Sanguinius Returning, or Sanguinor Ascended Daemon of the Emperor

[Arkangilos]

Just now, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Geedub is well known for saying one thing then doing something else, so you shouldn’t say he’s wrong yet.

On the contrary, we should say he’s wrong until they change their mind. 
 

Sanguinius is dead dead, and until they officially change their position, he is wrong. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Are you absolutely certain though… who is the Sanguinor ?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

Nope. That wasn’t the black rage. That was literally a spell that the demons were using that made the thirst worse. They gave into the thirst, not the rage.

 

 

It was literally a rage.

where does it say that it was a demonic spell exactly?

14 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Are you absolutely certain though… who is the Sanguinor ?

When the book says they entered a dark rage, and were full of rage, he calls it the thirst.

 

he’s made up his mind, and he won’t change it regardless of the evidence you put before him.

[The Unseen]

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It was literally a rage.

where does it say that it was a demonic spell exactly?

When the book says they entered a dark rage, and were full of rage, he calls it the thirst.

 

he’s made up his mind, and he won’t change it regardless of the evidence you put before him.

 

Or actually, you're just wrong. And should actually read the books and lore you seem so eager to completely ignore.

 

The Sanguinor is explicitly NOT Sanguinius, considering he both exists during the same time as Sanguinius was alive, and is explicitly referenced by whatever entity contacted Mephiston in Darkness in the Blood as a separate entity. Said being *might* be some spiritual fragment or echo of Sanguinius, but it also straight up says "I am not Sanguinius, Sanguinius is dead" as Mephiston is pulled back to the land of the living. The Sanguinor is almost certainly, (as in heavily implied but never outright confirmed) the Herald of Sanguinius that was elevated during Imperium Secundus as Sanguinius' proxy. Only Sanguinius knows his original mortal identity, and his mask is described identically to the Sanguinors, Sanguinius' face in an expression of peace/sorrow crying tears of gold. During the climax of Ruinstorm, the Herald stands in the middle of a warp rift pinning a daemon half in and half out of the warp, while cyclonic torpedoes head towards the planet they're on, and while Sanguinius watches he sprouts wings, and somehow holds a very powerful daemon down for an extended period.

 

Also, have you even read the books detailing what happens at Signus? The whole damn plot is that a spell is being wrought that will corrupt the BA legion wholesale, through the Red Thirst. They use it to try and force Sanguinius to willingly fall to Chaos to save his sons from the worst effects, as they all start going bezerk with bloodlust and the daemons tell Sanguinius that if he takes it into himself they will be spared. The Rage is literally never mentioned, and we see other marines fall into the grips of the Thirst and go blood crazed to the point that they attack Sanguinius in previous scenes. None of them see visions of Sanguinius death, or start screaming about Horus, they go full vampire bezerker because the BA geneseed has always had that effect.

 

Reading a 2 paragraph summary on the wiki covering a 300ish page novel is not gonna cut it for specific details. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Unseen

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Are you absolutely certain though… who is the Sanguinor ?

According to a he HH books, it was a guy who had the face of Sanguinius permanently attached to his head to be his herald. He also traded places with Sanguinius when he was in a portal fighting a daemon on Davin, trapping him in the warp. 
 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

he’s made up his mind, and he won’t change it regardless of the evidence you put before him.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wouldn’t put any stock in the HH story as it goes against everything else… loose canon.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

he’s made up his mind, and he won’t change it regardless of the evidence you put before him.

I’ve actually read the book, as well as Malevolence that goes into far greater detail. I’ve also read Sanguinius: The Great Angel which goes into detail on the character of the Angels. I’ve also read every single codex and Index Astartes regarding them since 2nd Edition. 
 

You clearly have not based on our conversations where you consistently get things wrong about them.

4 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I wouldn’t put any stock in the HH story as it goes against everything else… loose canon.

