10th co thread

[greatcrusade08]

Since i was getting back into some marines, i figured (thanks to Idaho) id run some theoretical's on running a tenth co themed list.

I appreciate 10th edition will be on the cards late this year, but we can adapt later if necessary. 

context:

• Ultramarines or successors only
• Scout or phobos/vanguard units and themed support units only.

 

I would like this thread to be a place to discuss unit combinations, tactics, unit review and analysis etc, but also a place people feel welcome to comment (even critically) on the ideas of the day. I will probably create an article later on to add all this info in.

I have used scouts for a long time and tinkered with all phobos for a while under the new release. I have always considered 'scout' armies should be small units, expendable and have hammer and anvil elements (fast moving parts and snipers/campers), i will start with this direction and see where added experience takes me.

With arks of omen coming, we only need a single HQ which is good for marines, as is lowered points costs. Add in the removal of tax units, taking 3 scout squads as required elites choice and can fill the rest of your army as you wish. Although to be fair i suspect there will be a smattering of phobos troops choices being taken.

Given there are so many details and combinations im going to document as much as possible, more for my own benefit, but if it helps others that would be great too.

 

My first question, is can you take a unit of 10 scouts, combat squad them and have half start in a storm and half on the table. What are the limits on this, can you reserve one half in the transport?

 

Lets start with HQ choices.

Phobos captain

• space marines with cloaks = 1+ save in cover, nice!!!
• concealed deployment.
• omni scrambler, no reserves within 12"
• Reroll 1s to units of snipers/eliminators nearby
• Dmg 3 sniper weapon, only one shot at S4 though (can this be improved, rerolled?)

 

Vanguard warlord traits:

• Shoot and fade: one unit within 6" can move after firing, using current rules for terrain, good for a unit moving into cover shooting and moving back where they cannot be targeted, good combo for eliminators/snipers. However the -1 to hit for heavy weapons applies, somewhat mitigated by rerolling 1s from captain.
• Lord of deceit: Redeploy three units after both players set up. Could be interesting way to commit to an alpha strike and then lift the units back to safety should you lose the roll. Be good some invictor warsuits perhaps.
• Master of vanguard: Units within 6" get +1 to charge, move, advance or fall back. Could maybe be used with reivers arriving via grav chute. 8" charge (42%) is much easier than 9" (28%), especially with a CP reroll (66% and 48% respectively)
• Stealth adept: Enemy units cannot target captain if he is not closest model. No point imo, with look out sir, I suppose could protect him from enemy snipers, but not something you get lots of use from.
• Target priority: Unit within 6" get +1 to hit, good buff on its own but also great way to mitigate an opponents -1, you want those las fusils hitting on 2s, stacks with rerolling 1s within 6" too.
• Master marksman: Adds 1 to dmg of his weapon, again not enough bang too make it worth taking especially given S4 of his own gun. needing 4/5s to wound most characters

 

My thoughts: Lord of deceit is hands down most powerful trait, the ability to push three units forward for an alpha strike and dump them in reserve or redeploy them should you not get first turn. One question is whether you can redeploy using concealed deployment?

Other traits that may be worth looking at are master of strategy to keep a unit in tactical doctrine, however i feel dev doctrine combined with snipers/elims would have been much better imo. Adept of codex always worth taking for CP regen.

 

Relics: 

• Ghostweave cloak: Can move through models, -1 to hit: More survivability, but again look out sir should work in most cases.
• Purgatorous: Very tasty pistol, yet i feel you want to get more from his main weapon and not get too close
• Reliquary of Gathalamor: Very underused item imo, psykers within 18" have -1 to cast, and if fail a psychic test on 4+ suffer D3 wounds.
• Armour indomitus: 2+ save and one off 3++. Stacks with cloak (ap-2 still means a 2+ save). Very tasty combination, but again running as a backline buff character im less concerned about adding a bit more survivability.
• Honour Vehement: gives +1 attack for a core unit within 6", doesnt stack with shock assault which only makes it useful in protracted combat, not ideal for 10th co tactics imo.
• Vox espiritum: Awesome 3" buff to auras. so thats a 9" reroll 1s to hit and can stack with many of the vanguard warlord traits

