List of the "Problematic" units?

[arnesh88]

7 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I'll be curious to see how adepticon pans out. That's the next event I'm looking forward to. I have several friends going , I can't wait to hear back from their experiences.

Adepticon is the event I'm going to. I'm really excited for it, 2 days of the 3000 pt narrative. I get to bring Vulkan, whom I never used, even in 1st edition (always self-regulated to only bring him if my opponent brought a primarch).

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

Adepticon is the event I'm going to. I'm really excited for it, 2 days of the 3000 pt narrative. I get to bring Vulkan, whom I never used, even in 1st edition (always self-regulated to only bring him if my opponent brought a primarch).

I feel that. I have Corax. Rarely field him unless I know my opponent also fields a primarch.

[SkimaskMohawk]

12 hours ago, Brofist said:

To be fair to first edition, it had almost a decade to get to that point. The community was also way, way, smaller. Book 1 released to basically niche guys who played Badab War. We had the same cookie cutter lists smashing against each other: thudd guns, blobs, artillery, spartans, typhons, and eventually lightnings.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but Im having a hard time understanding. It's mostly due to a cold that's making concentration and comprehension tough (the first 10 pages of end and the death took me 10 minutes lol). Are you saying it took 1st a long time to reach full escalation, or a long time to get to a point where there were enough options to play into it?

 

[General Zodd]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but Im having a hard time understanding. It's mostly due to a cold that's making concentration and comprehension tough (the first 10 pages of end and the death took me 10 minutes lol). Are you saying it took 1st a long time to reach full escalation, or a long time to get to a point where there were enough options to play into it?

 

I can’t speak for Brofist, but what I took him to mean was that 1st Ed took all that time to get to a decently balanced meta game. Whereas the young upstart 2nd Ed is bound to be a bit wonky early on?

[Bung]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:34 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

 

Other than that, i'd say that Phalanx Warders are too hard to deal with for their points (even without Rann) and the fact, that IFs, in general, got the Golden Ticket in 2.0. They usually have multiple hard hitting and Tough units in their Lists. At least in my Experience.

 

Did you actually play more than once against Warders or is it Just the Internet Echo Chambers?

 

I played a Stone Gauntlet List twice as a friend of me asked to bring them and the second game was pretty close with objectives.

 

Warders can be hard, but can be handled as the SG RoW is super predictable and in my eyes is pretty Limited.

40 Warders + Fafnir are around 1200 Points without Transports.

[Brofist]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:57 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but Im having a hard time understanding. It's mostly due to a cold that's making concentration and comprehension tough (the first 10 pages of end and the death took me 10 minutes lol). Are you saying it took 1st a long time to reach full escalation, or a long time to get to a point where there were enough options to play into it?

 

 

Hope you feel better!

 

Was saying the latter. 1st opened up with a pretty escalated meta fairly quickly, at least in my experience. Same types of lists run across continents. The options didn't expand much until we had more books, units, legions, re-balances, etc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 minutes ago, Brofist said:

 

Hope you feel better!

 

Was saying the latter. 1st opened up with a pretty escalated meta fairly quickly, at least in my experience. Same types of lists run across continents. The options didn't expand much until we had more books, units, legions, re-balances, etc.

 

Thanks!

 

I agree in part, though it's a little tricky to talk about because 6th was in action for two years before 7th introduced its own set of changes. 

 

Vehicles used to explode on 6s, terrain hid you from barrage and diffused blasts, and night fight cut the range of weapons. The various vehicles that people liked were both less effective and died to more stuff, so far more things were viable to counter all the powerful vehicles. Cover also just protected you a lot more from ranged output too. People did gravitate to the obvious strong stuff, but there was still a lot more that you could do against it, even just with betrayal. 

 

 

 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Bung said:

 

Did you actually play more than once against Warders or is it Just the Internet Echo Chambers?

 

I played a Stone Gauntlet List twice as a friend of me asked to bring them and the second game was pretty close with objectives.

 

Warders can be hard, but can be handled as the SG RoW is super predictable and in my eyes is pretty Limited.

40 Warders + Fafnir are around 1200 Points without Transports.

Yes... unfortunately i have! And they didn't even field 40, only two squads á 10 Models.

 

But you don't actually have to had played against them, to see their potential - i know we (you and me) had this discussion before. But i'm happy to provide my opinion again ^^

 

You (the examplary "you") choose Stone Gauntlet RoW.

