Sanguinius Returning, or Sanguinor Ascended Daemon of the Emperor

[Corswain]

I love the Primarchs but I'm against any Primarch returning to 40K. The dead ones even more so.

The setting and plot is just so much better as the last gasps of a dying empire defended by the lesser sons of greater fathers. 

 

I think that ship has well and truly sailed though.

 

The Sanguinor as some kind of avatar doesn't bother me too much though. I still feel there are stakes there.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Corswain

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Agreed. With the Sanguinor, appropriately upsized and given better rules, there isn't a need for Sanguinius himself and there is no real fluff need for him to come back. Having the Sanguinor as an "Imperial Daemon" gives the BA both another good character/centerpiece and a unique unit in terms of what he is.

I see this as the most likely simply because it seems to be the easiest and the least objectionable 

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Let the dead primarchs stay dead. What's the point of story telling at all if it's just going to be retconned down the road.

You do know almost The whole setting has been retconned at some point right?

[spessmarine]

some sort of shard or avatar of type thing, maybe, sanguinor is halfway there
straight up alive? lol no, him getting killed so hard his sons still wake up sweaty 10k years later is the blood angels theme

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, The Unseen said:

 

So let me get this straight, you don't find it narratively bankrupt to have the father figure who's death literally caused psychic PTSD to his sons for 10,000 years to just... Pop back up? And not even at the literal once in 10,000 year event where almost every Blood Angel and Successor were gathered AT his homeworld, fighting just above his body stored in stasis, when they were a hairs breadth from being eradicated completely by Hive Fleet Leviathan, but only *after* said event. I am reminded that as bad as some of the writing and decisions coming out of GW/BL it could be so very much worse.

 

It'd be like in Christian Mythology; Jesus just sorta comes back, not to bring about the apocolypse or whatever, just randomly is discovered in the middle east as a carpenter again, with all the miracles but none of the narrative weight. Also, how the hell would Sanguinius have the Black Rage? That makes 0 sense.

 

"My father's death at the hands of Horus has haunted my chapter for 10 millenia, his life and sacrifice gave us an example to forever strive for. In moments of great stress we relive his last days and go insane." "What are you talking about dude, Sanguinius is right over there."

Jesus already just randomly came back to life…there’s an entire major holiday to celebrate it.

 

i find all primarchs coming back stupid, but there’s nothing inherently resurrecty about the events of DoB, but it can be argued he was there in the warp considering Dante’s vision/dream.

he is dead after all there’s no prophecy of his return in his legion’s darkest hour so why would he come back in any way there?

maybe his mmm contacting Dante and mephiston, and helping the sanguinor guide BA ships through the warp is him learning how to use his warp Demi-god powers, and will culminate him possessing the sanguinor in full?

 

Your idea of bringing him back during DoB would be the sort of poor writing that would ruin an already tricky plot twist.

6 hours ago, Vermintide said:

If Sanguinius does return, then I mean, what the hell, may as well have Big E get up and start owning noobs too. Yeah yeah astronomicon, eye of terror, whatever. C'mon, we've had 25 years of that boring old corpse emperor shtick, it couldn't hurt to change things up, right? The narrative need to advance.

The emperor is already confirmed speaking with people and acting to influence the material world from the warp, literally smoothing the warp before the indomitus crusade if I am not mistaken.

 

5 hours ago, spessmarine said:

some sort of shard or avatar of type thing, maybe, sanguinor is halfway there
straight up alive? lol no, him getting killed so hard his sons still wake up sweaty 10k years later is the blood angels theme

And none of that would change at all if he came back physically.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I don’t mind some bigger badass Sanguinor making a comeback as a sort of Sanguinius proxy, but Sanguinius being dead is like the most central tenet of the Blood Angels identity to me. I would be SO disappointed if they just straight resurrected him.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Inquisitor Eisenhorn

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

I don’t mind some bigger badass Sanguinor making a comeback as a sort of Sanguinius proxy, but Sanguinius being dead is like the most central tenet of the Blood Angels identity to me. I would be SO disappointed if they just straight resurrected him.  

it doesn't retcon the death, the death and the sacrifice still happened. the chapter is a lot more than "our daddy ded"

[Pacific81]

5 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Let the dead primarchs stay dead. What's the point of story telling at all if it's just going to be retconned down the road.