Summary: He is better as a backline buff character, if you want a more combat orientated HQ perhaps a librarian or reiver Lt. With that in mind wont need to worry about his lack of combat power (no power weapons) and can avoid the soldiers blade relic for 

 

Macragge relics

• Helm of censure: reroll hit and wound rolls of a 1 and against marines or chaos marines adds 1 to hit and wound, great for getting more buck from his dmg3 bang.
• Soldiers blade: S+1, ap-4 2dmg super gladius. A great way to make a phobos character more combat orientated, but far better on a reiver Lt IMO.
• Tarentian cloak: 5++ and D3 wound regen per turn. Previous comments about survivability apply imo.
• Sanctic halo: 3++ and can deny a psychic power per turn

 

combinations:

• Master Marksman Warlord Trait and the Censured Helm would make for a credible sniper in the back line whilst giving reroll ones to Core units.
• Lord of deceit Warlord Trait and Vox Espiritum allows for redeploy of three units before game starts and gives the captain a 9" reroll ones bubble
• Master of Vanguard Warlord Trait and Soldiers Blade for more aggressive play, better of chance of charging from deepstrike and a solid combat ability from the captain.

 

Noteable mention goes to special issue item seal of oath, units within 6" reroll hits and wounds against one chosen enemy unit.

Choosing relics is always a toss up for me, if i cant get enough use out of it id rather have the CP for strategems.

Vox espiritum is very interesting to make the most of his buffing aspects, a 9" bubble is 18" in diameter, which can cover a lot of units (they don't have to be wholly within either), its a good all round use item than will see value in every game. Helm of censure worth a look if you play a lot of marines. Reliquary if you face a lot of psykers.

 

Place holders:

Phobos librarian

Telion

Lt in phobos armour

reiver Lt

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by greatcrusade08

[Slave to Darkness]

2 hours ago, greatcrusade08 said:

 

• Ultramarines or successors only

 

White Consuls, better colour scheme. 

[greatcrusade08]

I prefer novamarines myself. 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Giving a Phobos Captain the Master Marksman Warlord Trait and the Censured Helm would make for a credible sniper in the back line whilst dishing out reroll ones to Core units.

 

But like you say, S4 makes it a fairly inconsistent weapon against the more tougher opponents that commonly within the game nowadays. Still, a single missed save and 4 damage goes through.

[greatcrusade08]

Ill add it, as you say it is viable, worth trying at least once :)

 

Edit: im a bit rusty, but you can give a second HQ a Warlord Trait right?

Edited January 20, 2023 by greatcrusade08

[Tacitus]

The problem with a 10th Company list is:  Its not there yet.  Assume you use the AOR as a guide - Your Elites are limited to Invictor Suits and Reivers.  Invictors aren't bad.  Reivers are.  You only have a Suppresor Squad FA choice because otherwise you wouldn't have any.   Your only HS slot choice is Eliminators which are 3-and-only-3.  You don't get a 10th Company Chaplain.  Your LT's can't infiltrate, and your Captains can't Deep Strike.  Your LT's can't infiltrate, your Libby's can't deep strike.  Your HQ's don't synergize with each other, or the same units.  If you go first born your HQ's are even less synergistic.   The best you can do is a Jump Packing Smash Cap/Chap and LT with some Reivers.  Which is also the only way you're getting any sort of fight phase out of your HQ's.   We still need the other half along with the next codex and revamp of current options to do it. 

[greatcrusade08]

yeah 10th co lists are always limiting, and always have been. History tells me they aren't unplayabvle, however 40k has changed, so i am cautious.

i honestly think under AoO 1hq will be enough, probably a sniper captain.

i thimk reviers, whilst bad do have one ood use:  a cheap 80pt deepstriking unit for backline objective capturing. Although tbf land speeder storms have outflank so can duble up on that role if needed.

