I wanted). So safe to say theyre gonna be a lot more killy for the points (albeit easier to kill due to losing AoC so who knows where we end up atm). 

 

 

 

 

 

[Havok13]

First Born SW iron priest is tasty now for 70 points.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/05/metawatch-warhammer-40000-new-year-new-balance-dataslate-new-munitorum-field-manual/

 

Title says it all. They are here folks what do we think?

 

My personal first thoughts are:

Points-

-Holy All Father my collection is going to plummet in point value.

-140 point contemptors make me happy

-Tcav are cheap now...

-225 for the flyers has me wondering if they might be workable

-why are land raiders 245?

 

Dataslate

AoC gone

-not sure if this makes me happy or not it was a bear to remember sometimes but it helped with survival. 

 

"Add the following bullet point to the Detachment Abilities of an Adeptus Astartes Detachment:
■ ‘At the end of your Command phase, if one or more Adeptus Astartes Troops units from your army are within range of an objective marker you 
control, that objective marker remains under your control, even if there are no models within range of it, unless your opponent controls it at the end of any 
subsequent phase.

 

This bit is really good. Now we can push forward and not lose out objectives.

 

The Doctrine change I feel doesn't help us as much as a heavy support focused doctrine

 

What do we think Happy news or Sad news or somewhere in the middle

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Just realized this is awful similar to the new year post which I overlooked. Feel free to merge if that seems to be true. 

[Prot]

I was on the verge of pulling my TWC from my fledging Wolves army, but now it's definitely back in (with shields).

 

Otherwise I love Longfangs even more.

 

Aggressors are looking good. Bolts, and +1 to hit on charging fists. I just like the overall utility on them now. 

 

Definitely considering Termies as well now. (Now that shields are bigger again, and Hammers are good)

 

All marines are getting reductions, but for Wolves, I think those are my favourite changes. Perhaps loading up the Impulsors helps as well just because I always thought they were ridiculously overpriced. 

 

On the fence with: Wulfen, and Vanguard Vets.

[TiguriusX]

6 hours ago, Rune Priest Jbickb said:

Just realized this is awful similar to the new year post which I overlooked. Feel free to merge if that seems to be true. 

 

Threads merged per request.

 

My first official action ever taken

 

[Tokugawa]

SW could sneak tons of free wargears via the wolfguard route. e.g. A long fang squad could have a terminator leader with cyclone missiles and storm shield, with cost of only 34pts. Other chapter can't do this.

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

SW could sneak tons of free wargears via the wolfguard route. e.g. A long fang squad could have a terminator leader with cyclone missiles and storm shield, with cost of only 34pts. Other chapter can't do this.

 

A TDA WGPL with a Master Crafted Assault Cannon is even more fun! 

[DanPesci]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

A TDA WGPL with a Master Crafted Assault Cannon is even more fun! 

 

Was sat last night theory crafting a list with heavy bolter longfangs with AC WGTDA, hadnt realised you could make it master crafted. 

 

Quote

SW could sneak tons of free wargears via the wolfguard route. e.g. A long fang squad could have a terminator leader with cyclone missiles and storm shield, with cost of only 34pts. Other chapter can't do this.

 

Also free special weapon and powerfist on the pack leader. You could drop the shield on the TDA and give him a chainfist, and for 172 points have a unit that can shoot and fight in CC. The SS is great for tanking on him though. You could potentially spam a few of these and just sit in devastator doctrine all game.

 

The one thing that we didnt benefit as much from is the changes to doctrines dont get us to assault doctrine any faster, id imagine most SW players are just going to get to the AD as fast as possible unless really spamming long fangs. But being able to move off objectives is nice as we can really push the midfield now.

 

At first look I think if you are playing firstborn we have done very well compared to the other supplement chapters (Dark Angels did OK too if you like deathwing), just due to the amount of extra wargear we have access to on the older units - not so much if you are playing primaris wolves (maybe? I cant comment too much here as dont run much primaris)

 

The free combi weapons army wide is very nice, either 5pts or 10pt savings on a lot of units, and makes WGPL an autoinclude for me.

 

5x JPWG with combi meltas and lightning claws are 130pts now (20 points more than a skyclaw pack with 4 meltas).

 

Grey Hunters Vs Bloodclaws - What do people think? BC now cheaper by a point, have much the same wargear options and +1A, but GH have boltgun for more range, and an effective built in reroll 1s adv/charge now because there's no reason to not take the free banner on them.

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

4 minutes ago, DanPesci said:

At first look I think if you are playing firstborn we have done very well compared to the other supplement chapters (Dark Angels did OK too if you like deathwing), just due to the amount of extra wargear we have access to on the older units - not so much if you are playing primaris wolves (maybe? I cant comment too much here as dont run much primaris)

 

Intercessor Pack Leaders get free Thunder Hammers which is pretty nice on a 3A model (4 with Shock Assault). The loss of AoC means that the AP on some of the Intercessor variant bolters is more relevant again now. Claws and Hunters get more free toys but 90 points for a 5-man Intercessor pack with AGL and Thunder Hammer is not too shabby at all (especially with sticky ObjSec).