To sell a miniature?

[Gamiel]

6 minutes ago, Pacific81 said:

To sell a miniature?

They do have many other characters whose minatures will likely sell as well as a Sanguinius one that they can do first, and they have established are actually around. Like all the other traitor primarchs.

[MARK0SIAN]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Except bringing them back does nothing to change any of that old lore.

 

it doesn’t end the black rage. It in no way undermines the sacrifice unless he also had a vision that he’d be resurrected. That’s the only way GW can detract from his sacrifice 

Except it would become yet another major event that had no permanent consequences in the lore. 
 

It’d be like 10th edition starting by the Imperium rebuilding Cadia and bottling the rift back up in the eye of terror.

 

40K is already full of supposedly major events that don’t actually have any real consequences or impact, this classic piece of lore should not be turned into another one.

[Karhedron]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

When he is in the Warp he interacts with what appears to be a decrepit old man, but it later transpires that it's actually Sanguinius in disguise, who goes on to have some significant interaction with Mephiston. 

 

I am pretty sure that is the Sanguinor, not Sanguinius himself. When Mephiston asks him directly, he replies sadly that Sanguinius died long ago.

 

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The emperor is already confirmed speaking with people and acting to influence the material world from the warp, literally smoothing the warp before the indomitus crusade if I am not mistaken.

 

You are not mistaken. During the DI trilogy, Mortarion confirms that the Emperor is awake and active after millennia of silence. Maybe the opening of the Great Rift jolted him awake or maybe Roboute's return gave him a mortal PoV to focus on. One of the BL authors stated that in spite of the agony of sitting on the Golden Throne for thousands of years, the Emperor's corporeal existence grants him an advantage over the Chaos gods in that he still experiences linear time. He still has in interest in the Imperium rather than simply ascending and becoming consumed in the great game.

 

One of the other BL authors also stated that there was no intention to bring back the 4 dead Primarchs. The deaths of Horus, Curze, Ferrus and Sanguinius are key character details of their legions into the 41st millenium and they don't want to mess with those. 

[Pacific81]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

They do have many other characters whose minatures will likely sell as well as a Sanguinius one that they can do first, and they have established are actually around. Like all the other traitor primarchs.

 

Sorry I was being sarcastic! But it is kind of the truth of it. Never let a bit of background, even if it props up the whole 'fallen angel' and 'noble sacrifice' narrative and is the bedrock to the climax of the entire Horus Heresy, get in the way of sales!

 

In my view the entire 40k premise has already been changed fundamentally by the introduction of Primaris and bringing Primarchs back at all, so this would comparatively be a fairly small step along that road.

[LameBeard]

Death simply isn’t death if you can come back from the dead. The point of death is it is final. I already feel the BL authors got too carried away with perpetuals and some resurrection in the 30k novels. 

[Xenith]

=][= Tidied up some double posts. =][=

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

it doesn't retcon the death, the death and the sacrifice still happened.

 

It doesn't retcon it, but does lessen it - the act of sacrifice is no longer as noble if people can just come back to life. Comics run into the same issues, like how many times have characters died there? It's to the point of meaningless. 

 

While him being dead is not all of what the BA are, as you say, it's a huge, huge part of the BA's identity and struggle to find a cure for the rage - something that has shaped and damned them over the past millenia. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You do know almost The whole setting has been retconned at some point right?