But this would support our argument even further that the BA didn’t suffer from the Rage prior to the death. Even if you did keep the HH story, it doesn’t support the rage prior to the death when one actually reads the source material.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m not arguing about the Rage and it’s origin… it’s been firmly established.

[Nagashsnee]

I have yet to hear a single good narative reason to bring Sanguinius back from the dead other then 'i believe it would be cool'. And laying that truly inspiring argument aside there are MANY good narrative reasons why he should not be brought back. Both from the BA but the wider setting. 

 

Even for the 'big cool fights club' a buffed up Sanguinor who as has already been stated is NOT sanguinius should more then suffice to scratch the 'big cool angel fight things' itch. 

 

Sanguinius is dead, let him rest, if you must drag 30k kicking and screaming into 40k go drag the Khan or Corax or Russ or some other poor bastard back into the narative to suffer an eternal 'x fights y and both kinda win and both kinda lose but both walk away saying i will get you next time!' hell that is the modern 'living advancing, lore only no one ever dies' that has been created.   Or better yet play Horus Heresy the game where all the primarchs are alive ( ok 19 out of 21 and not for the whole duration but its the best your going to get) and constantly fight each other in huge battles! 

 

The blood angels have so many good artistic avenues of story telling to explore. Old man dante has plenty of juice in him both in the current setting and his 1500+ year old life span. The chapter just got 80%+ replaced with primaris, what does it mean to be a Angel in the age of Cawl? For the love of all that is holy GW please kill off 1-2 special characters and explore how their death and replacement affects the chapter ( i vote corbulo for a solid start). 

 

I will keep saying it till me and this hobby part ways, let the old lore rest, explore the empty spaces, the gaps and then add NEW things.  While not the biggest fan of Astorath he was NEW, he was EXCITING, he added something to the faction setting. More of that please, less 'Somehow Sanguinius returned'. Keep the setting LARGE, have people enter stage and exit it, have factions leader who are big deals in their own spheres ( Dante) but on a galactic level? Most of the Dark Imperium probably dont even know he got appointed regent.  Explore, expand and add add add without being afraid of closing chapters.

 

We need less characters returning and more characters like the FW red scorpion, we met him as a srg, then a captain, he made chapter master? good for him and then he became a dreadnough, and if imperial armor ever comes back he is likely due for a ending.  They took a existing aspect of 40k ( Red scorpions) and added, expanded and detailed, and many a new army was made from it.  

[jaxom]

  

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Nope. That wasn’t the black rage. That was literally a spell that the demons were using that made the thirst worse. They gave into the thirst, not the rage.

 

7 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I’ve actually read the book, as well as Malevolence that goes into far greater detail. I’ve also read Sanguinius: The Great Angel which goes into detail on the character of the Angels. I’ve also read every single codex and Index Astartes regarding them since 2nd Edition. 
 

You clearly have not based on our conversations where you consistently get things wrong about them.

But this would support our argument even further that the BA didn’t suffer from the Rage prior to the death. Even if you did keep the HH story, it doesn’t support the rage prior to the death when one actually reads the source material.

I think it may just be different interpretations of the same text.  When I read Sanguinius: The Great Angel  I saw it as building off Fear to Tread in the characterization that there is something spiritually wrong with Sanguinius (again, separate from the Thirst which is/was a known issue to all command-level staff in the early Great Crusade).  The Day of Revelation, the all or nothing nature of his conquests, suggested a pathological fixation on irrevocably and violently righting a perceived wrong. The text seemed to suggest that it was somehow a subconscious coping mechanism for Sanguinius to dispel doubts about his own purity. I think this forms the foundation for what would eventually be called the Black Rage.

 

39 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

Also, have you even read the books detailing what happens at Signus? The whole damn plot is that a spell is being wrought that will corrupt the BA legion wholesale, through the Red Thirst. They use it to try and force Sanguinius to willingly fall to Chaos to save his sons from the worst effects, as they all start going bezerk with bloodlust and the daemons tell Sanguinius that if he takes it into himself they will be spared. The Rage is literally never mentioned, and we see other marines fall into the grips of the Thirst and go blood crazed to the point that they attack Sanguinius in previous scenes. None of them see visions of Sanguinius death, or start screaming about Horus, they go full vampire bezerker because the BA geneseed has always had that effect.