[Karhedron]

Funnily enough, Reivers/Fangs of Morkai actually look worthy of consideration now. 80/85 points for a 5-man squad make them one of the cheapest squads in the list. Take free Grav chutes on the Reivers and they can Deep Strike on T2/3 to snag an Objective and then put their combat knives to work once the Assault Doctrine kicks in. Shame Fangs of Morkai can't take Grav Chutes but they are now cheaper than any of our Troops units and mess with Psykers so might have a bit of mileage.

[Captain Idaho]

My issue with that is they just can't push any opponents off of objectives. Maybe in a list that eschews Troops using the new Detachment rules, I can see them existing in an Elites heavy army, but if you're paying points on Troops at all they just become wasted points. 

 

As cheap Elites objectives holders in an all Elites army, maybe they are somewhat interesting. But then I'd rather use an actual Troops choice and the "Sticky objectives" rule to move on than babysit 80pts on an objective now.

[TiguriusX]

1 hour ago, DanPesci said:

 

The one thing that we didnt benefit as much from is the changes to doctrines dont get us to assault doctrine any faster, id imagine most SW players are just going to get to the AD as fast as possible unless really spamming long fangs. But being able to move off objectives is nice as we can really push the midfield now.

 

 

If you build around Wulfen as your melee this isn't as bad as you think.

 

Remember that Wulfen are in assault doctrine all the time. 

 

You can stay in devastator (long fang heavy builds) or tactical (combi plasma/melta and plasma inceptor builds) and shoot away with the bulk of your army while the Wulfen still perform.

 

I ran warded and whirlwind of rage...if I got charged I usually had defensible terrain so hit on 3s...if I charged I was hitting on 4s (3 with keen senses)

 

Double exploding 6s all the time is all the really mattered

[Guest Triszin]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

Funnily enough, Reivers/Fangs of Morkai actually look worthy of consideration now. 80/85 points for a 5-man squad make them one of the cheapest squads in the list. Take free Grav chutes on the Reivers and they can Deep Strike on T2/3 to snag an Objective and then put their combat knives to work once the Assault Doctrine kicks in. Shame Fangs of Morkai can't take Grav Chutes but they are now cheaper than any of our Troops units and mess with Psykers so might have a bit of mileage.

They still need to be troops/shifted out of the elite slot.

Neither are good enough to be in elite, when elite is so crowded already.

 

I do appreciate the discounts however

[Prot]

I get the argument for/against Morkai/Reivers, however Morkai have these little buffs that are (nearly?) free. Psykers in Chaos are huge, and although you can't grav shoot in, the ability to start sniping a character psyker that is hiding behind a squad, trying to score Interrogation, is not a bad counter move. I see this a lot in my meta, and now that AoC is gone, the ability to start plinking away at -2 isn't bad.

 

They are still good action monkeys otherwise. 

 

As mentioned with Wulfen coming in a same edge (within 6") this could be a great harrassment combo. I do like the Sky Claws too which are going to have a free fist at the least, but the trade off is the Psychic mini nerf, and the ability to put pressure on a weaker psyker early... think Warlocks/Farseers/Inquisitors (see a bit of competitive play locally to snipe the easy Interrogation points).

 

I think it's worth trying at least.

 

Still now that I look at the Termie options and the free wargear.... wow there's some huge potential there. I don't understand why, but with the free wargear, they out perform Chaos termies imho now. That's huge, because Wolves Termies are actually even more flexible in build. 

 

I do think the coming release of World Eaters will take some bite out of Wolves in CC (pun intended)... so getting back to a more balanced list might be a perfect role for the Terminators ultimate flexibility and wargear coming in at free. (I'm a big combiweapon user in Chaos)

[Prot]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Intercessor Pack Leaders get free Thunder Hammers which is pretty nice on a 3A model (4 with Shock Assault). The loss of AoC means that the AP on some of the Intercessor variant bolters is more relevant again now. Claws and Hunters get more free toys but 90 points for a 5-man Intercessor pack with AGL and Thunder Hammer is not too shabby at all (especially with sticky ObjSec).

 

Yea, when it comes to troops I thought FOR SURE this would be the time my Heavy Intercessors would stay in the list, but just assault intercessors got a lot better for Wolves (which may be the best users of a T.Hammer). Such a good choice with perhaps a cheap squad with infiltration.

 

16 minutes ago, Triszin said:

They still need to be troops/shifted out of the elite slot.

Neither are good enough to be in elite, when elite is so crowded already.

 

I do appreciate the discounts however

 

Well don't forget with the Arks of Omen detachment you have a minimum 6 elite slots, and the elite characters get their own spot. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

Yea, when it comes to troops I thought FOR SURE this would be the time my Heavy Intercessors would stay in the list, but just assault intercessors got a lot better for Wolves (which may be the best users of a T.Hammer). Such a good choice with perhaps a cheap squad with infiltration.

 

Good point. I still have some Assault Intercessors left over from Indomitus. Time to start painting!