 

Yeah but I'm talking post 2ed, not like leman russ was a commissar. The game (and IP) was so small then and they had no idea of the direction. A vast majority of the hobby joined after those retcons. The less retcons the better. And going hey they retconned stuff in the past is not a good excuse to say hey let's retcon stuff in the future. More wrongs don't make a right... 

[LameBeard]

Do we know yet if the new Angron kit will also serve double-duty in the Heresy? I could see GW producing a plastic dual kit which makes either Sanguinius (30k) and new, on-steroids Sanguinor (40k). Everyone is happy, especially GW because of the huge $$$ they make, because with all the extra wings and spare bits, it’s maybe double Roboute’s sprues, they charge us an arm and a leg, but still cheaper and easier to build than forge world so <insert shut up and take my money meme here>

[Karhedron]

The 40K model of Angron looks pretty close to the depiction of him on the cover of "Slaves to Darkness" so I guess he could pull double duty.

 

[lansalt]

40k's Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus all look almost identical to their 30k daemon prince versions in illustrations, except for a few minor details (primaris helmet in the base, funny nurglings, etc). It would make perfect sense to use them in HH2 with an "Ascenced" datasheet.

[Pacific81]

42 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Do we know yet if the new Angron kit will also serve double-duty in the Heresy? I could see GW producing a plastic dual kit which makes either Sanguinius (30k) and new, on-steroids Sanguinor (40k). Everyone is happy, especially GW because of the huge $$$ they make, because with all the extra wings and spare bits, it’s maybe double Roboute’s sprues, they charge us an arm and a leg, but still cheaper and easier to build than forge world so <insert shut up and take my money meme here>

 

I love the new post reaction options, but feel we now need one that represents the meme of Leonardo Di Caprio standing up from his chair and pointing

[Taliesin]

13 hours ago, The Unseen said:

The Sanguinor getting a new model and Primarchish tier rules would be the only acceptable way of having a "Sanguinius" in 40k. The recent novels have made it clear that the Sanguinor is incredibly powerful, and far removed from his mortal origins. (If you go with the implied theory that he's the Herald of Sanguinius from the Ruinstorm novels)
Sanguinius is dead, and should stay that way.

 

I am curious, what novels does the Sanguinor feature in?

[Karhedron]

46 minutes ago, Taliesin said:

I am curious, what novels does the Sanguinor feature in?

 

Devastation of Baal and Darkness in the Blood. I am not sure if there have been other appearances.

[Gamiel]

48 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Devastation of Baal and Darkness in the Blood. I am not sure if there have been other appearances.

Dante

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Xenith said:

=][= Tidied up some double posts. =][=

 

 

It doesn't retcon it, but does lessen it - the act of sacrifice is no longer as noble if people can just come back to life. Comics run into the same issues, like how many times have characters died there? It's to the point of meaningless. 

 

While him being dead is not all of what the BA are, as you say, it's a huge, huge part of the BA's identity and struggle to find a cure for the rage - something that has shaped and damned them over the past millenia. 

It doesn’t lessen it. He sacrificed himself thinking he would die and that would be it. None of that chsnges, the sacrifice remains noble.

 

if the emperor can be active in the galaxy after death so can sanguinius 

[Xenith]

The Emperor isn't dead though! 1000/10,000 souls a day are sacrified to keep him alive and to light the astronomican. 

 

Not only that, coming back to life then lets the BA cure the black rage, as they can re-harvest living tissue from him, thus removing one of the most evocative things about the BA. 

[gideon stargreave]

NM

Edited February 3, 2023 by gideon stargreave
no time

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

The Emperor isn't dead though! 1000/10,000 souls a day are sacrified to keep him alive and to light the astronomican. 

 

Not only that, coming back to life then lets the BA cure the black rage, as they can re-harvest living tissue from him, thus removing one of the most evocative things about the BA. 

Bringing sanguinius back in no way cures the rage. The trauma was experienced and the trauma doesn’t go away just because he comes back to life.

 

if anything sanguinius would also have the rage as well.