There are a lot of viable tactics for objective play, one of which is to put infiltrators onto objectives and use the strat (cant remeber name) to remove them in the next turn. If they are sticky objectives thats great. I need to go down the rabbit hole on strategem use for this playbook, but ill get there over time

 

edit: heres my initial WIP list

 

Captain in phobos armour

• Warlord: lord of deceit
• Relic: vox espiritum

 

4 x 5 infiltrators

• Helix gauntlet

 

2 x invictor warsuit

• Autocannon

10 reviers (combat squads for deepstrike)

• bolt carbines

3 x 10 scout squads (all combat squads), all with camo-cloaks

• Sergeant with power fist and combi-melta
• 4 bolters
• Missile launcher
• 4 snipers

 

5 scout bikes

• Sergeant with power fist

2 x 3 scout bikes

• 3 grenade launcher
• Sergeant with combi-melta.

 

3 x 3 eliminators

• Las fusil

 

3 x Land speeder storm

 

how it works (in theory): 5 scout bikes and 2 warsuits deploy in opponents face, if i dont get first turn, they redeploy.

Anvil units are 3 eliminator sqauds, 3 x 5 snipers and captain, everything else zips around, fast moving MSU so hard to peg down, lots of outflank potential with storms.

play the objective game!!

Edited January 22, 2023 by greatcrusade08

[Tacitus]

Reivers aren't troops unfortunately so they don't get the sticky ObSec.  And they don't get Eviscerators, or plasma pistols etc. Nor do they get to "count as" Jump packs if they take both chutes and graps.  Reivers would get a whole lot better if they were even as good as Assault Marines, which I think aren't necessarily bad. 

 

Honestly, the entire Marines list could be fairly limiting right now.  I have trouble making a second list.  Every time I keep coming back to the same core, and it feels like all I'm really doing is changing the drapes on the windows.    First born are in a bad place by the Scout to Elites Move, and the lack of Support characters in various iterations.  A trip back to the Index with Terminator Lieutenants, Champions, Apothecaries, and Ancients that then get Deathwing/Wolf Guard keywords. instead of limiting them to the Deathwing would help.  Filling out the Primaris line would also go a long way - a Jump/Fly Fight Primaris, Gravis LT.  Primaris Drop Pods.   Which could be an interesting shenanigan.  Tacs in Pods - half drop on Turn 1 on empty objectives midfield.  Shoot the opponent off their backfield objectives.  Turn 2 the second wave of TacPods land on those, as the rest of their army is racing for the midfield.  Hopefully. 

But right now, every time I try and make something different I don't like something that comes up.  I tried a bunch of terminators and the core force just got too big of a footprint too fast. 

[Captain Idaho]

11 hours ago, greatcrusade08 said:

yeah 10th co lists are always limiting, and always have been. History tells me they aren't unplayabvle, however 40k has changed, so i am cautious.

i honestly think under AoO 1hq will be enough, probably a sniper captain.

i thimk reviers, whilst bad do have one ood use:  a cheap 80pt deepstriking unit for backline objective capturing. Although tbf land speeder storms have outflank so can duble up on that role if needed.

There are a lot of viable tactics for objective play, one of which is to put infiltrators onto objectives and use the strat (cant remeber name) to remove them in the next turn. If they are sticky objectives thats great. I need to go down the rabbit hole on strategem use for this playbook, but ill get there over time

 

edit: heres my initial WIP list

 

Captain in phobos armour

• Warlord: lord of deceit
• Relic: vox espiritum

 

4 x 5 infiltrators

• Helix gauntlet

 

2 x invictor warsuit

• Autocannon

10 reviers (combat squads for deepstrike)

• bolt carbines

3 x 10 scout squads (all combat squads), all with camo-cloaks

• Sergeant with power fist and combi-melta
• 4 bolters
• Missile launcher
• 4 snipers

 

5 scout bikes

• Sergeant with power fist

2 x 3 scout bikes

• 3 grenade launcher
• Sergeant with combi-melta.

 

3 x 3 eliminators

• Las fusil

 

3 x Land speeder storm

 

how it works (in theory): 5 scout bikes and 2 warsuits deploy in opponents face, if i dont get first turn, they redeploy.

Anvil units are 3 eliminator sqauds, 3 x 5 snipers and captain, everything else zips around, fast moving MSU so hard to peg down, lots of outflank potential with storms.

play the objective game!!

