List of the "Problematic" units?

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I think some of the power level is down to points level, too.

A pair of contemptors in a 750 pt Zone Mortalis game will absolutely wreck face. A pair of contemptors in a 3000 point game are still contemptors, but there are way more things on the board that can deal with them. No one is bringing a 10 man las heavy weapon squad to a zone mortalis game.

Also, I had a breacher squad come pretty close to crippling a knight the turn the showed up in a drill. I don't think they're over powered by themselves. But, if I turned up to a game and realized I was going to face down an entire knight list, I would be worried. I have the guns to deal with one. I don't have the guns to deal with 6.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Also, I had a breacher squad come pretty close to crippling a knight the turn the showed up in a drill. I don't think they're over powered by themselves. But, if I turned up to a game and realized I was going to face down an entire knight list, I would be worried. I have the guns to deal with one. I don't have the guns to deal with 6.

 

That's the point. 8+ armingers are basically contemptors with better guns and scoring, are Skirmish and can evade with a 4+++ Heverlins weapons are all AP3 with ignores cover and rending. While warglaives are still T7 and instant death marines in melee, while needing 6s to wound back.

 

They are fast and offer amazing trades against troops etc. Then you still have to deal with the Questoris knights, AV 14 with a 4++ is a pain to deal with, and with Master of the House  big boys are able to intercept, return fire, overwatch, which cause a headache all by themselves. Even though breechers can re-roll their invulns against pie-plates the wounds will still stack up.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[SkimaskMohawk]

Armigers don't have better guns. The helverin autocannons do less to marines than two kheres, las, volkite, bolt cannons or melta. And the same as two gravis autocannons. Even with ap 3, the low volume of shots and bs4 drop its actual effectiveness. The thermal lance is a longer range gravis cannon, but is on a bs4 platform instead of bs5. So it also has worse output. 

They don't get a bonus to evade/shrouded from anything.

 

And t,o reiterate, a warglaive charging loses to an equivalent amount of points of tactical marines. They kill it in two rounds with their krak grenades. And can break it and sweep it from the first. Dreadnoughts are just as fast, have WS 5, have an armour saves that isn't bypassed by kraks, and fearless. They actually trade against troops lol. 

 

Heavy only allows rerolls of armour against blast....

 

Is it too much to ask to not make up rules lol. I get math isn't everyone's strong suit, but looking at the rule before you post about it is the minimum. Playing "over 100 games" doesn't mean anything if you don't read the rule books. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Bung]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Heavy only allows rerolls of armour against blast....

 

Is it too much to ask to not make up rules lol. I get math isn't everyone's strong suit, but looking at the rule before you post about it is the minimum. Playing "over 100 games" doesn't mean anything if you don't read the rule books. 

 

Its not 100% made up.

IF Breacher can reroll their Inv Save in the Stone Gauntlet RoW.

It isnt really noticed as most people only notice the Warders and stop thinking.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Its not 100% made up.

IF Breacher can reroll their Inv Save in the Stone Gauntlet RoW.

It isnt really noticed as most people only notice the Warders and stop thinking.

 

 

Totally, kinda. It has nothing to do with their subtype or interacting with blasts; it's just reroll all failed invuls if you have a boarding shield. Either way, there was nothing specifying Stone gauntlet breachers, and he's made an earlier post in this thread that shows he thinks it's a general rule of Heavy:

 

Quote

I mean a typhon siege tank being rending 4+ brutal (4) strength 12 large blast with built in flare shields is basically a better version of the scorpius...only a Lord of War.

 

 

 

Alot of the sicaran Variants are potentially more fatal. So I don't understand putting that tank in problematic units. It's good no doubt, but anything with the heavy subtype gets to re-roll it's invulnerable save against blast and template weapons.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Mana]

13 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

(...) Then you still have to deal with the Questoris knights, AV 14 with a 4++ is a pain to deal with, (...)

Questoris have front 13 AV and 12 AV everywhere else.

 

So dreads are overperforming units, one of the best in the current state of the game. So how should they be nerfed?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Mana said:

Questoris have front 13 AV and 12 AV everywhere else.