 

Except they don't, at least not all of them, at least to degree that "full vampire bezerker" seems to imply. Amit, specifically, is coherent. We know that the Flesh Tearers will be extremely susceptible to the Black Rage in the future, so its interesting to note his response to ragefire used against the 9th legion. He's indulging in the crimson rites of the Revenant Legion (Red Thirst) when Redknife and the watch-pack confront him.

Quote

'You take the blood of the enemy?' said Redknife. 'That's not your way.'

'You don't know us.' Amit's reply was a low, feral growl. 'What are you?'

'We are kinsmen...' Valdin offered, stiffening.
Amit glowered at them, panting like an animal. 'Lies.' A shadow fell over his gaze. 'We are betrayed. You have always been against us. You all betrayed us!'

....[Redknife internally compares the look on Amit's face to the Wulfen, and its his thoughts that specifically use the words "no reason, no sanity, only pure inchoate rage", but immediately after that] 'Death to traitors!' bellowed Amit, exploding forward with his blade singing through the air.

I can understand why some may read this as a Red Thirst incident, what with the crimson rite and the way Redknife describes Amit. However, that's kind of Amit's point. Along with Amit, the only other notable extant member of the Revenant Legion was Judicier Crohne, who was also noted to hold onto sanity as those around him fell to the ragefire. So it seemed to me that the Red Thirst was exacerbated by the ragefire, but crimson rites innoculated against the Red Thirst. The The Wolves don't know the 9th Legion, what place do they have in judging their ways? Amit focuses not on bloodshed for blooshed's sake, but on addressing the supposed betrayal of his legion. That little nugget of Amit's psyche gets a lot more exploration in Echoes of Eternity. Amit was a cannibal, a "humanish mutant that would've been executed by any of the other Legions.... He was exactly what [the Revenant Legion] was looking for." There's even a callback to the previous exchange with Redknife, between Legion Master Ossuran and Rogal Dorn.

Quote

Rogal Dorn listed their apparent misdeeds back to them. The devouring of enemy dead not for the awakening of their omophagea organs, not for 'tactical use', but for sustenance, for meat.

Yes, Ossuran had replied. This was their way [emphasis added by me - note how it fits in with Amit's reply to Redknife]. And they had won....

The Emperor had charged the IX Legion to win this war, not die of starvation unsupported. There were blood-rites that the primarch wasn't taking into consideration. There were rituals of cannibilistic holiness that permeated not just the Revenant Legion, but countless human cultures across time.

Amit reflects his primarch: both mutants, both lucky enough to not be viewed as mutants (at least post-ascension for Amit), but weighed down with need to defend their place among the 'pure', represented by Redknife and Dorn, who simply don't understand what it's like to be marked as 'wrong' or 'other' simply for doing what one was made to do. It's like a form of virtue-signaling. Violence against oath-breakers fits neatly into that obsession as its near guaranteed to be universally acceptable. Malevolence tells us in the not so subtle section called "In the Company of Death" about the 202 Company, in their blackened armor. The 202 marched from the wreck of the Ifrit Nine, so they were not directly exposed to ragefire, and acted with strategic intent:

Quote

It was Elai Jannus and the survivors of the Ifrit Nine's wreck; having marched through kilometres if hellish wasteland under a rain of ash they had finally reached the fight. The Liturgy of Blood was their shield against the rage that swamped their hearts, and the steel at their side and bolts in their weapons where their gift to the foe....
[They attack the Word Bearer's force surrounding the Right Flank Host]
Elai Jannus had finally succeeded in breaking through the Word Bearers to gain position on the high ground of the right flank [allowing the Blood Angel artillery to resume fire and form a cordon to protect against counter-attack].... All around them in the ash-shrouded gloom, the Word Bearers and their foul allies gathered, each attack claiming more of the dwindling company.... Each of those in that company of death swore to exact a high price for their blood, to wrest a final chance for victory from disaster, and marked their armour in the Baalite fashion, as cross of blood on their ash-stained battle plate.