Warders cost 225pts base - for this, you get a 10man unit, armed with Bolters(BS5), BoltPistols(BS5), Power Axe, Boarding Shield(5++), LD 8/9.

Also comes with Line, Heart of the Legion and Heavy.

You have to be in BaseContact with atleast 2 other models to receive a bonus to your Invul, so 5++ becomes 4++ - which is rerollable, as long as you are in unit coherency, even for models(with boarding shield) who have joined the unit! 

Also, if at least 3 models remain in the Unit and get charged, they receive a bonus of +1 to their WS, even for models who have joined the unit! 

 

So a Preator, for example, with Boarding Shield (which is a free ugrade), who has joined the unit gains a rerollable 3++, +1 to his WS (+2 if he has Solar Marshal WL trait...) if charged in CC. 

 

You put an apothecary in there, place them on an objective, now they have a 4++/4++/4+++ against anything up to str.7, 3+/3+/4++ against blasts up to str. 7, are stubborn with LD8/9, WS5 with PowerAxes when charged.

 

This is a Troops Unit! What the hell? 

 

Name me one Elite Unit, which can provide this amount and quality of protection.

 

You take 3 10man units, put artificer and Apothecary (maybe some Meltaguns) in them and give them rhinos. They don't need further upgrades - even though they are one of the few units, which have the option to take MeltaBombs for the whole squad...

Thats 945pts for 33 (3x11) mobile, really, really hard to remove scoring units. Now you have the rest of your poins open for , lets say - A Castellan and scoring HSS Squads? Terminators with Str. 10 PowerFists and 3++ (WS6 and Scoring if Solar Marshal Preator with Retinue)? Or directly 10 Huscarls instead of a Preator... xD

 

They provide you with "Troops", which is rather Elite at its core, despite being Fast Attack for some reason oO

 

How to turn them "fair"? At least remove their Boltguns. Now they can be outshot by tacticals and don't retaliate with BS5 Bolters...

 

[Bung]

8 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yes... unfortunately i have! And they didn't even field 40, only two squads á 10 Models.

 

But you don't actually have to had played against them, to see their potential - i know we (you and me) had this discussion before. But i'm happy to provide my opinion again ^^

 

You (the examplary "you") choose Stone Gauntlet RoW.

Warders cost 225pts base - for this, you get a 10man unit, armed with Bolters(BS5), BoltPistols(BS5), Power Axe, Boarding Shield(5++), LD 8/9.

Also comes with Line, Heart of the Legion and Heavy.

You have to be in BaseContact with atleast 2 other models to receive a bonus to your Invul, so 5++ becomes 4++ - which is rerollable, as long as you are in unit coherency, even for models(with boarding shield) who have joined the unit! 

Also, if at least 3 models remain in the Unit and get charged, they receive a bonus of +1 to their WS, even for models who have joined the unit! 

 

So a Preator, for example, with Boarding Shield (which is a free ugrade), who has joined the unit gains a rerollable 3++, +1 to his WS (+2 if he has Solar Marshal WL trait...) if charged in CC. 

 

You put an apothecary in there, place them on an objective, now they have a 4++/4++/4+++ against anything up to str.7, 3+/3+/4++ against blasts up to str. 7, are stubborn with LD8/9, WS5 with PowerAxes when charged.

 

This is a Troops Unit! What the hell? 

 

Name me one Elite Unit, which can provide this amount and quality of protection.

 

You take 3 10man units, put artificer and Apothecary (maybe some Meltaguns) in them and give them rhinos. They don't need further upgrades - even though they are one of the few units, which have the option to take MeltaBombs for the whole squad...

Thats 945pts for 33 (3x11) mobile, really, really hard to remove scoring units. Now you have the rest of your poins open for , lets say - A Castellan and scoring HSS Squads? Terminators with Str. 10 PowerFists and 3++ (WS6 and Scoring if Solar Marshal Preator with Retinue)? Or directly 10 Huscarls instead of a Preator... xD

 

They provide you with "Troops", which is rather Elite at its core, despite being Fast Attack for some reason oO

 

How to turn them "fair"? At least remove their Boltguns. Now they can be outshot by tacticals and don't retaliate with BS5 Bolters...

 

 

And Castellan, Huscarls, HSS etc. dont use up any points.

 

Your ~1000 Points of Warders are beatable with the standard Tools i have seen in a lot of Lists if you play smart. Neither a Rhino or sniping out an Apothecary is a hard task.

 

But runing your Elites straight into the toughest roadblock in the Game May Not be the best decision.