 

So dreads are overperforming units, one of the best in the current state of the game. So how should they be 

Regarding the questoris, you still have to deal with them and AV 14 from the Porphyion that also has a 4++. That was simply a typo. There's also the character upgrade that allows you to never deal more than 1 hull point of damage to the unit etc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The upgrade still just makes the knight as durable as the two contemptors. And still loses to one, even with the charge, and max rolling it's stomp every round of combat. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sawtooth]

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

[bushman101]

9 minutes ago, Sawtooth said:

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

In general, 1 or 2 units is fine. Spamming the unit causes problems.

There is a difference between 'being caught by a skew list' vs 'being unprepared'

[MARK0SIAN]

8 hours ago, Sawtooth said:

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

The thing is, a lascannon HS squad is a good unit, it’s only real drawback is it’s mobility. That goes away with Deathguard which turns it into a great unit. 
 

So even though one squad isn’t really an issue, I’d still be prepared for some sighs of non-surprise from your opponent when you put them down as you’ve just put down an option that’s a strong contender for ‘best in slot’.

 

Its the same reaction I get when I put down my single squad of tyrant siege terminators.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

10 hours ago, Sawtooth said:

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

Honestly man it just depends on your meta. At the LVO I either played against Lascannon squads with augury scanners, contemptors and leviathans, or deredeos. No one balked or complained about the units fielded. None of the complaints that have been echoed here have been made at any point in my travels.

 

Most of the complaints here are just guys echo chambering because they want to stir the pot. It's up to you to see how much enjoyment you get and what is given. Death Guard make a very good shooting Legion and that's about it. They are easily out maneuvered and don't have the melee support other armies do.

 

If you want to play 1 lascannon squad, or break it up and play 2 or 3. Do it. If you see that it's too over powered switch things up and try other units out.

 

A 10 man Volkite Culverin squad pumping out 50 S6 shots a turn that can move and shoot is just as brutal as 10 Lascannons, just in different ways. Good players are always going to have a save against AP2. Bad ones aren't. The thing to remember is any time you shoot between intervening units you automatically get a 6+ or better save depending on what you are shooting against and where.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten
Culverin instead of Cavalier

[MichaelCarmine]

11 hours ago, Sawtooth said:

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

In general - you play, what you want to play. What you decide to play, limits the amount of games you'll be able to play, nothing more. =]

 

I myself are really fond of footslogging Multimelta-HSS with the Deathguard. Mobile, Synchronised and best AT in the game IMO. But also not too hard to play against ( if you field multiples), since you can outrange 24" relatively easy, to deal with them.

 

But it is entirely your choice, what you want to play! ^^

 

EDIT:

Also, to answer the OG Question:

 

At the moment, the only real broken unit i know of is the Telepathy Librarian. That dude is just the worst, thats why i stopped playing him. 

Being able to shut down 4 units in 1 Gameturn lets me think, that nobody played them even once during playtesting.

 

Other than that, i'd say that Phalanx Warders are too hard to deal with for their points (even without Rann) and the fact, that IFs, in general, got the Golden Ticket in 2.0. They usually have multiple hard hitting and Tough units in their Lists. At least in my Experience.

Edited February 22, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Bung]

4 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Honestly man it just depends on your meta. At the LVO I either played against Lascannon squads with augury scanners, contemptors and leviathans, or deredeos. No one balked or complained about the units fielded. None of the complaints that have been echoed here have been made at any point in my travels.

 

Most of the complaints here are just guys echo chambering because they want to stir the pot. It's up to you to see how much enjoyment you get and what is given. Death Guard make a very good shooting Legion and that's about it. They are easily out maneuvered and don't have the melee support other armies do.

 

I wonder why noonecomplained at a tourney which is some sort of cutthroat Environment in a country thats known to take always a more competitve stance?

 

Sorry, LVO is not how people expect to play all over the world.

Tourneys and Net Listing ruined a good Part of 40 k in my eyes for casual gaming.