But if they weren't affected by the ragefire, where did their rage come from? Sanguinius was unconscious and we know there was a psychic component connecting him to his legion. And note they were fighting some of the direst oath-breakers, Word Bearers. In fact, the following pages go on to describe that the most absolute bonkers behavior of the Blood Angel companies (e.g. the lone centurion of 271 Company) was when they stormed the Cathedral of Mark... against Word Bearers. So to me, it seemed like there was something else going on, other than the Red Thirst, to explain Amit's behavior, the more controllable rage of the 202, and why the Blood Angels escalated their violence specifically against the Word Bearers. I think the Black Rage is Sanguinius/9th Legion obsession with virtue signaling combined with the psychic backlash of Horus killing Sanguinius. What better way to prove you belong than killing the Arch-Heretic and saving the Emperor?

 

 

[Arkangilos]

22 minutes ago, jaxom said:

So to me, it seemed like there was something else going on, other than the Red Thirst,

The problem with your entire explanation is the lack of understanding of the thirst.

 

The Red Thirst, in the Lore, literally transforms the space marines into monsters. Those that fall completely to the thirst have to be locked away and undergo physical mutation. 
 

One reason those that fall to the Black Rage are executed so that they don’t also fall completely into the Red Thirst. 
 

The Rage has *always* been described as a flashback to the final battle, where they experience the rage of Sanguinius fighting Horus. That is it. They don’t feel pain because they don’t register it in their mind simply because they aren’t “in reality” anymore.

 

The Red Thirst literally transforms them both mentally and physically into beasts. 
 

The ones that resisted the rage fire resisted because they were strong of will, or had done religious rites that strengthened their will, and that *only* helps against the Thirst.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"I have yet to hear a single good narrative reason to bring Sanguinius back from the dead other then 'i believe it would be cool'. And laying that truly inspiring argument aside there are MANY good narrative reasons why he should not be brought back. Both from the BA but the wider setting."

 

We aren’t responsible to provide the reason, geedub can do that and really it’s their job. It’s enough that many would like to see his return. Saying it wrecks the lore or does a disservice to his death is disingenuous stemming from selfish reasoning.

 

Also one line is not enough to establish that the Sanguinor is not directly tied to the Primarch… enough reasons from lore have been provided to show it’s possible. The HH short story is just awful really - I’m supposed to believe that a Blood Angel dating back from the Heresy is somehow both immortal and has supernatural powers? It’s obviously not the same entity portrayed in the current 40K timeline. Also whose to say Mephiston wasn’t mistaken… his vision could simply be a trauma induced hallucination.

Edited February 4, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

We aren’t responsible to provide the reason, geedub can do that and really it’s their job. It’s enough that many would like to see his return. Saying it wrecks the lore or does a disservice to his death is disingenuous stemming from selfish reasoning.

 

Also one line is not enough to establish that the Sanguinor is not directly tied to the Primarch… enough reasons from lore have been provided to show it’s possible. The HH short story is just awful really - I’m supposed to believe that a Blood Angel dating back from the Heresy is somehow both immortal and has supernatural powers? It’s obviously not the same entity portrayed in the current 40K timeline. Also whose to say Mephiston wasn’t mistaken… his vision could simply be a trauma induced hallucination.

On 1, that logic excuses ANYTHING. If someone wanted a star wars crossover, well i am sure GW could introduce it, male sisters of battle? Sure G man changes the law and the church gets its army back.  What if someone wanted the Emperor to have been female all along ( and i am 100% serious when i say i would support this just to see the meltdown), well i want it and everything else is apparently someone elses problem.   But here is the thing, simply saying 'I want' gets you 0 brownie points, saying people who lay out detailed arguments with some basis of fact woven in are 'selfish' but in the same breath anchoring your entire argument with 'i want' is frankly hilarious and not in a funny way. 

