List of the "Problematic" units?

[arnesh88]

Hey all,

 

I have a lot of people at my store asking for my input on list building for Age of Darkness. One of the questions that pops up often is what are the "problematic" units? They ask for the good reason of "they don't want to be 'that guy'" and want lists that fit their theme while not being oppressive. Most of the time, they get too skittish with adding some units to their list, like Contemptor Dreads, as they are afraid to include 2 in a 1500 list as an example. While I usually let them know that it's fine and most opponents build lists in anticipation of facing them, they then ask when it goes too far.

 

My best answer at this point to them is that they should look at those units as a way to make up for weaknesses for their army rather than the main focus. Among us, the known problematic "spam" units are:

- Contemptor Dreads

- Max sized Heavy Support Squads with Lascannons/Culverins

- Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Are there any other units that are starting to show up as a problem? I think mass nemesis bolters are starting to be a problem among some groups, but I haven't had too much experience against them, and I'm sure there are a number of other units that I'm not aware of.

Edited February 12, 2023 by arnesh88

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Edit: I shouldve lead with an answer to the OPthe two most problematic armies, units I've found are Custodes because they don't care, and Thermal Cannons on Knights with BS5 because...they also do not care.

 

I think playing at 1500 points that's not ZM is probably not doing anyone any favors on dealing with problematic units. In my opinion I think cultivating a culture within the group helps reduce anxiety about wanting to take certain units. Like 1 telepathy Librarian, sure it's great. 2 or more, let's revisit why we want to do this.

 

Every Legion has strengths and weaknesses and every Legion has problematic units. An Iron Hands praetor with a cyber familiar giving him a 3++ is very strong and a real challenge monster with inbuilt hatred through bitter duty. Or their grav-gun Moritat. Thousand sons being able to drop bricks of melta and despoilers out of the sky, Crimson Path Artificer Armor sergeants tanking wounds on a 2+ ignoring the first failed result, followed by a 5+++/4+++etc. 

 

AgainIt's my belief that every army has a niche component to them that can cause headaches. If a group is worried about something being OP it is up to them to self regulate their lists to accommodate each other. I would also encourage playing what you want, followed by experiencing how certain units actually play before completely axing something or banning it. Contemptors for example aren't this big bad boogie man people have built them up to be.

 

My experience has shown they are very easy to deal with if you bring the appropriate weapons. Plasma, Meltaguns, Lascannons etc. 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

AgainIt's my belief that every army has a niche component to them that can cause headaches. If a group is worried about something being OP it is up to them to self regulate their lists to accommodate each other.

The only caveat I think this needs is that some armies are easier than others to stray into "cause headaches" territory. The aforementioned Custodes are a good example of that. Ironically, one of the stronger lists at the moment is made from all plastic kits, the sort of thing that's easier to build because no FW units are needed. Dreadwing, Iron Hands, and Salamander Dreadnoughts are another example; even one can be hard to deal with because their special rules help against the better counters to them.

 

I think the short answer would be: any sort of spam list becomes problematic.

[Jolemai]

I'm sure @Xenith will understand me saying anything AL with smoke bombs 

[Gorgoff]

One Dreadnought per 1000 points is a nice rule of thumb. It depends obviously on the whole army if that is enough or not but that is for sure a number good to handle. 

Heavy Support Squads are no problem either if you don't play 10 and buff them with characters. And so forth. 

 

[Brofist]

I'd argue the whirlwind scorpius exists as a possible counter for dealing big dumb heavy weapon squads or things like siege tyrants. Those squads are overtuned mostly because they're good values, aug scanners are very good, and reaction fire is pretty nuts. Not sure those units are problems more than the rules that make them good.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Brofist said:

I'd argue the whirlwind scorpius exists as a possible counter for dealing big dumb heavy weapon squads or things like siege tyrants. Those squads are overtuned mostly because they're good values, aug scanners are very good, and reaction fire is pretty nuts. Not sure those units are problems more than the rules that make them good.

 

Yeah LoS blocking terrain with vox to guide/re-roll scatter is a great counter to heavy weapons/artillery.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea the initial ones are contemptors and  las heavy supports.

 

Scorpiuses are a problem the more infantry you see and less dreads/primarchs/deep strikers.

 

Recons with snipers are a problem in similar environments, though they tend to not care about deepstrike as much.

 

Telepathy librarians same thing and they pin easily through stubborn.

 

Mass jetbikes might be one once people start running bricks of critical strength melta. 

 

Box dreads with las are basically the evolution of heavy supports with las, but can conflict with the elite slots.

 

Also, just for anyone interested in world eaters, this:

 

Quote

Crimson Path Artificer Armor sergeants tanking wounds on a 2+ ignoring the first failed result, followed by a 5+++/4+++etc. 

 

Is not how crimson path works. It very clearly says not to take saves or damage mitigation, and to discard the first inflicted wound. You see the wound pool, discard, then take remaining saves.