 

I think you can get fairly far with objectives holding as you can often hold on to them long enough to score points under fire, so to speak.

 

If I'm honest I'd drop the Reivers. They won't be pulling their weight and you already have 20 Infiltrators. I'd put an addition Invictor Warsuit in there instead.

 

Thematically, aren't Primaris Land Speeders wearing Phobo armour, so maybe you can get heavy firepower (anti-tank in particular) there?

[greatcrusade08]

16 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Thematically, aren't Primaris Land Speeders wearing Phobo armour, so maybe you can get heavy firepower (anti-tank in particular) there?

 

Thats interesting, i wasnt asware of that

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm not sure if it is Phobos armour?

 

 

Does look lighter still.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[greatcrusade08]

yeah ive been googling, apparently it is phoos armour.

I do worry about thier survivability, but there is not denying the damage output is great

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

not sure if it is Phobos armour?

Possibly, or an unknown designation thus far (can't find any actual reference to the armor for pilot). Unfortunately for this list, Phobos =/ Vanguard. 10th Co. has up to 10 Vanguard units, but stormspeeders are definitely Close Support units. For some reason Reivers are listed as Close Support also, despite close association with Vanguard in most places...

 

For the list I think it'll do okay if you're cagey; likely get that third Invictor though seeing as they're the only thing approaching a hammer unit you have... As a board control list it'll be fun but you'll have a tough time against anything too killy or tough. It's a skew list for sure.

 

FTR I like Reivers well enough to take them. As the cheapest Primaris body you can get, 10 is a reasonable help for keeping up backfield pressure all game. Fluff-wise they are a favourite; always picturing them leaping down from attack craft zooming over the LZ. 

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[greatcrusade08]

Elites are the issue in this list, 80pts for 10 space marine wounds is actually a pretty decent filler tbh, with reivers you have to use them for their abilities.

With that in mind, ill skip ahead and discuss them here: (does someone fancy teaching me how to imbed links to individual posts into the OP please?)

 

Primaris Reivers:

In mark X phobos armour, marketed as a sneaky yet terrifying combat unit.

They are standard marines in all other ways but have the following special rules:

Terror troops: Enemy units within 3" subtract 2 from leadership, hard to make the most of this in current Ld rules. Could be used to force tests on larger units, but ideally you want to isolate and destroy small units with them,

grapnel launcher: Grants outflank, ignores vertical movement.

Grav chutes: Death from above (deepstrike)

 

The bolt carbines are assault 2 bolters, nothing special, however their pistols have ap-2 and combat blades give them additional attacks. (A unit of five has 21 attacks on the charge)

 

To be honest to make this unit work you need to fall back on the special rules, get your moneys worth so to speak.

So outflanking or deep striking, using those pistols to challenge for backfield objectives, bullying squishy units like guard and tau with massed attacks.

you could really go to town on this tactic by dropping a chaplain with jumppack, spending 1CP to activate canticles of hate outside of the command phase and getting +2 to charge, odds of a successful charge with this combination are 58% or with a 82% reroll. alternatively using the master of vanguard trait to get +1, an 8" charge (42%) is much easier than 9" (28%), especially with a CP reroll (66% and 48% respectively)

 

stratagems:

Terror troops: 2CP enemy unit within 3" loses obsec, see above tactic for charging a unit off an objective, sure its CP heavy but a turn 3 objective swing can win you a game.

Storm of death: 1CP wound rolls of 6 inflict a mortal wound in addition to other dmg (Maximum 6) assuming squad of 5 hitting on charge, it would be average 2 mortals, a unit of ten is 4.5 mortals.

Shock and awe: 1CP Shock grenades prevent unit within 6" firing overwatch and gives opponents -1 to hit.

Guerrilla tactics: 1CP, if more than 6" away from enemy, may be put into strategic reserves

 

stacking buffs. RR 1s to hit (captain) or wound (Lt) could increase effectiveness of storm of death to max out the 6 mortal wounds.