 

People want allot of things, GW job is to make money while ensuring they can keep making money long term. Things that might make a buck today but long term harm the IP are not great. For a look at a setting that use to make lots of money, then bad ideas crept in, then no one knew how to fix them look at warhammer fantasy.  Oh wait they blew it and went soft reboot. I dont want a reboot soft or otherwise for 40k.  Neither do i want other people to not have fun, things like the Sanguinor are the way both sides get to have their cake, is it perfect for anyone? No, but that is the nature of compromise. 

 

On 2 i suggest you read the HH novel ruinstorm, in it as you put it 'geedub did that and really it’s their job' and explained the genesis of the Sanguinor.  Plus as far as HH book go you can do far far worse.  But my friend they went to great lengths in several short stories and novels to insert this character into the 30k story, and then set it up for him to start the path to  become what he is in 40k.  Its not 1 book, or 1 line, it was a effort across several authors. Personally i would have left his origins a mystery but oh well. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

I love watching loyalist marine players complaining about how one chapter gets a primarch they all should get them, while 4/9 chaos Legions don't even have a named character in 40k let alone can't even take a jump pack chaos lord anymore haha.

 

Before they bring the 6 dead ones back they should at least bring the 12 alive ones first before they ruin the lore.

[Arkangilos]

36 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

I love watching loyalist marine players complaining about how one chapter gets a primarch they all should get them, while 4/9 chaos Legions don't even have a named character in 40k let alone can't even take a jump pack chaos lord anymore haha.

 

Before they bring the 6 dead ones back they should at least bring the 12 alive ones first before they ruin the lore.

Woah dere, don’t lump all of us loyalists in that. I’ve been a BA player since as long as I can remember and I don’t want any dead ones back.

[Pacific81]

11 hours ago, Mike8404 said:

Which Primarchs are actually dead, though?  Horus is the only one GW for sure can't bring back without serious gymnastics.  In Master of Mankind, the Emperor says Ferrus' essence is still intact in the warp and that he planned to bring him back following the Heresy.  Sanguineous's essence is still intact too, and his body is in stasis on Baal.  There's no reason GW can't bring him back, they've all but set the plot up for all the Primarchs to come back, as they should.  Every legion should get their Primarchs, minus SoH since Abaddon fills that role

If they bring back Ferris, it needs to have a detachable head version. I assume now that would be an optional accessory if being decapitated is only regarded as a flesh wound.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, The Unseen said:

 

Or actually, you're just wrong. And should actually read the books and lore you seem so eager to completely ignore.

 

The Sanguinor is explicitly NOT Sanguinius, considering he both exists during the same time as Sanguinius was alive, and is explicitly referenced by whatever entity contacted Mephiston in Darkness in the Blood as a separate entity. Said being *might* be some spiritual fragment or echo of Sanguinius, but it also straight up says "I am not Sanguinius, Sanguinius is dead" as Mephiston is pulled back to the land of the living. The Sanguinor is almost certainly, (as in heavily implied but never outright confirmed) the Herald of Sanguinius that was elevated during Imperium Secundus as Sanguinius' proxy. Only Sanguinius knows his original mortal identity, and his mask is described identically to the Sanguinors, Sanguinius' face in an expression of peace/sorrow crying tears of gold. During the climax of Ruinstorm, the Herald stands in the middle of a warp rift pinning a daemon half in and half out of the warp, while cyclonic torpedoes head towards the planet they're on, and while Sanguinius watches he sprouts wings, and somehow holds a very powerful daemon down for an extended period.