[MichaelCarmine]

20 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

And Castellan, Huscarls, HSS etc. dont use up any points.

 

Your ~1000 Points of Warders are beatable with the standard Tools i have seen in a lot of Lists if you play smart. Neither a Rhino or sniping out an Apothecary is a hard task.

 

But runing your Elites straight into the toughest roadblock in the Game May Not be the best decision.

I think you don't understand, or didn't read. I wrote, that you buy them with the rest of your points, which are more than enough, because you don't have to really "care" about scoring anymore. You have the toughest scoring unit in the game, at least IMO...

 

So tell me one unit, that beats a unit of 10 warders (+Apothecary) for the same amount of points. That is scoring! Doesn't even have to have HotL.

 

Nobody ever said, they are not beatable, i am saying, they are to tough for their points! You have to throw much more points at them, to beat them. 

It is also not that hard, to hide your apothecary from snipers, if you play smart. ;)

 

How many squads of snipers are you planing to field? 2 units of 5? thats 2 rending wounds on average, even if you can snipe an apothecary, he still has a 5+++ or 4+++, depending on where he stands.

And now you've used at least 270pts to (maybe) kill 45pts, what about the rest of the 225pt squad? they still have 5++/5++ or 4++/4++ and are LD 8/9.

The amount of firepower you have to bring to the table, to deal with just one of these squads is in no way reasonable.

I'd say, the only units, that have enough firepower to get them, are HSS with Heavy Bolters (witch nobods plays, outside of maybe, oh wait - Imperial Fists) or Volkite Culverin. Which are the first target of a Scorpius, that i've seen in 3 out of 4 IF lists, i faced.

 

And so you said it yourself, the toughest roadblock in the Game... a troop unit... for the Legion, that already got it all this Edition...but that's for another thread. xD

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

So tell me one unit, that beats a unit of 10 warders (+Apothecary) for the same amount of points. That is scoring! Doesn't even have to have HotL

 

....a contemptor lol. One contemptor, even without double melee, can charge and beat 10. As long as they don't have melta bombs. The next notable unit is suzerains, who can pound the squad with their thunder hammer option. 

 

But both are extremely good units, and while dreads are common, they usually match up against other dreads. Lists where every unit needs a very dedicated response or they can't be mitigated are the ones that tend to get more problematic .

[Bung]

7 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I think you don't understand, or didn't read. I wrote, that you buy them with the rest of your points, which are more than enough, because you don't have to really "care" about scoring anymore. You have the toughest scoring unit in the game, at least IMO...

 

So tell me one unit, that beats a unit of 10 warders (+Apothecary) for the same amount of points. That is scoring! Doesn't even have to have HotL.

 

Nobody ever said, they are not beatable, i am saying, they are to tough for their points! You have to throw much more points at them, to beat them. 

It is also not that hard, to hide your apothecary from snipers, if you play smart. ;)

 

How many squads of snipers are you planing to field? 2 units of 5? thats 2 rending wounds on average, even if you can snipe an apothecary, he still has a 5+++ or 4+++, depending on where he stands.

And now you've used at least 270pts to (maybe) kill 45pts, what about the rest of the 225pt squad? they still have 5++/5++ or 4++/4++ and are LD 8/9.

The amount of firepower you have to bring to the table, to deal with just one of these squads is in no way reasonable.

I'd say, the only units, that have enough firepower to get them, are HSS with Heavy Bolters (witch nobods plays, outside of maybe, oh wait - Imperial Fists) or Volkite Culverin. Which are the first target of a Scorpius, that i've seen in 3 out of 4 IF lists, i faced.

 

And so you said it yourself, the toughest roadblock in the Game... a troop unit... for the Legion, that already got it all this Edition...but that's for another thread. xD

 

Tell me, why should i be dumb enough to engage Warder or any other Elie Unit one in one or Points per Points?

 

The difference is, i tried writting such a List at 2500 Points. You dont know how fast you Run Out of Points with Warders, Huscarls + their Transports while your opponent can bring a lot of cheap stuff.

 

 

 

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So what you're really saying is just throw some cheap deapoilers that are fearless/LD 10 and stubborn into combat, or squad like of hetaeron guard at them.

[Slips]

Theyre WS4 1A power axes after the first round of combat so, yeah, pretty much. Theyre basically an excellent tarpit and if you send in a unit to try and kill them all of in CC and subsequently get tarpitted, well, what were you expecting?