[Gorgoff]

13 hours ago, Brofist said:

I'd argue the whirlwind scorpius exists as a possible counter for dealing big dumb heavy weapon squads or things like siege tyrants. Those squads are overtuned mostly because they're good values, aug scanners are very good, and reaction fire is pretty nuts. Not sure those units are problems more than the rules that make them good.

 

Played agaibst IF which had a buffed up HSS and agree. I need a scorpion to handle this :cuss:.

[Galron]

Unfortunately, some of these problematic units are the only way to make certain RoWs functional. Iron Fire for Iron Warriors does not work effectively without a Scorpius or two. Quadlaunchers with phosphex have too short of range. Even then it isnt very effective for a RoW vs Pride and Hammer of Olympia. Im sure there are others in different legions that have the same issues

I agree the limit of 1 dread per 1k points is a really good rule of thumb.

[oldhat]

As a Dread lover, I'd rather them be tuned a little than restricted. The whole point of FotA lists is to be thematic.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

20 minutes ago, oldhat said:

As a Dread lover, I'd rather them be tuned a little than restricted. The whole point of FotA lists is to be thematic.

That's just it though. Most lists can kill multiple dreadnoughts a turn while still maintaining a thematic feel. In a competitive environment FotA are going to get destroyed. Custodes and knight allies are going to absolutely bonk that list.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Gorgoff]

5 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

That's just it though. Most lists can kill multiple dreadnoughts a turn 

Most lists?!? Most, really?

[oldhat]

47 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

That's just it though. Most lists can kill multiple dreadnoughts a turn while still maintaining a thematic feel. In a competitive environment FotA are going to get destroyed. Custodes and knight allies are going to absolutely bonk that list.

 

Even I, a staunch defender of Dreads, acknowledge the community concerns with their power level, especially in a skew list. Yes, they can be beaten, but Dreads are still viewed generally as too strong currently. "Most lists" can't kill multiple dreadnoughts per turn.

[Valkyrion]

I'm not sure many lists can kill multiple dreadnoughts per turn, never mind most.

 

I think Dreadnoughts need a risk of multiple wounds/instant death. They can stay as tough and tanky as they are, but things like Lascannons and Multi Meltas should be stripping more than 1 wound off per shot. Something like an inbuilt Brutal debuff whereby they have to save X times - S = T save once, S +1 over toughness save twice, S+2 over toughness save three times, S10 is instant death. 

You shouldn't need titan levelling weaponry to instant kill Dreadnoughts and that's what S14 is.  A Demolisher Cannon should be able to one shot a dreadnought - the to hit roll, to wound roll and 2+ save would see it unlikely, but it should be possible. 

 

It hardly seems proper that a Multi Melta or Lascannon Heavy Support Squad will kill every tank in the game and many super heavies in a single round of shooting, but won't kill a contemptor. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

Most lists?!? Most, really?

I mean the average list runs 2-3 dreads in it. That's across the board. If you don't have a built in defense against local meta, let alone pick up games or traveling I think you've handicapped yourself in list building. There's a plethora of units that keep to the lore while giving you advantages over the boogie man model.

[Xenith]

Well, aformentioned 10 Las HSS stands a good chance to kill a dread on its own.

 

OP, Lots of good comments here, I think the takeaway is that one of these units in an army is ok, or like 1 per 1k, but spamming them is when we get problems. 

 

I think you've hit on the big 3 'friendmakers', but some other stuff to ruin days can be Tyrants, Fulmentarus, IF Stone gauntlet, Fury of the Ancients, maaaaybe 3++ save terminators? But in general, the terminators have a high point cost. 

[Xenith]

On 2/12/2023 at 7:59 PM, Jolemai said:

I'm sure @Xenith will understand me saying anything AL with smoke bombs 

 

 It's a good think Shroud Bombs are so limited as to who has them. Maybe I need to run a recon company and ditch tacs altogether...everything in the army will be 8" further away than you expect...

[Valkyrion]

5 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Well, aformentioned 10 Las HSS stands a good chance to kill a dread on its own.

 

 

I'm not sure. Hits on 3's, wounds on 2's, saves on 5's isn't a dead dreadnought from 10 shots. It should be, but it isn't. 

 

[Misterduch]

Nobody mentioned them yet so:

-Sekhmet

-TS command squad

-Gal vorbak

-Maral Gal

-Pretty much anything in the dark brothers row

 

These are my top list for bs units.

 

First two are prolly the most specific, with sekhmet being broken only if your local community goes by RAI or RAW regarding psychic powers stacking. Irrc a tournament recently had TS win using this tactic to get them movement bazillion and toughness 10. or so.

 

Gal vorbak in a spartan will race across the table and have a near guaranteed turn 1 charge. In melee they can only be handled by the most elite of units and even then, my money is on the gal vorbak.

 

Unless you blind them ( 16% chance if hit ), Esoterist them or pin them will just wreck trough your lines.