 

Most people i know want to play Horus Heresy as anarrative Beer & Pretzels Game.

 

 

So the best advice is, how the Game is played in your area and look for a group that fits your mind set.

[SkimaskMohawk]

12 hours ago, Sawtooth said:

I have to ask, as a completely new 30k player, is any use of these units problematic? I was planning to build into a Creeping Death list and a 10 man Lascannon HSS footslogging just seemed perfect for my anti-armor needs. I very much don't want to be That Guy.

 

Taking one unit usually doesn't make you that guy, especially in the 2500-3000 range. In lower points like non zone mortalis 1500-2000 it changes a bit because they are so capable, and death guard can use them better than most other legions. If you notice you're killing the tanks a bit too fast and your opponent is scared of the return fire then it might be a sign to lower the amount; if they're bringing a spartan and the las are crucial to trying to stop it, don't handicap yourself. 

 

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I myself are really fond of footslogging Multimelta-HSS with the Deathguard. Mobile, Synchronised and best AT in the game IMO. But also not too hard to play against ( if you field multiples), since you can outrange 24" relatively easy, to deal with them.

 

Yea the multimelta is definitely the strongest anti tank, but is actually priced a bit correctly on the HSS. The range is a real handicap and allows a lot more counterplay than the las (especially from return fire). Jetbikes imo are a different story.

 

Quote

At the LVO I either played against Lascannon squads with augury scanners, contemptors and leviathans, or deredeos. No one balked or complained about the units fielded.

 

 

Because everyone had all those and self justified their lists narrative lol. And also attendees did call out the amount of dreads on Facebook. 

 

Quote

None of the complaints that have been echoed here have been made at any point in my travels.

 

But complaints about knights have? 

 

Quote

A 10 man Volkite Culverin squad pumping out 50 S6 shots a turn that can move and shoot is just as brutal as 10 Lascannons, just in different ways. Good players are always going to have a save against AP2. Bad ones aren't. The thing to remember is any time you shoot between intervening units you automatically get a 6+ or better save depending on what you are shooting against and where.

 

Just as brutal, but in different ways? Using equivalent points of culverins 13( split into squads of 7/6 for 310) average:

• 14.96 failed power armour 3+ saves
• 6.90 failed artificer armour 2+ saves
• 2.53 failed contemptor 2+ saves
• They kill any av11 in one volley
• They kill any av12 in one volley

11 las (split into squads of 6/5 for 315) average:

• 6.02 wounds against marines (5 with 6+ cover)
• 3.98 failed contemptor 5++ saves
• They kill any av11 in one volley
• They kill any av12 in one volley
• They average 5.45 hull points to av 13 (which is a kill on anything but a knight)
• They average 3.92 hull points to av14
• They average 2.25 hull points to av15

It looks like culverins are better up until vehicles, and it's a matter of debating whether the increased output vs the earlier targets is worth it. Right? 

 

Well, kinda. One of Las' claim to fame is that it meets instant death threshold. This means instant death to multiwound infantry and ignoring any FNP stacking. So against those targets, the 13 culverins average:

• 6.67 wounds /6.67 dead marines if 3+/4+ FNP
• 14.5 wounds / 7½ dead marines if 3+/2 wounds 
• 8.15 wounds / 4 dead marines if 3+/5+ FNP/2 wounds 
• 6.90 wounds / 3½ dead marines if 2+/2 wounds
• 4.37 wounds / 2 dead marines if 2+/5+ FNP/2 wounds

This really shows that volkite only excels against marine infantry, but can also be mitigated by a variety of factors where it barely pulls ahead in its niche. It's not "just as brutal in a different way"; it's anti basic infantry with a sharp fall off.

 

Quote

Death Guard make a very good shooting Legion and that's about it. They are easily out maneuvered and don't have the melee support other armies do.

 

Uh...that's one way to look at it. Another way is that you make a gun line to force people into you, a screen of bodies to take the charge, and then counter charge them with the good units like dreads, normal terminators, Morty, typhus, etc...You just hammer and anvil them with your pseudo stubborn army. 