 

Their primary purpose [in Stone Gauntlet] is to really hold objectives and make any character theyre attached to harder to kill. Fafnir Rann makes them more aggressive but he just boosts their WS to 5 on a charge in addition to when being charged so youre just guaranteed WS5 in the first round of combat. 

 

If youre good with positioning and the movement phase, then honestly, you can probably just kite them around the board all game since they are Heavy and running is detrimental to them having their increased defensive buffs.

 

And if the IF player is using the thankfully much improved Hammerfall Strikeforce, then youre not contending with 4++ re-rollables just a wholeass army who can deepstrike.

 

IF are more or less ranked top tier by most people because, out of the box and at a glance, theyre very straight forward to get something powerful rolling with them but, past that, player skill will be the ultimate deciding factor.

 

Edit: the only thing to watch out for, I guess, is the 1in5 Option of Melta, Plasma, Combi or Thunderhammer but even with 3 THs in a 10 man squad (Sarge + 2), the normal dudes are still 1A so youre very unlikely to ever see a 10man squad running with 3 THs.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Slips

[MichaelCarmine]

4 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Tell me, why should i be dumb enough to engage Warder or any other Elie Unit one in one or Points per Points?

 

The difference is, i tried writting such a List at 2500 Points. You dont know how fast you Run Out of Points with Warders, Huscarls + their Transports while your opponent can bring a lot of cheap stuff.

 

 

 

 

That's the thing!!! xD

Warders aren't Elite, they are Troops!  And while you can engage every Elite Unit with an evenly costing Elite Unit - try that with Warders. 

Loved the BatRep from MiniWargaming, where a squad of Deathshrouds with Typhon crashed into a blob of 20 Warders, i think they lost 3 Warders in the end? While killing of Typhon&Company! xD

 

And thats the Message - you leave them be, you best not encounter/ waste good firepower on them and concentrate on the rest. Can you tell me another Troops Choice, where that's the case? =]

 

Well, we all have Battlescribe or an equivalent, so yeah i know! And you still have more than enough Points for everything else. You just don't make the mistake and equip them with stuff, just upgrade the sarge to artificer and maybe a rhino. That's it. That's 270Pts, that'll hold your objectives like nothing else could. You can take alot of damage, retaliate in the shooting phase thanks to BS5 Bolters, and every wound they inflict in melee is ap2... Again, a Troops unit.

 

In my experience, the only people really defending them, or telling me, that they are balanced, are IF Players. 

 

You are even saying it with your own words, you just don't realise it. Warders are too good for their points and you have yet to bring an argument to the table to proove me wrong. 

Let's just keep it that way - i won't convince an IF Player, that their Unit is too good and you won't convince me, that they are balanced. =]

 

[MichaelCarmine]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

....a contemptor lol. One contemptor, even without double melee, can charge and beat 10. As long as they don't have melta bombs. The next notable unit is suzerains, who can pound the squad with their thunder hammer option. 

 

But both are extremely good units, and while dreads are common, they usually match up against other dreads. Lists where every unit needs a very dedicated response or they can't be mitigated are the ones that tend to get more problematic .

Yes, Suzeirans xD I always forget, that they also have line... 

Are you sure about the contemptor? I mean the dread, on average, does about what, 2/3 Brutal 3 wounds depending on the first, or subsequent Assault Phases? Thats about 1/2 dead guys, or not? When they are Stubborn, he should need the whole game to deal with them. xD

Edit: but you're better with percentages, so i trust you in that one =]

 

I mean, imagine the Dread into Terminators worth the same amount of points... he'll slaughter them, if they're not Huscarls or Deliverers xD

Edited February 27, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yes, Suzeirans xD I always forget, that they also have line... 

Are you sure about the contemptor? I mean the dread, on average, does about what, 2/3 Brutal 3 wounds depending on the first, or subsequent Assault Phases? Thats about 1/2 dead guys, or not? When they are Stubborn, he should need the whole game to deal with them. xD

Edit: but you're better with percentages, so i trust you in that one =]

 

I mean, imagine the Dread into Terminators worth the same amount of points... he'll slaughter them, if they're not Huscarls or Deliverers xD

 

I mean ya, it won't be fast or anything, but it'll win in the end. And maybe being locked in combat on an objective forever isn't the worst thing for it.