Not much extra synergy between units it seems

Edited January 23, 2023 by greatcrusade08
adding in some missing elements

[Tacitus]

That's a lot of CP and/or added points to make a meh unit less meh.  For two more points per model, you've got Assault Marines that do the same Deep Strike, have Eviscerator(s), plasma, and 12" move.   Assault Marines don't necessarily have to run away from a light tank or even a heavy speeder.

[greatcrusade08]

I think the addition of sergeant weapons, i.e power fist and combi weapons would make them ten times better imo

[Tacitus]

I think if they have Grapnels and Grav Chutes they should be Jump Infantry.  I think they need some sort of 1 per 5 or better Big Stick.   And SGT weapons.  But as long as they're slower than assaults, and have to run away from anything bigger than a Stormspeeder its easy to splurge on the 10-20 points and trading an already crowded Elite for a FA> 

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I think Reivers should just be rolled into Incursors somehow, but that's going off on a tangent..

 

Competitively speaking Reivers generally just have a drag factor on the list I just can't get on with. I'm sure folk will get something out of them, but I just feel they can be replaced generally by something better most of the time.

[Tacitus]

That's because they can be.   They're not fast, they're not durable, they're not potent - They're Elite Slot units that are not Elite.  They've got one trick and its fairly limited.

[greatcrusade08]

There is certainly a 'drag factor' on them in all phobos lists they fight for slots against invictor warsuits and scout squads.

I don't understand why they are not FA choices

Some good ideas above for improvement, lets hope GW is watching.

[greatcrusade08]

With the dumping if armour of contempt going into ark of omens, there is another unit im hoping to discuss at length.

 

Invictor warsuits

 

Special rules:

• Concealed positions: Infiltrate in old money, can deploy outside of 9" from opponents, good for first turn charges.
• Gets shock assault rule for +1A on charge.

Weapon options: 

• Incendium cannon: A heavy, heavy flamer, same stats 2D6 hits instead of d6. Random shots is swingy in determining its damage. Average number of hits would do around 2 unsaved MEQ wounds. Good for single wound opponents, guard, tau, eldar etc.
• Autocannon: Straight 6 shots at 2 dmg each, combined with heavy bolter and heavy stubber, its a wall of lead coming at you. 

Dropping of AoC means dmg 2 weapons are good again, i would state confidentially that the autocannon is the best option here. In either case if you set up for a first turn charge, and have devastator doctrine, the main weapons will be getting -2ap as they are all heavy. 

I also believe the wall-o-fire approach is better as if you fail to get first turn you can redeploy these towards the rear of your army and still have competent firebases.

 

Can anyone think of any good synergies with this unit? any buffs?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd agree with the Twin Autocannon being the better option there. In a 10th Company army theme, the range and S7 is important.

 

Devastator Doctrine really helps the unit too. The Heavy Bolter and Twin Autocannon both go to AP-2. With 2/3 of them plus potentially Land Speeders of different stripes, Scout Snipers and Eliminators, I think the strategic merit of sticking in the Devastator Doctrine for an extra turn or 2 is sound.

 

I'd recommend using the Invictor Warsuit paired with something else - probably another Invictor warsuit or if you are taking 10 Reivers or Incursors they can do with tue support.

[greatcrusade08]

i think with themed lists, spam is unavoidable, so having two or three working together is a must.

i also think a solid unit of scout bikes with massed shoowing can make a good support unit for a couple of warsuits.

[Captain Idaho]

I think that's a solid option. Lots of shots alongside the melee potential of the Invictor sounds like a good combination. 

[greatcrusade08]

The latest iteration of my theory-list is:

 

Phobos captain

lord of deceit, vox espiritum

 

4 x 5 infiltrators with helix 

 

3 x 10 scouts

-4 snipers with ml

-4 bolters with sergeant w/fist and combimelta 

3 land speeder storms

2 invictors war suits 

 

8 scout bikes with fist

 

2 storm speeder hammer strike 

 

3 x 3 eliminator with las fusil

 

Running as Novamarines with two options

1. Use UM chapter tactics 

2. Take Bolter fusillade and master artisans to boost damage output of combi meltas and bolters/heavy bolters of the speed units

Edited January 26, 2023 by greatcrusade08