 

Alpha legion can get 3 units of these guys and infiltrate them right up your door. Have fun dealing with that.

 

Maral Gal is a superior contemptor for dirt cheap.

 

Dark brothers ROW is downright broken. In small games it can swing the game by creating a single WS7-9 unit that can just tear trough your lines with no recourse. In bigger games it's possible to get multiple units fully buffed up in a turn or two. Even regular man Assault squads become melee tarpits that can hold primarch down for a turn or two while also dealing chip damage....

 

Best thing? the only negative is a single, conditional perils of the warp a turn...for making primarch level melee blenders.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Misterduch

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I mean the average list runs 2-3 dreads in it. That's across the board. If you don't have a built in defense against local meta, let alone pick up games or traveling I think you've handicapped yourself in list building. There's a plethora of units that keep to the lore while giving you advantages over the boogie man model.

Again, same question: Most list can kill severeal Dreadnoughts per turn? I play Iron Warriors and can't think of an average list which can several contemptors per turn. I can think of very unpleasant army lists which can do that but those would be horrible to play against the moment the contemptors are down. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 las HSS average 3.6 wounds off a contemptor per turn. Evade drops it to 2.38. A master of signal/armistos bumps that up to 4.5 and removes Evade as a defensive option.

 

10 multimeltas in armourbane range average 5.1.

 

So do most lists run 34 lascannons, 24 multimeltas, 20 grav guns, or whatever other equivalent amount of firepower is needed to scoop two contemptors in a turn? Probably not. Are those lists as rare as you might think? Also probably not. 

 

Melee is a different story, with thunderhammer bricks and most primarchs able to one-round dreads, on top of the various Legion special units.

 

None of that changes that the required points spent to kill those two dreads in one turn are far more what those dreads are worth, with the dreads being more slot efficient due to Talons. You can easily overwhelm lists with 3-4 dreads supplementing the rest of your army.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Petitioner's City]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I mean the average list runs 2-3 dreads in it. That's across the board. If you don't have a built in defense against local meta, let alone pick up games or traveling I think you've handicapped yourself in list building. There's a plethora of units that keep to the lore while giving you advantages over the boogie man model.

 

I'm sorry, talk of "meta" and needing to perform (or "not handicap yourself") is such rubbish - not a rubbish argument, but an often rubbish experience. Why feel the need to win so dearly, to be the most aggressive, to play some strange abstracted anti-game of min-max-rock-paper-thunder hammer? Honestly this competitive or aggressive way to approaching the game (focused on squeezing the most competitive advantage at listing) damns everyone, drags everyone away from a place of mutual fun and fluffy experience to an often unfun, even horrible or humiliating experience. That's not what I want, nor what I want my opponent to feel. I just want a fluffy (as in soft, warm and friendly) fun experience, not a situation where "handicapping" will ever matter.

 

Sorry to rant, but this way of approaching the game often makes me so unhappy (although it of course also is exacerbated by how SG, who I adore but also find bamboozling, has handled the game too, of course).

Edited February 13, 2023 by Petitioner's City
fixed parenthesis

[arnesh88]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

10 las HSS average 3.6 wounds off a contemptor per turn. Evade drops it to 2.38. A master of signal/armistos bumps that up to 4.5 and removes Evade as a defensive option.

 

 

 

 

Dreadnoughts have the Fearless rule, they cannot use the Evade Reaction as per the Errata.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

I'm sorry, talk of "meta" and needing to perform (or "not handicap yourself") is such rubbish - not a rubbish argument, but an often rubbish experience. Why feel the need to win so dearly, to be the most aggressive, to play some strange abstracted anti-game of min-max-rock-paper-thunder hammer? Honestly this competitive or aggressive way to approaching the game (focused on squeezing the most competitive advantage at listing) damns everyone, drags everyone away from a place of mutual fun and fluffy experience to an often unfun, even horrible or humiliating experience. That's not what I want, nor what I want my opponent to feel. I just want a fluffy (as in soft, warm and friendly) fun experience, not a situation where "handicapping" will ever matter.

 

Sorry to rant, but this way of approaching the game often makes me so unhappy (although it of course also is exacerbated by how SG, who I adore but also find bamboozling, has handled the game too, of course).

I mean you are always welcome to bring whatever you want. 

 

2 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Again, same question: Most list can kill severeal Dreadnoughts per turn? I play Iron Warriors and can't think of an average list which can several contemptors per turn. I can think of very unpleasant army lists which can do that but those would be horrible to play against the moment the contemptors are down. 

I mean I don't main a heavy support squad and my list can kill 2-3 dreads a turn if I want to focus on them. I'm not really even taking much outside the normal. But 1 plasma support squad, a melta support squad, a Lascannon heavy team, meltabombs, laser destroyer rapiers, a deredeo or 2, other dreadnoughts, primarchs, biomancy with instant death, this isn't even getting into melee centric units that can out dps a dreadnought or adding in things like Numerologists or Master of Signals to give BS5 to shooting.