 

 

[WolfLogic]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:41 AM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

@Gorgoff I don't take it as a personal attack no worries. But just to play devil's advocate. What are your thoughts on an armoured spearhead detachment? Let's say world eaters because we like the paint scheme, the lore of their armored division, and just love tanks. A 2,000 point list can field over 11 tanks, with infantry still in the list, that's only 2 land raider proteus with despoilers and then 9 sicaran and predators with room for upgrades. This army is fundamentally worse to play against than 2-3 dreadnoughts. Yet people don't Seem to think this type of list is toxic, but it can be by no fault of its own. Especially if you run up against an infantry heavy list.

 

Do you not put anti vehichle weaponry in your list when you building your army? I think every list that I have see put up in the army list section of the tactica thread shows that most frater build that into their options. 

 

Having played against AV heavy lists that can field 4+ land raiders and 8-12 sicarans and predators I can assure you it is an up hill battle.

 

 

I know I’m quite late to the discussion but while reading through the thread, your post caught my eye. The difference, to me, is that you should tell your opponent you plan on running an Armored Spearhead list beforehand because it’s kind of all or nothing where as you can slide in a Contemptor or two into a normal list and not necessarily have to worry about if your opponent has an answer for them.

 

That’s my thoughts on the matter anyways.

[MegaVolt87]

1 hour ago, WolfLogic said:

I know I’m quite late to the discussion but while reading through the thread, your post caught my eye. The difference, to me, is that you should tell your opponent you plan on running an Armored Spearhead list beforehand because it’s kind of all or nothing where as you can slide in a Contemptor or two into a normal list and not necessarily have to worry about if your opponent has an answer for them.

 

That’s my thoughts on the matter anyways.

 

I don't think you need that much planning vs armoured breakthrough ROW. You need AT shooting to deal with Legion special units and terminators anyway. The dreads ROW is the one you should be giving a heads up about. 

[ManicMushrooms]

I play IF and wanted to add a comment based on few games with Phalanx Warders. I played few games against just a bunch of friends as we have a pretty small community but we played both small 1,5 k games and 3,5 k games, we also played some Zone Mortallis. Mind though I only have 2 squads of 10 (with Rhino option available).

 

If given all the buffs (apothecaries, Fafrnir, Artificer Armor) they dominate in their role so much the games feel no longer evenly matched. I find them much more fun when not running Stone Gauntlet. On occasions when I want to play stone Gauntlet I leave Apothecaries at home or join other squads. With IF I find it very important to self-regulate as they can very easily dominate a non-competitive environment.

 

That may be partially to the fact that I started my hobbying in 4th edition when power levels were more... levelled? And I generally don't enjoy power gaming.

[MichaelCarmine]

Behold!

 

I have found the best way to deal with Phalanx Warders:

 

1. Convince your opponent to buy Dedidicated Transports for them.

2. Blow their Vehicles up, while they are still inside.

3. They each take a str. 8 hit thanks to the explosion.

4. since they are placed on the table, after the hits/wounds have been resolved, they are - at the time of the hits/wounds - not in base-to-base, nor unit coherrency and can therefore not take advantage of the +1 to their invul, nor the reroll from Stone Gauntlet or eventual FnP (Instant Death).

 

Yes, the chances of blowing up a transport, before wrecking it thru glances is pretty slim, but way better then dealing with Warders outside of the Vehicle on the Battlefield!

 

 

 

 

...this is obviously a joke and should not conclude in someone reporting my post...

 

 

 

 

...please! ^^

[Marshal Mittens]

Gravis plasma cannons seem to do ok? Not in one shot, but shoot 3-4, and you will pick some up. 

[MichaelCarmine]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Gravis plasma cannons seem to do ok? Not in one shot, but shoot 3-4, and you will pick some up. 

Thanks to "Heavy" subtype, they've got 3+/3+/5+++(4+++) against the normal wounds and 4++/4++/5+++(4+++) against the breaching ones... i don't see it, to be honest.

You'd fair better with multiple scorpii - atleast that way, they can't take their FnPs xD

[Gorgoff]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Gravis plasma cannons seem to do ok? Not in one shot, but shoot 3-4, and you will pick some up. 

Lets say you shoot 4 and hit 5 with each.

So 20 total and do 18 wounds. That'll kill 4,5. So you have to shoot 3 times with 4 templates. How many points are that? ^^

Edit: I not even calculated Heavy but only took the rerollable 4++.

That alone is too much.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Gorgoff

[armarnis]

can heavy even reroll invuln saves? always considered it works only for the armor, as it says you may reroll armor saves no? maybe we play it wrong oO