 

Also, have you even read the books detailing what happens at Signus? The whole damn plot is that a spell is being wrought that will corrupt the BA legion wholesale, through the Red Thirst. They use it to try and force Sanguinius to willingly fall to Chaos to save his sons from the worst effects, as they all start going bezerk with bloodlust and the daemons tell Sanguinius that if he takes it into himself they will be spared. The Rage is literally never mentioned, and we see other marines fall into the grips of the Thirst and go blood crazed to the point that they attack Sanguinius in previous scenes. None of them see visions of Sanguinius death, or start screaming about Horus, they go full vampire bezerker because the BA geneseed has always had that effect.

 

Reading a 2 paragraph summary on the wiki covering a 300ish page novel is not gonna cut it for specific details. 

Except the thirst isn’t a rage and they are repeatedly referred to as being in a rage.

 

dante talks with a lackey of Cawl’s and is told the flaw was intentional and not actually a flaw. This means the makings of the rage were always there 

 

a spell also doesn’t mean it wasn’t the black rage, just that the spell is what triggered the rage requiring a lower level of trauma to kick in.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[WARMASTER_]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:14 PM, jaxom said:

There was something present during the Great Crusade which resembled the Black Rage. Blood Angels would lose their minds and start rampaging. It was separate from their overactive omniphagea. Some considered it atavistic throwback behavior from the Revenant Legion. The higher level Great Crusade staff who knew about the Revenant Legion were suspicious of Sanguinius, because it's not like the behavior came from nowhere.

 

Sources: Fear to Tread, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel

That would be the Ref Thirst not the Black Rage…

 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:30 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Signus_Campaign

You’re confusing the lore completely here the picture you’ve posted proved yourself wrong? It’s says it’s the Red Thirst not the Black Rage that has ALWAYS been post death 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"On 2 i suggest you read the HH novel ruinstorm, in it as you put it 'geedub did that and really it’s their job' and explained the genesis of the Sanguinor.  Plus as far as HH book go you can do far far worse.  But my friend they went to great lengths in several short stories and novels to insert this character into the 30k story, and then set it up for him to start the path to  become what he is in 40k.  Its not 1 book, or 1 line, it was a effort across several authors. Personally i would have left his origins a mystery but oh well."

 

There’s no way it’s the same person/being for reasons given but I understand your "reasoning" as it’s the answer you want but honestly you’re not being logical.

[WARMASTER_]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It was literally a rage.

where does it say that it was a demonic spell exactly?

When the book says they entered a dark rage, and were full of rage, he calls it the thirst.

 

he’s made up his mind, and he won’t change it regardless of the evidence you put before him.

Apart from the fact you showed him he’s right with your own evidence? I mean this in the nicest way possible but for someone who openly says they don’t read the lore it shows you don’t have a great grasp over the subject you’re trying to convey here? 

[jaxom]

  

6 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

The problem with your entire explanation is the lack of understanding of the thirst.

 

The Red Thirst, in the Lore, literally transforms the space marines into monsters. Those that fall completely to the thirst have to be locked away and undergo physical mutation. 
 

*SNIP*

 

The Red Thirst literally transforms them both mentally and physically into beasts. 
 

The ones that resisted the rage fire resisted because they were strong of will, or had done religious rites that strengthened their will, and that *only* helps against the Thirst.

 

I'm not sure how you arrived at "lack of understanding of the thirst." because what I wrote 100% agrees with what you're saying here. In 40k, the Knights of Blood have usually been used as the prime example of a whole Chapter being lost to The Thirst; they're always described as mutated and it's explicit that The Black Rage is not the same thing. In contrast, the Flesh Tearers are the usual example of a Chapter in danger of being lost to The Black Rage. At the individual level, Dante of all people is near constantly struggling with The Thirst due to his age, but it's never conflated with him always about to fall to The Rage.

 

6 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

The Rage has *always* been described as a flashback to the final battle, where they experience the rage of Sanguinius fighting Horus. That is it. They don’t feel pain because they don’t register it in their mind simply because they aren’t “in reality” anymore.