 

Quote

Most of the complaints here are just guys echo chambering because they want to stir the pot

 

This is far from the first time he's labeled people who disagree with him as some form of toxic/trolling/not skilled/not enough games/other group. Our experiences are discarded as echo chambering; his are authoritative. If there's anyone stirring the pot, it's the person who makes contrarian and unsubstantiated claims based off incorrect rules.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

3 hours ago, Bung said:

 

I wonder why noonecomplained at a tourney which is some sort of cutthroat Environment in a country thats known to take always a more competitve stance?

 

Sorry, LVO is not how people expect to play all over the world.

Tourneys and Net Listing ruined a good Part of 40 k in my eyes for casual gaming.

 

Most people i know want to play Horus Heresy as anarrative Beer & Pretzels Game.

 

 

So the best advice is, how the Game is played in your area and look for a group that fits your mind set.

The LVO narrative event was not a tournament. I hope you can attend next year to see that for yourself. I can assure you more than beer was drank at the tables, as was telling lots of stories.

[Bung]

7 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

The LVO narrative event was not a tournament. I hope you can attend next year to see that for yourself. I can assure you more than beer was drank at the tables, as was telling lots of stories.

 

Sorry, wrong conttinent and even then after what i have seen and heard from LVO its probably the least interesting thing to visit for me for games.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

That's unfortunate, I would say you have been misinformed. There were a couple Aussies and Brits there, Canadians too. They all had a keen time from my understanding from the Facebook posts in the group. It's nothing but excitement and open dialog.

 

Crashing a word bearers flag ship onto the battlefield was awesome...

 

I think these pictures can speak for themselves. You can ignore the fun everyone had, and maybe that's just how you are with 30k...but the community is so much more than the pessimistic view point of some of the voices here...

[Brofist]

For what its worth, the LVO ZM event was super chill

 

I'm bias of course

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea of course it's another label. Pessimistic this time. 

 

Us pessimists have had one core point; some units/wargear are too efficient and taking too many can lead to a warped meta. You have to balance your collection against your groups, and have some honest conversations about both unit strengths and enjoyment of games with your friends. 

 

I'm personally experiencing what escalation feels like since there's a tournament coming up in May with lascannon units, multiple dreads, primarchs, Scorpiuses, telepathy librarians, heralds, and snipers all being very common in lists now. You can't deepstrike or you risk being disrupted, pinned, or simply shot to pieces; you have to move up the board and dodge the las, snipers, and dreads. There's unfortunately no room for the "bad" units or rites because everyone's trying to compensate for slight weaknesses in their lists and upping the strength constantly; the tempo of playing feels way closer to 9th 40k compared to heresy 1st and it sucks a bit. Yea, we're pretty to blame for pushing escalation, but the end result is what it is.

 

Idk, one of my buddies sticking with 1st basically played the same iteration of his list for the past 8 years. It has multiple kheres dreads, it has three javelins, it has Medusas, and Scorpiuses, and laser vindis and all that. I was able to play 5 different factions (night lords, raven guard, mechanicum, Custodes, and iron warriors) and always feel like I can try new units, strategies and tactics against that list. 

 

Escalation is just way faster and narrower in 2nd. Theres a reason that LVO narrative event averaged 3 contemptors a list, and it's not because it suddenly became more narrative to take the unit than in 1st. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Pacific81]

I think honestly if someone wants to play a really competitive scene, with a game that is designed for it and can handle the strain, you're probably better off with something like A song of Ice and Fire, Infinity used to be like it too. Those games have been designed with tournaments in mind and are thrashed within an inch of their lives by the gaming community. Trying to play min-max list with over-representation of undercosted units in this game, when you can see it hasn't been subjected to the same rigour during playtesting and patently isn't intended as its strength, doesn't seem fair; it's like a high-school student turning up at a spelling competition for ten-year olds and then fist-pumping when they win.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Pacific81

[Brofist]

14 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Yea of course it's another label. Pessimistic this time. 