 

In 40k, The Rage has always been described that way, yes. Again, I don't disagree. My point was, in reading all the 30k stuff, it seemed like the various authors were laying the groundwork for what would become The Black Rage of the 41st millennium:

• Sanguinius' pathological need to punish transgressors to unequivocally show his place among the worthies, despite being a mutant.
• Amit and the Revenant Legion's reflexive psychology placing themselves as victim's of mistrust from the exemplars of the Great Crusade (represented specifically by Dorn, himself) and a need to explicitly show their worth against an enemy that cannot be said to be anything but deserving of it,  reflecting Sanguinius' pathology regarding him being a mutant.
• Crusade High Command knowing about The Red Thirst, its seeming disappearance under Sanguinius' leadership, and being worried about something else.
• Revenant Legion veterans being resistant to the ragefire, but affected by something else that, "to the ignorant [like Redknife, they appear] simply consumed by irrepressible anger, half mad with fury," to paraphrase the codex.
• Amit's coherence, but seeming to disconnect from what he's physically seeing, with the Flesh Tearers being extremely prone to The Black Rage.
• The Death Company allusions are all made to a Company that was out of range of the ragefire, but still affected by Sanguinius' falling into a coma.
• The way the ragefire-enhanced Red Thirst already affecting most of the Legion seems to mysteriously all-of-sudden cause an abrupt additional change in behavior when they start fighting Word Bearer traitors; paralleling the connected dangers of excessive Thirst leading to The Black Rage and vice-versa.

My perspective is that even in the Great Crusade, there was something else wrong Sanguinius, not just The Rage Thirst, and it was in his sons, too. The psychic backblow from Sanguinius' death transformed this else into The Black Rage we see in 40k. 

[jaxom]

38 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

That would be the Ref Thirst not the Black Rage…

My last post took awhile to write, so I missed this, but let me stress what I wrote originally: it was separate from the overactive their overactive omniphagea. The Red Thirst was known and recognizable to Crusade High Command, it was not some big secret, they knew what caused it and what it looked like. They thought the presence of Sanguinius, and his fresh gene samples stabilized the problem; similar to Russ stabilizing the Canis Helix. Yet some still thought something was wrong with the IXth Legion and Sanguinius in a way that was not recognizable, nor the same as, The Red Thirst. The irony being that Crusade High Command were correct about the latter, and wrong about the former. The Red Thirst was still an issue, and Sanguinius had the Erelim cleaning up the messes.

[Arkangilos]

15 minutes ago, jaxom said:

My last post took awhile to write, so I missed this, but let me stress what I wrote originally: it was separate from the overactive their overactive omniphagea. The Red Thirst was known and recognizable to Crusade High Command, it was not some big secret, they knew what caused it and what it looked like. They thought the presence of Sanguinius, and his fresh gene samples stabilized the problem; similar to Russ stabilizing the Canis Helix. Yet some still thought something was wrong with the IXth Legion and Sanguinius in a way that was not recognizable, nor the same as, The Red Thirst. The irony being that Crusade High Command were correct about the latter, and wrong about the former. The Red Thirst was still an issue, and Sanguinius had the Erelim cleaning up the messes.

Where are you getting they knew about it? As far as every source I’ve seen, only Horus and the Angels knew, which is why they went out their way to kill people who found out, and battle brothers that caved into it. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

You’re confusing the lore completely here the picture you’ve posted proved yourself wrong? It’s says it’s the Red Thirst not the Black Rage that has ALWAYS been post death 

Lol they literally call it a rage. The thirst is not a rage, and the rage is part of the flaw, the flaw which cawl says was specifically built into their geneseed

[Arkangilos]

39 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Lol they literally call it a rage. The thirst is not a rage, and the rage is part of the flaw, the flaw which cawl says was specifically built into their geneseed

Bro, no. Cawl says the thirst was built into their geneseed which is why they kept the thirst, but didn’t know they suffered from the rage until a specific incident where Corbulo witnessed them succumb

to it.

Also, the thirst can be described as causing a rage, hence why they always describe those that fall to it as being ravening beasts.
 

You have no idea what you are talking about. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Arkangilos