 

Us pessimists have had one core point; some units/wargear are too efficient and taking too many can lead to a warped meta. You have to balance your collection against your groups, and have some honest conversations about both unit strengths and enjoyment of games with your friends. 

 

I'm personally experiencing what escalation feels like since there's a tournament coming up in May with lascannon units, multiple dreads, primarchs, Scorpiuses, telepathy librarians, heralds, and snipers all being very common in lists now. You can't deepstrike or you risk being disrupted, pinned, or simply shot to pieces; you have to move up the board and dodge the las, snipers, and dreads. There's unfortunately no room for the "bad" units or rites because everyone's trying to compensate for slight weaknesses in their lists and upping the strength constantly; the tempo of playing feels way closer to 9th 40k compared to heresy 1st and it sucks a bit. Yea, we're pretty to blame for pushing escalation, but the end result is what it is.

 

Idk, one of my buddies sticking with 1st basically played the same iteration of his list for the past 8 years. It has multiple kheres dreads, it has three javelins, it has Medusas, and Scorpiuses, and laser vindis and all that. I was able to play 5 different factions (night lords, raven guard, mechanicum, Custodes, and iron warriors) and always feel like I can try new units, strategies and tactics against that list. 

 

Escalation is just way faster and narrower in 2nd. Theres a reason that LVO narrative event averaged 3 contemptors a list, and it's not because it suddenly became more narrative to take the unit than in 1st. 

 

This feels like what happens in most editions early on. It takes a bit for people to work out their armies and try out 'all the things'. At some point this results in a concentration of 'the best stuff'. At that point people who don't have fun anymore decide not to play like that anymore, be it with comp systems or just social pressure in peer groups. We had a similar escalation in our group during 1st edition, which turned into a conscious de-escalation because it wasn't fun.

 

I mean.... you're also going to a competitive event so what do you expect?

[SkimaskMohawk]

13 minutes ago, Brofist said:

 

This feels like what happens in most editions early on. It takes a bit for people to work out their armies and try out 'all the things'. At some point this results in a concentration of 'the best stuff'. At that point people who don't have fun anymore decide not to play like that anymore, be it with comp systems or just social pressure in peer groups. We had a similar escalation in our group during 1st edition, which turned into a conscious de-escalation because it wasn't fun.

 

I mean.... you're also going to a competitive event so what do you expect?

 

Honestly I didn't expect the rock/paper/scissor nature of units to kick in that hard. This edition basically cost 1st three years of support, and I wouldn't have ever guessed that there would be less viable units at the end of the escalation path.

 

As I said, my buddy's competitive 1st edition list has way more avenues to counterplay despite being filled with the "meta" units of its time; I could keep on testing new things without worrying about an instant game over. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'll be curious to see how adepticon pans out. That's the next event I'm looking forward to. I have several friends going , I can't wait to hear back from their experiences.

 

NOVA is the next major event I plan on attending though. Reading over the Premir does give me a bit of pause since Primarchs are allowed from day 1 in the Salvo event. I think that will be telling if the big bad boogie men of Fury of the Ancient lists creep up to more than just a couple players. Ratios from previous experience 1 out of 70 is just so alarming though...

Edited February 24, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten
Fixed verbiage, removed some redundancy

[Brofist]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Honestly I didn't expect the rock/paper/scissor nature of units to kick in that hard. This edition basically cost 1st three years of support, and I wouldn't have ever guessed that there would be less viable units at the end of the escalation path.

 

As I said, my buddy's competitive 1st edition list has way more avenues to counterplay despite being filled with the "meta" units of its time; I could keep on testing new things without worrying about an instant game over. 

 

To be fair to first edition, it had almost a decade to get to that point. The community was also way, way, smaller. Book 1 released to basically niche guys who played Badab War. We had the same cookie cutter lists smashing against each other: thudd guns, blobs, artillery, spartans, typhons, and eventually lightnings.

 

I 100% agree there should have been more done to make all our units usable in 2.0, no question there. Huge swaths of the army list were clearly written off. which isn't right.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Brofist